STALLS IN PPL SKILL TEST

[Maoraigh1]

I'm happy with stalling, and frequently practice solo, with and without power and airbrakes, but on checkouts I first check on when the instructor wants me to recover - stall warning, nose drop, etc. Then I try to keep him happy.

[BEagle]

Reduce the AoA then smoothly apply power. Driving out of a stall these days is considered bad form. But hey, what would I know...

Not enough, it would seem.

'Driving out of a stall' refers to the stupidity of FAA Examiners who expected 'TOGA, hold attitude, don't lose an inch', which is a killer in many aircraft.

So the pig-ignorant people-tube drones have been told that reducing AoA is of paramount importance. True. But full power (or thrust) in a typical pod-engined people-tube can aggrevate the stall by inducing a pitch rate which will cause the aircraft to exceed the stall AoA, thereby entering a region of unpredictable behaviour - particularly if the dull sods haven't noticed that the aircraft has trimmed itself continuously to the stall. However, this is NOT true of a typical SEP aeroplane, in which there should never be a reason to trim to less than the gliding speed - except, perhaps, during a deliberate short field approach.

Regrettably, the 'airline' technique appears to be infecting PPL training - a sad situation which must be robustly rejected!

Anyway, Standard Stall Recovery is:

1. Full power and control column centrally forward (keeping the ball in the middle).

2. Stop pitching once the stall warning / ident has ceased - whatever that might be.

3. Level wings and recover from descent.

[S-Works]

Planning on doing an Examiner renewal anytime soon Beagle? enjoy......

[ifitaintboeing]

Standard Stall Recovery:

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/ga_srg_09webHSL02.pdf

Note that the following Safety Notice is for all GA pilots and all aeroplane instructors and examiners:

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/130711_...Techniques.pdf

SRG2128 and Standards Document 19(A) state the types of stall to be expected in the PPL Skills Test:

Recognition and recovery from stalls. A stall in the clean configuration, as detailed below, and at least 2 other stalls from the following series of stalls will be required and the examiner will brief the sequence of these both pre-flight and in the air:

* Stall in clean configuration, fully developed stall entering from straight and level flight, with the throttle(s) closed. The Examiner will nominate when the recovery should begin.

* Approach to stall from an approach configuration, with approach flap setting, gear down and low power. The stall should be initiated from a turn (level or slightly descending with between 10 and 30° AOB) and the applicant must recover at the first symptom of the approaching stall.

* Approach to stall in the landing configuration with full flap, gear down, and low power. The stall should be initiated from straight flight as if established on final approach to land (i.e. not climbing); the applicant must recover at
the first symptom of the approaching stall.

* Approach to stall in a climbing turn with take-off flap and climb power (single-engine aeroplane only) the applicant must recover at the first symptom of the approaching stall.

All recoveries shall be made with the minimum loss of height and returning to a clean climb configuration at VY maintaining directional control.
(The examiner may nominate a heading to be achieved after recovery).

I know it's easy for us to say, but as examiners we really want you to succeed so most of all, relax and complete the exercise as you have been taught.

ifitaint...

[Bornfreee]

www.caa.co.uk/.../130711_SafetyNotice_StallRecoveryTechniques.p.

By Level Attitude.

The aim of a SSR is to recover from a stall/impending stall with minimum
height loss and, to achieve this, full power should be applied at the same
time (or only just slightly behind) the AoA being reduced by moving
the Stick forward.

Before we all go "off on one", I think we are kind of saying the same thing here. The safety notice above is clearly aimed at larger commercial aircraft.

I wholly agree with Level Attitude in that you release the back pressure first (reduce AoA) and almost simultaneously apply full power, if anything the full power application is fractions of a second later hence the common term used of simultaneously.

Anyway, we were supposed to be assisting Scotsonslad, not having a examiners 'standards' meeting here, we have our own thread for that!

[CLOUD999]

That is NOT Standard Stall Recovery for SEP Class aeroplanes (which requires minimum loss of height) - it is (almost, but not quite...) something which has dribbled down from the latest techniques taught to brain-dead airline pilots whose inadequate handling skills have required further instruction.

And further to your explanation to Bose-x regarding pod engines and the ensueing pitch couple when thrust is applied.
Speaking as a 'brain - dead airline pilot examiner' myself you are correct that the technique now trained to airline pilots is to reduce AOA ie reduce pitch until the aircraft is flying again and then apply thrust as required.

The aft trimmed position of stabiliser along with a full thrust pitch moment at high AOA can make stall recovery impossible even with the yoke fully forward, at least until nose down trim is applied. Stab trim itself requires careful use in upset conditions in order not aggravate situations.

Upset recoveries always require the aircraft to be unstalled first, this technique caters for this. Any further upset recovery actions would depend on whether nose hi or low, AOB, IAS lo or high? Increasing or decreasing? oh and lets not forget stab trim position.

Momentum has a huge influence and the flight envelope can be exited very quickly if correct recoveries are not applied.

Oh and lets not forget that various types have there own specific techniques and issues ( airbus control laws, lack of feedback, knowledge of stability in phase of flight eg neutral / positive?)

Beagle you also mention that " pig -ignorant people-tube drones" have been taught that AoA is of paramount importance" I think you are maybe refering to airline pilots again here ?

In any case in all my experience being instructed, instructing and examining whether civil, military, SEP or ME - AoA has indeed always been paramount. The laws of flight never really changed

Aircraft will always stall if the AoA is too high and will always fly again once the AoA is reduced -simple

I can understand why the PPL student who posted originally is so confused and worried about stall recoveries - examiners and instructors here seem unable to agree on when to recover and how!!

Anyway I hope the input of this "brain dead airline pilot" ( probably a good description in my case ) helps

[Gertrude the Wombat]

However, this is NOT true of a typical SEP aeroplane, in which there should never be a reason to trim to less than the gliding speed

I was taught fully aft trim just before landing in a Super Cub - that instructor apparently trusted me not to stall more than he trusted me not to dig the floats in.

[Pace]

That is NOT Standard Stall Recovery for SEP Class aeroplanes (which requires minimum loss of height) - it is (almost, but not quite...) something which has dribbled down from the latest techniques taught to brain-dead airline pilots whose inadequate handling skills have required further instruction

Beagle

Stall recovery with minimal height loss in any aircraft requires a reduction in the AOA.
Try your technique in a Citation and I guarantee you will loose 1000 feet in the recovery as I have tried it.
Power out with thrust (which will automatically reduce AOA ) will result in minimal height loss and is without doubt the better method in a Citation not brain dead airline pilots.
Stall recovery is type specific on a straight winged Citation the engines are high up on the tail! Thrust application wings level holding altitude will result in a reduction of AOA so we ATPLs are not quite as brain dead as you imagine

Pace

[BEagle]

Beagle you also mention that " pig -ignorant people-tube drones" have been taught that AoA is of paramount importance" I think you are maybe refering to airline pilots again here ?

Not all. Just those whose poor handling skills allow their aircraft to achieve an AoA well outside that required for normal operation and who subsequently prove that they've either forgotten the basic aerodynamics of stalling, or were never taught correctly in the first place.

Power out with thrust (which will automatically reduce AOA ) will result in minimal height loss and is without doubt the better method in a Citation...

Oh really?

Anyway, Scotsonslad, the best advice you've been given on this thread is that posted by ifitaintboeing....

[AdamFrisch]

I just did the my two year Bi-Annual Flight Review in my twin and what was new this time was that one had to demonstrate a G-stall in FAA-land. That wasn't the case last time in the PTS. So after the steep turns were done, we did another one where we pulled until she buffeted and stalled. It was a little more dramatic, but the recovery is the same.

Don't know if it's part of the EASA syllabus yet, but you can bet it will be as anything you can shake a stick at under the guise of it being "safer", they will adopt.

[Cows getting bigger]

Hmmmm, a semi-brain dead GA examiner here.

I will fail a candidate who applies power before the centrally forward bit.

I will probably pass an individual who is slightly slow on applying power after reducing AOA.

If I perceive that both are being applied together, I will ask the candidate a couple of probing questions about stalls in order to ensure they know what they are doing and the recovery we have just experienced wasn't down to luck.

[Pace]

Oh really?

Beagle

Absolutely! You will get a large altitude loss with the Citation if you attempt to recover as you would in a light twin or single.
In that aircraft its power out.
But yes a conventional recovery in the majority of piston singles and twins!
Just a point of interest what singles pitch down initially on power application? I was told the lake Amphibian does?

Pace

[englishal]

The aft trimmed position of stabiliser along with a full thrust pitch moment at high AOA can make stall recovery impossible even with the yoke fully forward, at least until nose down trim is applied

This almost happened at Bournemouth when a 737 had the autothrottles go to idle at the top of the approach and the crew didn't notice (as per an Turkish Airlines Amsterdam one). Luckily the crew did notice as the speed decayed through 100 kts (as the AP was trying to hold the glide slope) and they went full power. Trouble was the aeroplane pitched up to over 45 degrees and started rolling 30-40 degrees each side and they *almost* lost it......Scary stuff!

In the Citation, I was taught lower nose to horizon (no lower than) and simultaneously go to Take Off power. Actually one thing I like about the FAA is that they do their stalls to fully developed. I remember stalling the Seneca II at take off power (power on stall). I think we must have had an attitude of about 40 degrees nose up before it stalled!

[foxmoth]

Interesting to see debate going on between examiners! Looking at the CAA docs I would go with Beagle apart from one minor point, Beagle says :-

1. Full power and control column centrally forward UNTIL a pitch attitude is reached at which the stall warning ceases; don't pitch further and ensure you maintain slip indication central at all times.

Personally I would describe it as CC centrally forward and apply full power, this can be simultaneous (as said in the CAA leaflet), but putting it this way round is not only in agreement with the Authorities, but gets the student thinking in the right way that it is CC forward that recovers the stall, not the power.
Bose, if I did a test with you and failed on the stalling I would be showing you the CAA docs and asking you to show me where it says otherwise - how can you examine to a different technique than the CAA recommended one???
Also of course the rider that recommended technique for any particular aircraft should be followed.

[S-Works]

I am not examining to a different standard. I am examining to the standards set. Those are to reduce the AoA and apply power. Sticking the power on and trying to drive out is incorrect.

At my FE renewal in December it was specifically discussed that they want to see the AoA reduced before power is applied. The delay between the reduction in AoA and application if power is at Examiners discretion. But in average spam can the action of reducing AoA and the stall Warner stopping and applying power is a second or so.

[phiggsbroadband]

Hi, the OP does not mention which aircraft he is flying, although I seem to have heard PA28 or C172 mentioned. If he was flying the PA38 Tomahawk
then most stalls usually result in the left wing dropping into a spin, which obviously requires the spin correction technique.

In comparison a C152 can be held continuously in a mushing stall, as long as you use ample rudder to pin the nose on a distant landmark. This results in a continuous loss of height of about 200fpm, which is much the same as the power off glide. and no stall pitch forward occurs.

[Crash one]

I cannot get my head round the amount of Examiner/Insructor mumbo jumbo gibberish that is often spoke on here concerning a simple basic flight maneuver, or non flight to be precise. Every one is saying basicly the same thing (Reduce AoA & increase AS).
Why the poor student can't be taught WHY & HOW the a/c flies until they ACTUALLY understand the basic principle I really don't know.
Blabbering on about technique of recovery only confuses the issue & makes it sound to the un-initiated like wichcraft.
Fra start. It is bloody difficult to apply power in a glider, yet they recover very well. The 172 I was revalidated in last week does a soggy mush full back yoke & is difficult to tell if it's stalled or not. My Emeraude drops the nose very positively along with a wing of it's own choosing. Definately cannot be mistaken.
More understanding is required first, after that, recovery tecnique is MOSTLY obvious, certainly in a SEP.
Someone mentioned podded jets pitching up. To me, perfectly obviously they will, Overhead engined (Teal/PBY) things will pitch down for the same reason. Why does such basic obvious crap need explained? That should be covered at basic first day training.

[Pace]

Crash One

Yes you are correct and the Glider is a good example of how power can be misleading in stall recovery.
Any aircraft will recover From a stall including the jet I fly by pitch alone and tapping into potential energy inherent in the airframe.
We are looking at 2 angles ! Reducing the AOA and gaining back a flow of air over the wings so they fly again and doing that with as little altitude loss as possible.
I brought in that recovery can be type specific! Some will pitch up with power application requiring more counter pitch down by the pilot while others will pitch down with power application requiring less
But point taken

Pace

[b.a. Baracus]

In the exam be sure not to forget the HASELL check. This will normally result in a fail of that section. I know of a couple of people who have made this mistake and it's a real shame.

Also during the stall exercises make sure your lookout is maintained.

[foxmoth]

Bose, if that is correct then the CAA should be issuing new guidelines, and this should have been done BEFORE changing what you examine to, how can they advise applying power simultaneously with forward controls then advise Examiners to fail people who then follow this. I agree trying to "drive"out is wrong, but IMHO the difference is obvious when the pitch down is made.
N.B. Still think power at the same time SHOULD be the correct way for SSR in SEP, not accepting big aircraft techniques where they are not needed.
And Crash, yes, gliders DO recover OK without power, so do powered, but minimum height loss is achieved with power and this is where the appropriate technique for type comes in.

Phiggs - never heard such twaddle, there is a difference between "wing drop" and "wing drop into a spin" if that is happening you are definitely doing something wrong!!