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Harvard' PB at Duxford today

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Harvard' PB at Duxford today

Old 14th Sep 2012, 08:58
  #21 (permalink)  
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Ok!This is beginning to really irritate me.I have laid before you a story,and these are the FACTS;
Aircraft A-Club PA38 on "Finals to land" at 500Ft in 2 way with ATC
Aircraft B Warbird Harvard T6G at Holding Point for 24 in two way with ATC
Profile:PA38-Club Aircraft usually low time PPL -Inexpereienced usually but not in this case!
Profile:Harvard-Expensive Warbird Either Very Experienced PPL or Commercial Pilot and exceedingly experienced.
At the 500Ft point on PA38 Approach, Harvard calls for line up and departure.Taxis on to Runway and lines up.As a T6G he has no hydraulic power lever issue,so all he has to do is taxi forward a few feet and with the stick back,which locks the Tail Wheel.OR there may be a handle that locks the Tailwheel ,as earlier marks .
We descend 400ft to 100ft @300Ft per min so this takes over 60secs.The Harvard is still on the end of the runway,and says nothing.At 100Ft my pilot calls going around.
I assume the Harvard Pilot is not Deaf Dumb Or Blind!!!Therefore with Mk1 Eyeball vision he has seen us.He has 2 way with Air Traffic as we do,so SPATIAL AWARENESS should kick in,that the Aircraft on Finals must be close!!!Absolutely nothing happens in the Harvard Cockpit,to alleviate the matter.
If any of you out there think that is acceptable,I am disgusted.This is the 21st Century.It has already been made plain this sort of event is not uncommon,and we should have bitten our lip and got on with it.Well FLYING MACHINES are very well equipped to kill you,without human interference.If you all dont get a grip on reality you will end up as a statistic.The Standard of Operating Procedures at Duxford seem to be sadly lacking,as other very experienced Pilots have commented on.
so far all that has been achieved is a "Monty Python" muttering among the crowd that" Oh he is a very good chap who could not possibly be responsible,no no rhubarb rhubarb"!Well it did happen ,I assure you and I suspect a very experienced pilot did it!!!It is a serious Flight Safety issue,which should arouse pilot's self preservation instinct if nothing else.This sort of thing should NOT happen,Not at Duxford,NOT ANYWHERE!
I would point out it is only the advices of my colleague who was doing the flying that persuaded me not to take a trip to the "Belgrano".If you dont want the likes of legends,Draper, LLewellyn Jones,etc banging on your door,or to be put in a box,then sharpen up and get a grip.

Last edited by FAStoat; 14th Sep 2012 at 09:01.
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Old 14th Sep 2012, 12:07
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What exactly do you want to hear from your "audience"?

The fact that you

- are apparently still "suffering" from the non-event of having been involved in a light aircraft go-around more than two days ago,
- name, discredit and pass on negative rumours about an individual - without even knowing whether he was the pilot of the other aircraft (not that that would matter),
- still waffle irrelevantly about a Harvard's hydraulic system even though you (still) don't know why it didn't take off (could very well have been a legitimate reason, such as the pilot having a sneeze attack, glasses fell of his nose, an instrument indication of some sort not matching expectations, etc. etc. etc.)
- still mention "ATC" even though an earlier post clarified that there is no such thing at Duxford,
- apparently still haven't called Duxford to find out what happened, despite an invitation to the contrary

is unfortunately starting to discredit you more than whoever was in the Harvard.

Such things happens all the time, all over the place.

I fly from a 400m runway with a public road crossing one threshold and a traffic light regulating crossing traffic. The other day, while #2 to land, I watched #1 go around because a bicyclist decided to disregard the traffic light. No hollering, no screaming and no corresponding postings on the Internet, just a brief "XY going around".

Anyone let loose in aircraft alone (including students) must be fairly assumed to be capable of executing a go-around, whenever required, without loosing control of the aircraft.

I cannot see the drama in this episode, even more so when also considering your apparently significant experience.
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Old 14th Sep 2012, 12:09
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I think you need to go and have a lie down and calm down. We all understood your account the first time, you don't need to spell it out again. If your account is correct it does sound like poor airmanship, but there could be more to the story. Perhaps there was a tech snag and although he planned to roll immediately he had to pause. We don't know and you don't know, so why don't you follow the advice in a previous post and call that number to discuss the issue.

Ranting on here is pointless and publicly naming and shaming a particular pilot when you are not even sure if it was him operating is extremely poor form.
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Old 14th Sep 2012, 12:26
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Just a quick general post in support of Duxford's Tower and personnel. We have flown into Duxford a few times just recently and I have to say, with my albeit VERY limited experience of FISOs and ATC, the guys at Duxford are great, even when this particular student messes up her RT readback procedures!!
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Old 14th Sep 2012, 13:30
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Threads like this one are what make PPRuNe great, and why I keep visiting.
Keep it up folks!
Seriously though - what's concerning me is that the OP clearly is not a wind up. What planet is he on?

H
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Old 14th Sep 2012, 13:47
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here is an example of conduct that two Ex Training Captains witnessed today,whilst transiting from Elstree to Duxford,to attend an Airline Reunion of old Pilots.
More Trident talk?

Did you make a further call when the Harvard said he was lining up? I don't condone the Harvard crew's actions, but honestly it is possible they didn't hear you on the R/T (even though the FISO obviously did) It is possible the radio violume was turned down to brief the run-up or indeed any other multitude of reasons. However a good lookout you think you may be, there is ALWAYS the opportunity to miss traffic, even on final at 500'. This is also possibly the case. Perhaps the FISO could have suggested (I am aware of the constraints of a FISO) there was traffic on short final.

I've had the pleasure of operating in and out of Duxford many a time, fantastic place. I have to say I've always received a friendly service from them. Sorry to hear some of you won't be going back. The museum needs all the funds they can get. Oh, and JR is a real gent. He restored a Chippy I was involved in years ago.

I trust the white kid leather gloves kept the sweat at bay during the ensuing go-around in the Tomahawk!

Last edited by 500 above; 14th Sep 2012 at 13:53.
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Old 14th Sep 2012, 13:54
  #27 (permalink)  

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What most of us would do:

"Golf Victor Golf, going around"

vs. this:

"Golf Victor Meldrew.............I don't belieeeeeeeeeeeeeve it! - have you any idea who I am? I've a good mind to complain to the CAA. I want the tapes from Duxford Radar pulled immeeeeeediately! I demand to speak to the approach controller!.....going around. Under protest. Just wait till I get onto PPRuNe..."
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Old 14th Sep 2012, 14:05
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Fastoat,

The Harvard is still on the end of the runway,and says nothing.At 100Ft my pilot calls going around.
Have you considered the chap/chapess in the T6 might have had a problem? It even happens in the CAT world.. Your pilot did exactly the right thing and went around. 'Drama' avoided (although not apparently on this forum)

Get over it and move on..

Last edited by 'Chuffer' Dandridge; 14th Sep 2012 at 14:07.
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Old 14th Sep 2012, 14:06
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Originally Posted by eharding
Golf Victor Meldrew...
That's just perfect.
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Old 14th Sep 2012, 14:56
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Just think, this whole thread may have been avoided if the T6 pilot had said 'Sorry about that' over the R/T

Similar thing happended to me a few years back at Bembridge. The preceding aircraft was a touch and go who changed his mind on the runway and converted it into a landing and backtrack. I got an extra circuit in the Yak and he appologised over the radio. Job done, no one injured and no reason for me to go and duff him up (physically, verbally or in print on a forum).

I guess the OP is more concerned that the T6 pilot was either completely unaware of what was going on around him or not prepared to admit to a mistake. But I would suggest that this method of obtaining satisfaction is a bit over the top.
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Old 14th Sep 2012, 15:55
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Inconvenienced? Yes. Danger? No. That is unless you steamed up the screen with all that hot air. I can just see the bulging neck muscles and the veins standing out. Perhaps a heart attack risk?

Gawd knows what the drive to the airport was like.

D.O.
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Old 14th Sep 2012, 17:22
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FAStoat, I really think u need to visit the Belgrano for some anger management courses........
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Old 14th Sep 2012, 18:21
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I flew out of Duxford for one or two years so feel reasonably qualified to comment.

My comment is why didn't you saunter down to ARC and have a cup of tea with the pilot concerned to find out what was the hiccup his end? Was there a prob with his pax/student? Was there a problem with his aircraft/engine? Was there a problem with his radio? A 'one to one' between gentlemen would have sorted this out in a heartbeat without berating someone via this website.

Take some chill pills and enjoy your weekend.

Alan Walker
(Happy to identify myself)
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Old 14th Sep 2012, 18:32
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And all this started by the passenger!

2 s
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Old 14th Sep 2012, 20:29
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Al Walker's comment summarises my feelings nicely as to what should have happend. But there's still time for a phone call, if FAStoat wants to find out the other side of the story.

Guys, Duxford hasn't been perfect in the past and probably won't be in the future, but if you want to find out what the best active aviation museum (in Europe??) is all about, give us a call and fly in. If you have a grievance from the past, come and tell us about it. We're all human beings, we sometimes make mistakes, but we love our jobs, we care and we want you to enjoy Duxford.

Alan.
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Old 14th Sep 2012, 20:45
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FAStoat

A little care with presentation such as paragraphs and indents would have made your posts far more readable.

Me, I skimmed them and gave up.

I have been flying in to Duxford for nearly 20 years and have got nothing but courtesy from the ATCers.

I might go so far as to suggest that, having lined up the Harvard had a problem and couldn't go immediately.

It was not the ATCer's fault that you got no apology from the pilot.

So quit bleating on here and as Alan says,ring the Duxford number.

Cusco
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Old 14th Sep 2012, 20:51
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Ok!This is beginning to really irritate me.I have laid before you a story,and these are the FACTS;
Aircraft A-Club PA38 on "Finals to land" at 500Ft in 2 way with ATC
...
I think that this first one at least is in fact not a fact, on account of there is no ATC at Duxford?
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Old 14th Sep 2012, 21:07
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This is an astonishing thread.

I welcome the chance to show off my piloting skills and ability to adapt to changing situations. People can block my approach anytime.
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Old 14th Sep 2012, 21:08
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If FAStoat operates an aircraft the way he operates a keyboard, I fear for his passengers, whether private or fare paying!
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Old 14th Sep 2012, 21:39
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I go into Duxford fairly often and have found them really helpful.

But I have also learned that when warbirds are about you do need to stand off a bit.

Personally I hate it when on short finals someone creeps on to the runway or cuts me up on the approach. I generally have a quiet word with them afterwards, though have been surprised just how many don't accept they have done anything wrong.

I do wonder if some warbird pilots have a sense of entitlement and feel they don't have to obey the normal rules of the air. That said, some of them are the nicest pilots I have met.
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