Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Non-Airline Forums > Private Flying
Reload this Page >

Harvard' PB at Duxford today

Private Flying LAA/BMAA/BGA/BPA The sheer pleasure of flight.

Harvard' PB at Duxford today

Old 14th Sep 2012, 08:58
  #21 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Hampshire
Age: 77
Posts: 210
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Ok!This is beginning to really irritate me.I have laid before you a story,and these are the FACTS;
Aircraft A-Club PA38 on "Finals to land" at 500Ft in 2 way with ATC
Aircraft B Warbird Harvard T6G at Holding Point for 24 in two way with ATC
Profile:PA38-Club Aircraft usually low time PPL -Inexpereienced usually but not in this case!
Profile:Harvard-Expensive Warbird Either Very Experienced PPL or Commercial Pilot and exceedingly experienced.
At the 500Ft point on PA38 Approach, Harvard calls for line up and departure.Taxis on to Runway and lines up.As a T6G he has no hydraulic power lever issue,so all he has to do is taxi forward a few feet and with the stick back,which locks the Tail Wheel.OR there may be a handle that locks the Tailwheel ,as earlier marks .
We descend 400ft to 100ft @300Ft per min so this takes over 60secs.The Harvard is still on the end of the runway,and says nothing.At 100Ft my pilot calls going around.
I assume the Harvard Pilot is not Deaf Dumb Or Blind!!!Therefore with Mk1 Eyeball vision he has seen us.He has 2 way with Air Traffic as we do,so SPATIAL AWARENESS should kick in,that the Aircraft on Finals must be close!!!Absolutely nothing happens in the Harvard Cockpit,to alleviate the matter.
If any of you out there think that is acceptable,I am disgusted.This is the 21st Century.It has already been made plain this sort of event is not uncommon,and we should have bitten our lip and got on with it.Well FLYING MACHINES are very well equipped to kill you,without human interference.If you all dont get a grip on reality you will end up as a statistic.The Standard of Operating Procedures at Duxford seem to be sadly lacking,as other very experienced Pilots have commented on.
so far all that has been achieved is a "Monty Python" muttering among the crowd that" Oh he is a very good chap who could not possibly be responsible,no no rhubarb rhubarb"!Well it did happen ,I assure you and I suspect a very experienced pilot did it!!!It is a serious Flight Safety issue,which should arouse pilot's self preservation instinct if nothing else.This sort of thing should NOT happen,Not at Duxford,NOT ANYWHERE!
I would point out it is only the advices of my colleague who was doing the flying that persuaded me not to take a trip to the "Belgrano".If you dont want the likes of legends,Draper, LLewellyn Jones,etc banging on your door,or to be put in a box,then sharpen up and get a grip.

Last edited by FAStoat; 14th Sep 2012 at 09:01.
FAStoat is offline  
Old 14th Sep 2012, 12:07
  #22 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Munich, Germany
Posts: 248
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
What exactly do you want to hear from your "audience"?

The fact that you

- are apparently still "suffering" from the non-event of having been involved in a light aircraft go-around more than two days ago,
- name, discredit and pass on negative rumours about an individual - without even knowing whether he was the pilot of the other aircraft (not that that would matter),
- still waffle irrelevantly about a Harvard's hydraulic system even though you (still) don't know why it didn't take off (could very well have been a legitimate reason, such as the pilot having a sneeze attack, glasses fell of his nose, an instrument indication of some sort not matching expectations, etc. etc. etc.)
- still mention "ATC" even though an earlier post clarified that there is no such thing at Duxford,
- apparently still haven't called Duxford to find out what happened, despite an invitation to the contrary

is unfortunately starting to discredit you more than whoever was in the Harvard.

Such things happens all the time, all over the place.

I fly from a 400m runway with a public road crossing one threshold and a traffic light regulating crossing traffic. The other day, while #2 to land, I watched #1 go around because a bicyclist decided to disregard the traffic light. No hollering, no screaming and no corresponding postings on the Internet, just a brief "XY going around".

Anyone let loose in aircraft alone (including students) must be fairly assumed to be capable of executing a go-around, whenever required, without loosing control of the aircraft.

I cannot see the drama in this episode, even more so when also considering your apparently significant experience.
EDMJ is offline  
Old 14th Sep 2012, 12:09
  #23 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 816
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I think you need to go and have a lie down and calm down. We all understood your account the first time, you don't need to spell it out again. If your account is correct it does sound like poor airmanship, but there could be more to the story. Perhaps there was a tech snag and although he planned to roll immediately he had to pause. We don't know and you don't know, so why don't you follow the advice in a previous post and call that number to discuss the issue.

Ranting on here is pointless and publicly naming and shaming a particular pilot when you are not even sure if it was him operating is extremely poor form.
Torque Tonight is offline  
Old 14th Sep 2012, 12:26
  #24 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Lincolnshire
Posts: 280
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Just a quick general post in support of Duxford's Tower and personnel. We have flown into Duxford a few times just recently and I have to say, with my albeit VERY limited experience of FISOs and ATC, the guys at Duxford are great, even when this particular student messes up her RT readback procedures!!
Grob Queen is offline  
Old 14th Sep 2012, 13:30
  #25 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Mare Imbrium
Posts: 638
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Threads like this one are what make PPRuNe great, and why I keep visiting.
Keep it up folks!
Seriously though - what's concerning me is that the OP clearly is not a wind up. What planet is he on?

Heston is offline  
Old 14th Sep 2012, 13:47
  #26 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Delsey
Posts: 744
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
here is an example of conduct that two Ex Training Captains witnessed today,whilst transiting from Elstree to Duxford,to attend an Airline Reunion of old Pilots.
More Trident talk?

Did you make a further call when the Harvard said he was lining up? I don't condone the Harvard crew's actions, but honestly it is possible they didn't hear you on the R/T (even though the FISO obviously did) It is possible the radio violume was turned down to brief the run-up or indeed any other multitude of reasons. However a good lookout you think you may be, there is ALWAYS the opportunity to miss traffic, even on final at 500'. This is also possibly the case. Perhaps the FISO could have suggested (I am aware of the constraints of a FISO) there was traffic on short final.

I've had the pleasure of operating in and out of Duxford many a time, fantastic place. I have to say I've always received a friendly service from them. Sorry to hear some of you won't be going back. The museum needs all the funds they can get. Oh, and JR is a real gent. He restored a Chippy I was involved in years ago.

I trust the white kid leather gloves kept the sweat at bay during the ensuing go-around in the Tomahawk!

Last edited by 500 above; 14th Sep 2012 at 13:53.
500 above is offline  
Old 14th Sep 2012, 13:54
  #27 (permalink)  

A little less conversation,
a little more aviation...
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Bracknell, UK
Posts: 696
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
What most of us would do:

"Golf Victor Golf, going around"

vs. this:

"Golf Victor Meldrew.............I don't belieeeeeeeeeeeeeve it! - have you any idea who I am? I've a good mind to complain to the CAA. I want the tapes from Duxford Radar pulled immeeeeeediately! I demand to speak to the approach controller!.....going around. Under protest. Just wait till I get onto PPRuNe..."
eharding is offline  
Old 14th Sep 2012, 14:05
  #28 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: ...back of the drag curve
Age: 59
Posts: 558
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts

The Harvard is still on the end of the runway,and says nothing.At 100Ft my pilot calls going around.
Have you considered the chap/chapess in the T6 might have had a problem? It even happens in the CAT world.. Your pilot did exactly the right thing and went around. 'Drama' avoided (although not apparently on this forum)

Get over it and move on..

Last edited by 'Chuffer' Dandridge; 14th Sep 2012 at 14:07.
'Chuffer' Dandridge is offline  
Old 14th Sep 2012, 14:06
  #29 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 601
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by eharding
Golf Victor Meldrew...
That's just perfect.
BossEyed is offline  
Old 14th Sep 2012, 14:56
  #30 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: southeast UK
Posts: 232
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Just think, this whole thread may have been avoided if the T6 pilot had said 'Sorry about that' over the R/T

Similar thing happended to me a few years back at Bembridge. The preceding aircraft was a touch and go who changed his mind on the runway and converted it into a landing and backtrack. I got an extra circuit in the Yak and he appologised over the radio. Job done, no one injured and no reason for me to go and duff him up (physically, verbally or in print on a forum).

I guess the OP is more concerned that the T6 pilot was either completely unaware of what was going on around him or not prepared to admit to a mistake. But I would suggest that this method of obtaining satisfaction is a bit over the top.
Vino Collapso is offline  
Old 14th Sep 2012, 15:55
  #31 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: 18nm NE grice 28ft up
Posts: 1,129
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Inconvenienced? Yes. Danger? No. That is unless you steamed up the screen with all that hot air. I can just see the bulging neck muscles and the veins standing out. Perhaps a heart attack risk?

Gawd knows what the drive to the airport was like.

dont overfil is offline  
Old 14th Sep 2012, 17:22
  #32 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 1998
Location: south coast
Posts: 417
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
FAStoat, I really think u need to visit the Belgrano for some anger management courses........
Barcli is offline  
Old 14th Sep 2012, 18:21
  #33 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Chilterns/Blighty
Posts: 478
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I flew out of Duxford for one or two years so feel reasonably qualified to comment.

My comment is why didn't you saunter down to ARC and have a cup of tea with the pilot concerned to find out what was the hiccup his end? Was there a prob with his pax/student? Was there a problem with his aircraft/engine? Was there a problem with his radio? A 'one to one' between gentlemen would have sorted this out in a heartbeat without berating someone via this website.

Take some chill pills and enjoy your weekend.

Alan Walker
(Happy to identify myself)
Fokkerwokker is offline  
Old 14th Sep 2012, 18:32
  #34 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: South of England
Posts: 1,164
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
And all this started by the passenger!

2 s
2 sheds is offline  
Old 14th Sep 2012, 20:29
  #35 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: united kingdom
Posts: 355
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Al Walker's comment summarises my feelings nicely as to what should have happend. But there's still time for a phone call, if FAStoat wants to find out the other side of the story.

Guys, Duxford hasn't been perfect in the past and probably won't be in the future, but if you want to find out what the best active aviation museum (in Europe??) is all about, give us a call and fly in. If you have a grievance from the past, come and tell us about it. We're all human beings, we sometimes make mistakes, but we love our jobs, we care and we want you to enjoy Duxford.

alphaalpha is offline  
Old 14th Sep 2012, 20:45
  #36 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: E Anglia
Posts: 1,102
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts

A little care with presentation such as paragraphs and indents would have made your posts far more readable.

Me, I skimmed them and gave up.

I have been flying in to Duxford for nearly 20 years and have got nothing but courtesy from the ATCers.

I might go so far as to suggest that, having lined up the Harvard had a problem and couldn't go immediately.

It was not the ATCer's fault that you got no apology from the pilot.

So quit bleating on here and as Alan says,ring the Duxford number.

Cusco is offline  
Old 14th Sep 2012, 20:51
  #37 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Cambridge, England, EU
Posts: 3,443
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Ok!This is beginning to really irritate me.I have laid before you a story,and these are the FACTS;
Aircraft A-Club PA38 on "Finals to land" at 500Ft in 2 way with ATC
I think that this first one at least is in fact not a fact, on account of there is no ATC at Duxford?
Gertrude the Wombat is offline  
Old 14th Sep 2012, 21:07
  #38 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
This is an astonishing thread.

I welcome the chance to show off my piloting skills and ability to adapt to changing situations. People can block my approach anytime.
juliet india mike is offline  
Old 14th Sep 2012, 21:08
  #39 (permalink)  

Sub Judice Angel Lovegod
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: London
Posts: 2,454
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
If FAStoat operates an aircraft the way he operates a keyboard, I fear for his passengers, whether private or fare paying!
Timothy is offline  
Old 14th Sep 2012, 21:39
  #40 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Not a million miles from EGTF
Age: 67
Posts: 1,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I go into Duxford fairly often and have found them really helpful.

But I have also learned that when warbirds are about you do need to stand off a bit.

Personally I hate it when on short finals someone creeps on to the runway or cuts me up on the approach. I generally have a quiet word with them afterwards, though have been surprised just how many don't accept they have done anything wrong.

I do wonder if some warbird pilots have a sense of entitlement and feel they don't have to obey the normal rules of the air. That said, some of them are the nicest pilots I have met.
robin is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information

Copyright © 2023 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.