unprofessional flying
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 381
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From: Scotland
Piperboy, Leuchars have radar and can see most traffic to affect so will be best placed to know if there's traffic for you to know about. They also talk regularly with the guys in the Dundee tower. If I was flying in that area I'd be talking to Leuchars until I was west of Broughty castle and below 2000ft or I was going in to Dundee.
That said, you can tell Leuchars to shove off and change to Dundee if you like there
Crash one, it's a bit of a complicated situation there because Fife is so close but what you're basically suggesting is that it's bad airmanship to fly within 10 miles of a gliding site. I know that the gliders like to soar on west lomond but you weren't over there doing spins and it really is anyones airspace. Gliders can be just about anywhere round Scotland so long as you're following sensible airmanship, RT and lookout there's no reason to be upset about it. Flying right over the field below 3000 ft without talking to them is poor airmanship though, if that's what she did then it was a bit silly. Any time I tried to talk to portmoak all I got was silence so perhaps that's where the attitude came from.
That said, you can tell Leuchars to shove off and change to Dundee if you like there
Crash one, it's a bit of a complicated situation there because Fife is so close but what you're basically suggesting is that it's bad airmanship to fly within 10 miles of a gliding site. I know that the gliders like to soar on west lomond but you weren't over there doing spins and it really is anyones airspace. Gliders can be just about anywhere round Scotland so long as you're following sensible airmanship, RT and lookout there's no reason to be upset about it. Flying right over the field below 3000 ft without talking to them is poor airmanship though, if that's what she did then it was a bit silly. Any time I tried to talk to portmoak all I got was silence so perhaps that's where the attitude came from.
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 412
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From: Unna, Germany
@BPF: And my experience is that if I can't demonstrate a least class C transponder my local FIS don't care - unless I might have been busting some airspace of course. If they have no more interest in me, then surely I am not going to bend over backwards to please them.
One Saturday in particular I called Langen Information, having first heard this poor overworked air traffic controller saying "call you back" to everyone. Sure enough, she repeated my call sign, told me she would call me back and 8 minutes later, did so. Although her workload was so heavy, she was still prepared to offer traffic services and gave me warnings of potential conflicts....
In any case, flying with the added assurance that an air traffic controller is watching over you surely outweighs any minimal risk of appearing a right dork on the radio - after all, I'd rather be thought a dork and increase my safety than stay quiet and increase my chances of a mid air incident......
Not only that, the more frequently you speak with ATC, the more proficient your calls become.... My one key rule: Think about what you want to say to them in advance, plan it in your head, think what they will say back to you and what your response should be - if you're new to radio, run it through your head so that a question from them doesn't surprise you.
It's just plain annoying for them when you call them and, once they have acknowledged your call, you come back with something like "Golf-Echo-X X X, Cessna 182, ahhh.... VFR, errrr......Altitude uhm 4000 feet, uhm..... ahh....... position is....... ahm..... wait a minute....... uhh....... where are we now?" and block the frequency....
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 412
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From: Unna, Germany
It's always been a mystery to me why parachute planes can't broadcast a warning on the local FIS frequency five minutes before tipping out their cargo into uncontrolled airspace.
Anybody from from the parachute world know why not?
Anybody from from the parachute world know why not?
If, by local FIS, you mean the actual airfield frequency (call sign info), in Germany we receive a 2 minute warning about Parachute Jumpers *if* they are landing on the field. If they land (eg) to the north of the field outside of the traffic pattern, there are no warnings given, the warnings are to ensure that, when the jumpers drop, no props on aircraft are turning (although to be honest, I can't remember whether the Pilatus had it's turbine turned off when they were landing).....
So even if it were transmitted on the local airfield frequency, you would be requiring the aircraft in the air first to have 2 radios (no leaving the FIS frequency without approval
) and constantly selecting the next airfield frequency you are approaching to listen in, just in case.....
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,291
Likes: 2
From: GLASGOW
My question is as follows, do military controllers and civilian ATC work seamlessly and do hand offs and exchange traffic info? Should I have treated the Leuchars MATZ transition much the same way I do a basic vfr “flight following” type service from Scottish Information on routes that do not involve MATZ transitions assuming basically that my service continues even after i have left the MATZ? Would the Leuchars controller have advised Dundee that I was skirting their airspace and this would explain why Dundee felt that there was no need to talk to them and requested me to “stay with Leuchars? even though I was out of the MATZ
Leuchers also tried that with a colleague of mine, recently, and I told him to QSY immediately to Dundee, as he was on course, still speaking with Leuchers, to go overhead Dundee.
And they had that demented harpie
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
From: UK,Twighlight Zone
DZ's have there own common frequency, 129.9 and all drops are called two minutes ready to drop and drop complete descending.
There is no policy for having props stopped when there are canopies in the air, if we did that we would never get any work done. We asking visiting private pilots to do so as its easier than worrying what they are doing as they don't know where to look for the canopies, we do.
Pretty much every DZ I know of also works a local FIS/RADAR unit and the calls are also made to them on the frequency. Short of announcing on London Info which would make the frequency rather more busy than it already is and would be highly confusing when you consider the sheer volume of DZ traffic and the fact the London Info is rebroadcast across the entire frequency there is not much more we can do!!
It's not difficult, read the map, talk to the DZ or the local radar/FIS unit and keep out the way!
There is no policy for having props stopped when there are canopies in the air, if we did that we would never get any work done. We asking visiting private pilots to do so as its easier than worrying what they are doing as they don't know where to look for the canopies, we do.
Pretty much every DZ I know of also works a local FIS/RADAR unit and the calls are also made to them on the frequency. Short of announcing on London Info which would make the frequency rather more busy than it already is and would be highly confusing when you consider the sheer volume of DZ traffic and the fact the London Info is rebroadcast across the entire frequency there is not much more we can do!!
It's not difficult, read the map, talk to the DZ or the local radar/FIS unit and keep out the way!
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,291
Likes: 2
From: GLASGOW
It's not difficult, read the map, talk to the DZ or the local radar/FIS unit and keep out the way!
The welcome at Strathallen, post Wullie days, was a sawn off shotgun. They tried for a while to civvy up, put in a cafe, but posted rotweillers at the door to ward off unassuming aviators.
Was the most beautiful of airfields, but went rarely due to the 'welcoming committee.
Perranporth seem a receptive, knowledgeable and well rounded sort, for para droppers that is
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,977
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From: Glens o' Angus by way of LA
MJ
LOL I had forgot all about her till now, she was right piece of work, I remember getting multiple bollockings from her back in the mid 90's . I remember once i was flying a Varga Kachina in the pattern and she gave a student a traffic advisory for a Varga knowing full well the student would not have a clue what that was ( she didn't either) but when the student enquired what that was she gave him a real deep breathe sighing tut tut response like he was a complete moron.
Yeap she was a friggin nightmare
And they had that demented harpie
Yeap she was a friggin nightmare
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,129
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From: 18nm NE grice 28ft up
Was the most beautiful of airfields, but went rarely due to the 'welcoming committee
However don't turn up un announced. But that is the case for nearly every private or ordinary licence airport.
The only difference is I'm too polite to bollock you.
D.O.
Last edited by dont overfil; 3rd September 2012 at 19:18.
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 519
Likes: 16
From: Luton
Perhaps someone older than me could satisfy my curiosity; before online NOTAMs if one was at a small airfield in the middle of nowhere how did one get them, did you just call someone up for a briefing?
Most airfields and glider sites subscribed to a twice weekly list of NOTAMs that arrived by post. It was typically 70 to 100 pages long. This would be kept in a prominent position available to all pilots.
P.S. I started flying light aircraft in the early '70s and was expected by my instructor to check through the list of NOTAMs if we were going to leave the circuit.
Most airfields and glider sites subscribed to a twice weekly list of NOTAMs that arrived by post. It was typically 70 to 100 pages long. This would be kept in a prominent position available to all pilots.
P.S. I started flying light aircraft in the early '70s and was expected by my instructor to check through the list of NOTAMs if we were going to leave the circuit.
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 22
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From: FINNINGLEY
As far as I can see a DZ is an area where permission has been granted to drop parachutists, it is not controlled, restricted, prohibited or protected for this purpose at all. The parachutist and the pilot have equal right to be there, however the Caa advise that pilots do not fly through unless they can be sure it is cold. It could be a very unfortunate mistake for parachutists to believe they have any overriding right to exclusive use of a DZ.
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,486
Likes: 8
From: The No Transgression Zone
Unprofessional Flying
Yep...we've all done it at times---Before quick hop around the pattern we all do performance, weight and balance and a full weather briefing and file a flight plan....
Always do the 'preflight' though...
Always do the 'preflight' though...
Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 165
Likes: 0
From: UK
Errol is listed in the AIP as well as depicted on charts.
Prior to the aircraft taking off for the first lift of the day the following are informed of max alt and when we will finish
(which is 1800 local at the latest)
Scottish
Leuchars
Dundee
Perth
After jumping has finished they are called again and infromed that we are complete for the day.
On lifting the pilot calls Dundee with the flights details ie dropping hieght and remains on Dundees freq
2 mins prior to drop the pilot informs Dundee and gets clearance from the DZ on the 129.90. ( the pilot monitors 2 radios at all times)
After drop he calls Dundee that the drop is complete and descending.
Pilot also calls Dundee on short finals to Errol.
So if your on Dundee freq you,ll here us and know whats going on. Dundee will also tell you if our aircraft is on the ground and were not jumping.
Moreoil: On reading your last post. i hope that were ever you fly you never leave the circut. Thats a pretty s**t atitude for any pilot.
Heres something for you to ponder. If you fly through and active DZ and a parachutist hits you who do you think will be the one that the CAA take to court. Thats if they live of course.
Prior to the aircraft taking off for the first lift of the day the following are informed of max alt and when we will finish
(which is 1800 local at the latest)
Scottish
Leuchars
Dundee
Perth
After jumping has finished they are called again and infromed that we are complete for the day.
On lifting the pilot calls Dundee with the flights details ie dropping hieght and remains on Dundees freq
2 mins prior to drop the pilot informs Dundee and gets clearance from the DZ on the 129.90. ( the pilot monitors 2 radios at all times)
After drop he calls Dundee that the drop is complete and descending.
Pilot also calls Dundee on short finals to Errol.
So if your on Dundee freq you,ll here us and know whats going on. Dundee will also tell you if our aircraft is on the ground and were not jumping.
Moreoil: On reading your last post. i hope that were ever you fly you never leave the circut. Thats a pretty s**t atitude for any pilot.
Heres something for you to ponder. If you fly through and active DZ and a parachutist hits you who do you think will be the one that the CAA take to court. Thats if they live of course.