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unprofessional flying

Old 5th Sep 2012, 16:20
  #121 (permalink)  
 
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D.O - The main point, highlighted by me on post 49, and re-iterated by many, NO ONE IS EVER THERE

Dundee has its own control zone, and anyone encrouching is going to be talking to Dundee, otherwise they will bust the Dundee zone.

What good would a phone number do, when no one is there to answer the bloody thing

Dundee ATZ is 2nm radius but their instrument approach goes 10 nm east in class G and into the Perth ATZ. But you have seen the notam which has been in place for 6 months.

Phone conversations are back and forwards with Perth every half flyable weekend. 01821 642454 is the CURRENT number. Radio 129.90.

D.O.

Last edited by dont overfil; 5th Sep 2012 at 16:27.
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Old 5th Sep 2012, 17:07
  #122 (permalink)  
10W

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When's the AIRPROX report due out between the Dundee outbound Dornier 328 and the Errol paradrop aircraft ? I believe the Dornier crew had a strong TCAS message and got a bit of a scare. If both were on the Dundee frequency, something has gone a bit wrong somewhere, since they should have been aware of each other and seen and avoided. (OK, technically, they did )
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Old 5th Sep 2012, 20:11
  #123 (permalink)  
 
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Sorry Crash one, obviously crossed wires. I thought you were being very hard on the Instructors given I know most of the ones that were there at the time and I knew of none that were either bad or unsafe . I'm pretty sensitive about that because some people think instructors are meant to know everything and react very badly if the experience differs. It's not easy flying with these old geezers who've been flying for ages and never tell you what they think is going on.
I said I'd been flying on & off for some time, I've been solo (Ex 14) four times, between gliders & 152s, never got it finished.
For a student pilot to try to tell an instructor what they think, or have an opinion, is tantamount to sacriledge. The only safe way to behave is to shut your big mouth & go through the mill like everyone else. To mention any previous stick time of any kind prior to starting the course made me feel like a knowall, so I said sod all. That is only my feelings & I am probably wrong.
Obviously Instructors know a bloody sight more than I do, those I mentioned were not wafflers, they were very good, but I have come across a couple of . No names , no pack drill. They weren't at Fife by the way, one of them put the fear of living shit up a, never flown before, female in a glider.
Apology accepted by the way.
As for the airmanship thing, I have been reliably informed by the CFI that Portmoak is a 7days a week operation. Their field of concentrated ops extends a long way from the field. Wx minima are a lot less than mine. As are those of the organ donors. So the chance of me coming across such a site in non flyable wx is remote, hence MY " wouldn't go near them" attitude.
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Old 5th Sep 2012, 20:55
  #124 (permalink)  
 
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For a student pilot to try to tell an instructor what they think, or have an opinion, is tantamount to sacriledge. The only safe way to behave is to shut your big mouth & go through the mill like everyone else.
Hmm, I know that's what people feel but I try to encourage any student of mine to ask questions or make suggestions.

It's extremely upsetting when you hear of a student/licence holder who disagrees with you but waited till after you weren't in the room to say "that was not correct, shocking behaviour" etc etc. rather than discussing it in the debrief or in the air over something relatively small but clearly distressed them. It's only happened once to me so far and I took it far too personally. Next time you fly with an instructor for your Biennial and they do something you disagree with, tell them, they will appreciate it and they will probably learn a bit more than normal.

What you describe is not dissimilar to flying with Captains from certain Eastern countries who believe they know and see everything and require the FO merely to operate the radio, fill in the paperwork and do any other donkey work required. We got into what I would consider to be a very dangerous situation, wont allow it any more.
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Old 5th Sep 2012, 21:47
  #125 (permalink)  
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DB6: try this

http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadba...2012-07-26.pdf

Mad Jock: I dont know what happened in the past but Dundee will regulary route traffic through the overhead when they know were not jumping or when the aircraft is on the ground. We dont have a problem with that.

10W: Ref the airprox. The parachute aircraft was on Dundee freq at all times. Dundee were called 2 mins to commencing the drop, and drop complete and descending. Both calls were acknowledged by Dundee. Why the " professional" crew of the Dornier got a scare Ive no idea.

Floppy

Last edited by floppyjock; 5th Sep 2012 at 21:48.
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Old 5th Sep 2012, 22:22
  #126 (permalink)  
 
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Its not controlled airspace.

Dundee can pass information on the activity of the site but as such they can't route traffic through it and neither can they stop traffic flying through it.

Its always had a bad reputation when jumping in progress but as DB6 states thankfully thats not very often. But its very hard to find out if jumping is going to be occuring until you get close. Then there is the debate about how much room round the place you need to go. I have heard aircraft on the otherside of the Tay going to fife get a mouthful from the jump plane pilot. If you stuck to the 1.5 mile radius nobody would have a problem but if anyone comes with 5 miles of the place all hell lets loose. And wed-sun during daylight hours is a load of rubbish. Do the RC lot and the birds of prey still get there knickers in a twist if anything goes near it?

They will have got scared because the TCAS will have got triggered by the rate of closure coupled with your desent rate and the crew won't have been visual with you.

So was the aircraft right overhead or was it 2 miles away and outside the 1.5 miles as stipulated. If the wind is such that you require more room quite frankly tough if its not safe don't drop you don't drop.

Last edited by mad_jock; 5th Sep 2012 at 22:22.
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Old 5th Sep 2012, 23:53
  #127 (permalink)  
 
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What type of aircarft is used for para-dropping at Errol?
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Old 6th Sep 2012, 09:13
  #128 (permalink)  
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fj, the link doesn't work. What's it about?
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Old 6th Sep 2012, 09:27
  #129 (permalink)  
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Worked OK for me...its an extract from the AIP listing all the drop zones, glider sites etc and their contact details.
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Old 6th Sep 2012, 10:04
  #130 (permalink)  
10W

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airpolice

That's the one.

floppyjock

Ref the airprox. The parachute aircraft was on Dundee freq at all times. Dundee were called 2 mins to commencing the drop, and drop complete and descending. Both calls were acknowledged by Dundee. Why the " professional" crew of the Dornier got a scare Ive no idea.
Can't prejudge the Airprox report, but presumably the drop aircraft would also be aware of the Dornier and use the information to their advantage as well. I suspect the Dornier crew got a scare as they routed well to the North of the drop zone (as per the CAA chart) and weren't expecting to encounter a rapidly descending aircraft about 5 miles away from Errol and outside the promulgated area ?
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Old 6th Sep 2012, 10:09
  #131 (permalink)  
 
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The eurocontrol sometimes gets over loaded and comes back bad gateway or the like.

If you try a while later it will work again.

If its coming up not found its more than likely a problem with your ISP which will self heal in 6 hours. If it doesn't change your DNS server.
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Old 6th Sep 2012, 11:08
  #132 (permalink)  
 
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You can't deep link to stuff on the Eurocontrol website. They use temporary tokens which time out.

Folks, click here, then click on ENR 5.5

Last edited by stevelup; 6th Sep 2012 at 11:08.
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Old 6th Sep 2012, 11:26
  #133 (permalink)  
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Hmmm, OK but I know about Errol. It's not me who needs the info, it's people who don't normally transit the area - or those who do and have read the AIP and know it's inaccurate. Errol is NOT normally active from Wednesday to Sunday during daylight hours, in fact in all the time I've operated from Dundee (10+years) I have never known anything happen outside of Sat/Sun and bank holidays. That's not to say it doesn't but I've never known it.
And the fact that it's in the AIP clearly isn't helping get the information out - I have to confess I don't keep a copy in the cludgie to pore over during those....extended sessions.
At a recent user's meeting at Dundee Airport all present agreed that it would help if Errol activity was NOTAMed, so I would say it is worth looking at.
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Old 6th Sep 2012, 12:01
  #134 (permalink)  
 
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I appreciate that Errol is very close to Dundee and so that is why the drop aircraft uses that frequency.

Would it not however make more sense to use Leuchars? They have radar - which as I understand it, Dundee do not. Leuchars are the service that most aircraft will use when transiting the area. Getting a traffic service from Leuchars is much more likely to address these matters than talking to Dundee - who mostly will not know what is happening in the area apart from their own inbounds.

If nothing else hearing a paradropping aircraft on the frequency is going to get most peoples' attention.
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Old 6th Sep 2012, 12:26
  #135 (permalink)  
 
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I don't think leuchars is operating at the weekends. They only do it when its in thier interests to protect the traffic at leuchars
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Old 6th Sep 2012, 13:12
  #136 (permalink)  
 
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For the moment Leuchars are H24 as part of the LARS. What will happen when the Army takes over? Who knows - but for the moment they would seem to offer more 'protection' than Dundee.
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Old 6th Sep 2012, 14:46
  #137 (permalink)  
 
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Gasax

The centre of the Errol drop zone is only 3 miles south of the Dundee localizer centreline. Dundee ATC are the only facility who can offer the proceedural service for the approach to Dundee. It is a requirement to speak to them to be able to use the ILS.

Leuchars and Dundee have a direct land line and Dundee listens out on 126.5.

There is every possible service available to pilots in this area. Speak to ANYBODY and they can tell you the status. If you are non radio stay well clear as you are in an area of intense activity. (Leuchars, Perth and Dundee).

Furthermore there is there is an additional drop zone this Saturday 8th at Errol Polo park operated by the Red Lions. This will be notamed. There is no connection with Paragon at Errol.

Every weekend without fail the parachute club phone Perth at the start and stop of operations. They have not been operating weekdays while I have been at Perth.

Edited to add, I have it on good authority there will be status quo at Leuchars for a few years yet.

D.O.

Last edited by dont overfil; 6th Sep 2012 at 14:49.
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Old 6th Sep 2012, 21:12
  #138 (permalink)  
 
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What type of aircarft is used for para-dropping at Errol?
Cessna 182 - owned by Paragon Skydiving Club.
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Old 6th Sep 2012, 21:46
  #139 (permalink)  
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MadDog:
I know its not controlled airspace. What I ment by that was that Dundee will tell aircraft were not "active" and inform pilots that they route direct to XYZ or no need to avoid etc.

"But its very hard to find out if jumping is going to be occuring until you get close"

Have you ever heard of "planning" its something that is taught by your instructor during training. Heres a radical idea. Pick up a phone and ask. Failing that, try calling someone in flight ie Scottish, Dundee, Perth or leuchars.

"Then there is the debate about how much room round the place you need to go. I have heard aircraft on the otherside of the Tay going to fife get a mouthful from the jump plane pilot. If you stuck to the 1.5 mile radius nobody would have a problem but if anyone comes with 5 miles of the place all hell lets loose."

Give us as much room as you consider safe. When did you hear the jump pilot give anyone a "mouthful" and i,ll get it sorted. As for all hell breaking loose if you come within 5 miles, is a bit of an exaggeration.

"So was the aircraft right overhead or was it 2 miles away and outside the 1.5 miles as stipulated. If the wind is such that you require more room quite frankly tough if its not safe don't drop you don't drop"

The aircraft dropped the jumpers 1/2 mile north of the centre on the DZ and well within the 1.5 radius as stipulated. If the wind was such that we needed more room that would suggest the wind limits were outside the max safe limits for jumping and they wouldnt have taken off.

10W: The 1.5 promulgated area is for the protection of the jumpers. We could confine the flying to the same area but we have to consider the local population and the noise polution it would generate.

DB6: If you prefer we could look at NOTAMing the area 365 days a year if thats what you want. But surely its better for everone if we activate it only when were planning on jumping on a day to day basis and free it up when were not using it. Again its not hard to get the information. Im sure the CAA/NATS etc have looked at this in the past. All DZs are the same. Dont know about gliding sites etc

Floppy

PS Were always on the look out for new jump pilots.

Last edited by floppyjock; 6th Sep 2012 at 21:46.
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Old 7th Sep 2012, 08:05
  #140 (permalink)  
 
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I am an instructor floppyjock. And when flying in that area I was always talking to scottish info or leuchars when IFR. And that wasn't just in SEP's it was in twin TP's as well.

And as for commercial crews they won't carry VFR charts although we used to because our ops manual allowed us to cancel IFR. They may only get there briefing pack 10 mins before departure, that pack may include FIR Notams. But always departure, TO alt, destination and alts aerodrome NOTAMS. They will not phone that list of yours. If they don't have local knowledge they won't even know there is a drop site until they get the Dundee plates out if it is mentioned on them. When they will find out depends on what they do if they go the long way round and drop out of P600 it will be mins before arrival if they take the longer transit through class G but shorter track miles its when leuchars gets them.

Folk heading North from England have several choice points depending what the WX is doing cross west/east before Leeds or continue up and do it over fife. Setting off from Turweston I would have a rough idea which way I was going but I would be 100% certain that it would not be anywhere near any line drawn on the chart.

And its not exaggeration, if things have improved thats good. But as I suspect there will be a re-assement of the risk assement (if there is even one) after the airprox report is out we shoud proberly leave it.

And its hardly 365 days a year is it.

Its at the most 100 days, proberly less planned. And less than that actually flown.

And you still haven't answered the question if other users are still using the site and the DZ protection when your not jumping.
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