unprofessional flying

[Mariner9]

The guy with his nose glued to the Go-To function on his GPS/iPad/iPhone (without the faintest idea where he is) of course...........

Or the guy flying with his nose glued to the chart desperately trying to match ground features to the chart due to winds aloft being different to those forecasted several hours ago

[Unusual Attitude]

There is a Black and Yellow low wing type in the hangar at Perth but I'd be pretty sure the owner knows to stay clear of Errol.....indeed our local FISO is excellent at advising traffic heading in that direction when Errol is active.

I also have a yellow aircraft at Perth (well yellow and silver) but mine has been stripped for permit for the last few weeks and wont be in the air again until this coming weekend....

[NigelOnDraft]

Quote:
but it is Class G airspace and free to all

Exactly.

If it is notamed as a PJ then the pilot should have avoided it, but most pilots don't get notams....

I'm not actually sure? I would place a standard NOTAM and a PJ Zone on the map as about the same - a warning / request / suggestion to avoid. However, most NOTAMs, similarly, do not carry any legal requirement to avoid unless specifically enacted e.g. RA(T), Temp CAS.

Given the number of Glider sites and PJ zones on the map, and some areas of the country cluttered, then a NOTAM stating high levels of activity is a good idea during competitons etc. (as Glider sites do). But as before, unless an RA(T) is obtained, it is only advisory IMHO

As an aside, how many freefall drops (@ 7000fpm!) occur in a typical "active" day here, and how many such "active" days a year?

NoD

[S-Works]

A typical active day for us would involve upto three aircraft each dropping around 16 jumpers and doing around 25-30 lifts each aircraft. At a competition which in the summer is every weekend you can expect much higher numbers. We also have aircraft that come down faster than 7,000fpm.

We fly every single droppable day from Feb through to December (when we then get our muc deserved holiday!) and remember the requirement is for the Jump master to see the ground and have a ceiling higher than minimimum pop height. This means that we are climbing and descending through cloud most of the time as well.

I have some great pictures of our SET aircraft descending with the jumpers in free fall right next to them and then being airborne again with the next load before the previous canopies are even on the ground.

Don't underestimate the pace of commercial parachute operations and the sheer volume of flying going on. Assuming that the drop aircraft is still at the top or somewhere high does not give you mcuh time. It is also means that jumpers are already in freefall and you have to remember that we do not drop them over the DZ as we have to account for wind to ensure that when they actually pop the canopy they can got back to the spot. It is not uncommon to drop a tandem over 2 miles from the DZ. Then you have tracking groups and the wing suit flyers.

This is the reason why we issue NOTAM on the activity to give you the information needed to plan wisely. Also don't be afraid to talk to the DZ, generally speaking one of the pilots will respond and tell you whats going on. You will find that we are a very sociable bunch!!

[Contacttower]

Or the guy flying with his nose glued to the chart desperately trying to match ground features to the chart due to winds aloft being different to those forecasted several hours ago

I know the area quite well having been at Perth for a few years. I find it hard to believe that anyone, even if they did not know the area, could have been lost since the field in question is on the north bank of the Tay estuary with a major town just a few miles to the east of it, it is also quite obviously a disused airfield.

Assuming they knew that they were on the east coast of Scotland and that they didn't think that they were over the Fourth estuary I can't really imagine were else they would have thought they would be. Much more likely I think is that the pilot either did not see the DZ on the chart/GPS, did know it was there but failed to visually identify it and assumed that his track would take him clear or did identify it but assumed that it was inactive.

As for not talking to ATC, yes it is a PPL disease but there is the possibility that s/he didn't have a radio...

[dont overfil]

I think it was Peter who astutely pointed out that there is a whole generation of pilots out there who were trained when notams were difficult to get and convenient flight planning was some time away. Many of these pilots, especially those who operate in isolation, still do not check notams or stay up to date with the airspace they use.

The appeal of this piece of airspace around Errol escapes me. Especially for those who choose to talk only to Perth Radio or even nobody. Many times I'll give pilots a "heads up" about Errol to be told they are operating a couple of miles to the north. (In the Dundee instrument approach chevvrons). Sometimes it's a couple of miles to the south. (Under the Leuchars MATZ stubs where there's a semi permanent notam for fast jet aerobatics).

Maybe reading the forums should be compulsory to see how other airspace users expect them to behave.

Edited to add. While it is not an excuse, if he was using a Jeppesen database Erro,l like most dropzones doesn't appear.

D.O.

[mad_jock]

There are a group of pilots who have been flying for years in scotland who won't under any circumstances speak to ATC. They will do there 1 hour with an instructor miles away from where they are based or with one of the Strut/gliding instructors who they have known for years.

They won't turn on a transponder either because last time they did they busted P600.

Instructors/examinors over the years have tried to do the good thing but its completely impossible when they own thier aircraft and have a mate who signs them off and they in the main operate into private strips.

[peterh337]

I did my PPL in 2000/2001 and notams were not covered.

In 2003 I busted a French power station TRA when the stuff was not in the (then just barely usable) internet notam briefing system (ais.org.uk).

And I am pretty savvy when it comes to internet use, including mobile internet. I've had mobile internet since this trip in 2003.

It is a safe bet that no pilot who got his PPL more than 10 years ago (90% of the UK PPL community?) has been trained to get notams, and a large % of those trained more recently don't bother.

[maxred]

I have not seen a Notam for Errol, in a long time. This is due possibly, because I am one of the aged PPL who also struggled to find them. Only recently, the advent of Sky Demon, where they pop up perfectly on the RHS of the page, have I actually started looking in more detail at them. That said, in over 1000 hrs of flying, I have never contravened a NOTAM (that I am aware of).

I fly over, or close to, Errol, almost every week, and I have never heard Perth Radio, give a warning about Errol being active. Nor Leuchers.

Dundee will tell you if it is active, but again, and I may be wrong, it is closed more often than it is open.

I was also unaware that it was an active ATZ, unless notified on a NOTAM

[NigelOnDraft]

Errol was not NOTAMed on day in question AFAIK...

NoD

Edit: altering whole post by addition of "not" - sorry

[Contacttower]

Perhaps someone older than me could satisfy my curiosity; before online NOTAMs if one was at a small airfield in the middle of nowhere how did one get them, did you just call someone up for a briefing?

[peterh337]

I believe there were faxback numbers. You had to have a fax machine with a handset on it; you dialed the number and when you got the fax tone you put the handset down and the fax came through.

You got area briefings that way, and some schools pinned them to a noticeboard.

Obviously no route briefing was possible.

But there was also much less stuff in the notams back in those days. Today, every damn kite is notamed

Start : 2012-07-16T04:04:00 End : 2012-10-16T17:04:00 Schedule : HJ Lower : 0 Upper : 8 Location : Uckfield(50.967,0.083) - Radius 1nm Code : QWCLW Traffic : IV E) KITE FLYING 1NM RADIUS 5058N 00005E (UCKFIELD). CTC FOR FLYING TIMES, TEL [phone]. 12-04-0089/AS 5.

Realistically, what you did was ignore everything except TRAs.

The other thing is that somebody navigation using DR, and who doesn't know the area, is likely to be working hard enough and is not likely to be avoiding PJ zones. With GPS, avoiding multiple notamed spots is easy.

[mad_jock]

Well to be honest the Errol site never had a very good reputation when I was flying alot of GA round there. They seemed to rely on Dundee ATC to spread the word and considered the airspace as there's if they were jumping or not.

The one over in fife always seemed alot better setup and also at distrubting notams when they were operating. It was years ago and only a personal opinion. I did get reported once for over flying it. I was scud running to get into Dundee and going up the estuary side at 600ft to get runway 10 in dundee and the tops where at FL80 which is where I had just been. I did know about the jumping because I was speaking to Leuchars and NOTAMS. But they said nothing had moved all morning and to be honest i thought that with OVC at 700 and 4k viz they won't be jumping and have forgot to call leuchars to say so. Apparently not they still reckon it was still thiers. The fact that a bodged wind corrected timed procedural approach for 10 will also put you in that airspace is also ignored.

Folk not talking to Dundee goes back to the days when they used to try and get a 15 radius of sterile airspace whenever the dornier passed TLA. And they had that demented harpie screaming at everyone. I must admit I avoided talking to them if she was on and I knew it was inbound and I wasn't landing there.

[dont overfil]

When I mentioned notams I was thinking about pilot behavour in general. Errol is not generally notamed probably because it is already on the charts as a parachute zone. If anyone was speaking to Dundee, Perth, Leuchars or Scottish Info they would be told whether Errol was active.

Back in the old days (When we thought the world was still cooling down) notams were retrieved by fax and hung in the aero club. If you were out in the boondocks, only by talking to an agency could you get route info.

What does seem different nowadays is the proliferation of microlight types operating outside the flight school environment. Dare I say it the abbreviated course may also be a factor.

D.O.

[dont overfil]

Folk not talking to Dundee goes back to the days when they used to try and get a 15 radius of sterile airspace whenever the dornier passed TLA. And they had that demented harpie screaming at everyone. I must admit I avoided talking to them if she was on and I knew it was inbound and I wasn't landing there

Ha! And the manager before her

D.O.

[DX Wombat]

most pilots don't get notams....

Really? How do you know? Have you asked them all? If you don't check NOTAMs then that's your lookout but please do NOT try to taint the rest of us with such unfounded claims.

[peterh337]

Come to Shoreham and see how many say the ATIS doesn't work

My guess, from 11 years' flying, is a good 75% don't get notams.

But there will be a certain correlation between those doing short trips, and not getting notams.

[7120]

It's always been a mystery to me why parachute planes can't broadcast a warning on the local FIS frequency five minutes before tipping out their cargo into uncontrolled airspace.

Anybody from from the parachute world know why not?

[piperboy84]

While we are on the sunbject of Dundee ATC, I was out flying on Sunday and have a question regarding the correct transition procedure (and no it was not my flying that initiated the OP too start this thread).

I was flying from Forfar to Kingsmuir (Fife) via Monikie reservoir between the restricted area of Barry Buddon to my left and Broughty castle to the right over the mouth of the Tay and along the shoreline passed Leuchers and over St Andrews. On the way there and about 5 miles before passing the castle I called Leuchars for a transition which was approved, as I approached the castle knowing that that is the main VRP point and basically a funnel for Dundee traffic from the north and west I asked Leuchars to go off frequency ( this is still prior to entering their matz) for a second to give Dundee a heads up I was crossing what is essentially their “approach path” (although not entering there airspace) then returned to Leuchars prior to entering the MATZ , all this went fine.

Upon the return leg I received a MATZ transition and immediately upon existing the MATZ about mid channel across the Tay I asked Leuchars for a frequency change for the purpose of advising Dundee that I would be passing back over through the busy VRP Broughty castle area to which the Dundee tower advised me to “stay with Luechars”. Which I thought was a strange one.

My question is as follows, do military controllers and civilian ATC work seamlessly and do hand offs and exchange traffic info? Should I have treated the Leuchars MATZ transition much the same way I do a basic vfr “flight following” type service from Scottish Information on routes that do not involve MATZ transitions assuming basically that my service continues even after i have left the MATZ? Would the Leuchars controller have advised Dundee that I was skirting their airspace and this would explain why Dundee felt that there was no need to talk to them and requested me to “stay with Leuchars? even though I was out of the MATZ

[Crash one]

When I was doing the NPPL 5+yrs ago I was required to navigate to Burnside from Fife. This I did via Freuchie.
After a few PFL etc I was then told "OK return to Fife" The instructor indicated "that way" which would have put us right over Portmoak.
I pointed this out & she said "Its just there, we can fly past it."
I elected to fly via Strathmiglo Freuchie etc & mentioned the extent of the activity at Portmoak, This was met with a disinterested " OK, whatever" kind of attitude.
Another instructor pointed out at that time that "They don't own the bloody airspace, they don't have an ATZ, it's class G, we have as much right there as they do".
Another occasion I was receiving post PPL spin training. Overhead a point between Balado, West Lomond, Kinross. 5000ft we spun the thing several times, then entered cloud for exercise several times. I felt this was a bit of two fingers up to Portmoak. & would have felt happier overhead Schiehallion doing spins.
If this is the way Instructors behave no wonder the rest of aviation ignores the big G & pictures of parachutes.
Things may well have changed since & perhaps my experiences were isolated, who knows.
My opinion as an ex glider pilot is they should be classified as D, R or P areas.

Piperboy, Iwas up there about 3PM, too windy for me, so washed flies off it & went home.