It is acceptable....
Está servira para distraerle.
Facebook has always proved my friend when dealing with recalcitrant airlines.
Last edited by cavortingcheetah; 13th Aug 2012 at 18:52.
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Can only hope that others learn from this and don't go near this flying club with a 10 foot barge pole. I think it's despicable for this person to withhold the documents, I hope he explains himself - I for one would be extremely curious to find out his reasons for a 3 week delay. Simply saying that "he's too busy flying" is not acceptable, after all, he isn't flying 24 hours a day, and, as my old boss used to say - if there aren't enough hours in the day, use the night time as well.......
At the same time, does any one else know of a flying club near Stilton they can recommend, my cousin was looking to learn to fly but I'm damned if I will allow him to go through the same problems - I will be warning him against this outfit.
DS3: Thanks for naming the club, the only way to hit these groups is by naming and shaming them. When punters stay away, maybe then this CFI will realise that paperwork is not an unnecessary evil but his duty to comply with.
At the same time, does any one else know of a flying club near Stilton they can recommend, my cousin was looking to learn to fly but I'm damned if I will allow him to go through the same problems - I will be warning him against this outfit.
DS3: Thanks for naming the club, the only way to hit these groups is by naming and shaming them. When punters stay away, maybe then this CFI will realise that paperwork is not an unnecessary evil but his duty to comply with.
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In their defence, I have never had any problems with Sibson. It's amazing how a single disgruntled customer's outpouring of frustration (btw I'm not judging whether it's justified or not, but it's clear you -are- frustrated and upset) can lead to an outright lynch mob when only one side of the story has been told.
Can we just get a sense of realism and understand that not everyone can be happy 100% of the time and schools don't get it right 100% of the time. One bad experience does not make a rubbish school. If there are lots of bad experiences, then maybe there's a case. And there may be other factors at play that might be temporarily having a negative effect on efficiencies at the school. Fact is that it's not a multinational corporation, and the industry is extremely challenging, and where we can I think we should be trying to support places like this to fix things rather than jump on a virtual bandwagon to destroy them. Ultimately it's shooting us in the foot too.
That's not to say that genuine scam artists or cowboy outfits shouldn't be highlighted and brought to task, but I genuinely believe this isn't the case for Sibson.
Can we just get a sense of realism and understand that not everyone can be happy 100% of the time and schools don't get it right 100% of the time. One bad experience does not make a rubbish school. If there are lots of bad experiences, then maybe there's a case. And there may be other factors at play that might be temporarily having a negative effect on efficiencies at the school. Fact is that it's not a multinational corporation, and the industry is extremely challenging, and where we can I think we should be trying to support places like this to fix things rather than jump on a virtual bandwagon to destroy them. Ultimately it's shooting us in the foot too.
That's not to say that genuine scam artists or cowboy outfits shouldn't be highlighted and brought to task, but I genuinely believe this isn't the case for Sibson.
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Taybird, I am more than willing to let Sibson state clearly and concisely why they have delayed doing what clearly should have been done - completing Ds3's paperwork to allow him to send off - but in my mind there is no real justification for it unless they have a problem which, 3 weeks later, should have been explained to Ds3 a long time ago.
What worms me the most is that Ds3 stated that he was told to go in on the 5th of August and wait for the CFI between flights, which, given Ds3's eagerness to get the paperwork completed, I presume he did and as he still didn't get the result he wanted meant a wait in vain. On top of this, someone has already stated that it was probably "Frank who is a bit of a cluster****" which shows that they know this person is "unreliable", to say the least.
I am not "upset" or "angry", as you claim, I am just stating an honest truth; the fact that you are defending them shows that either you have a lesser expectation towards "customer service" or you have a personal bias on the situation and are not reacting as a neutral outsider. To that extent, imagine this whole situation happened to someone else at a different club and your brother / cousin or best friend was looking to start learning there - would you keep your mouth shut or would you look to recommend them go to another club?
This is not in a "lynch mob" manner as you call it but if someone is going to part with his hard earned cash to learn to fly then once he has paid his bills, completed his exams, logged his hours and passed the skills test, he has a right to expect the paperwork to be finalised in a timely and prompt manner to allow him to realise his dreams - or do you disagree with my view of this whole sorry situation?
What worms me the most is that Ds3 stated that he was told to go in on the 5th of August and wait for the CFI between flights, which, given Ds3's eagerness to get the paperwork completed, I presume he did and as he still didn't get the result he wanted meant a wait in vain. On top of this, someone has already stated that it was probably "Frank who is a bit of a cluster****" which shows that they know this person is "unreliable", to say the least.
I am not "upset" or "angry", as you claim, I am just stating an honest truth; the fact that you are defending them shows that either you have a lesser expectation towards "customer service" or you have a personal bias on the situation and are not reacting as a neutral outsider. To that extent, imagine this whole situation happened to someone else at a different club and your brother / cousin or best friend was looking to start learning there - would you keep your mouth shut or would you look to recommend them go to another club?
This is not in a "lynch mob" manner as you call it but if someone is going to part with his hard earned cash to learn to fly then once he has paid his bills, completed his exams, logged his hours and passed the skills test, he has a right to expect the paperwork to be finalised in a timely and prompt manner to allow him to realise his dreams - or do you disagree with my view of this whole sorry situation?
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am more than willing to let Sibson state clearly and concisely why they have delayed doing what clearly should have been done -
a service provider, they may find it more difficult to post with respect to a customer ( or at least I would hope so!) than a customer finds it to complain of them. This doesn't make them right, or wrong, just at a disadvantage in these circumstances.
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You could complain to Trading Standards.
Or, to the Small Claims Court and ask them to get your money back.
Or, to the Small Claims Court and ask them to get your money back.
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Firstly, I do not fly from Sibson, and have no involvement with them other than having flown a couple of times with Frank a few years ago. So I'm afraid any accusation of being an "insider" will be a misplaced accusation. In my personal experience, Frank was a very good instructor, and I have heard the same opinion from more experienced aviators than me. Whether his paperwork is up to scratch, I don't know, but I also know several other instructors / examiners who are not always the most organised in paperwork terms. I also know bose-x, and if he says he can help, he probably will, but my sense is that he won't have intended the cluster comment to be seen as so derogatory. I am sure he can speak for himself.
Secondly, I am amazed at the aggressive nature of the demands that are being made by people who are not even the aggrieved party. It makes me sad to think that people can be so quick to judge on one person's story.
I do hope the paperwork can be sorted soon, whatever happens.
Secondly, I am amazed at the aggressive nature of the demands that are being made by people who are not even the aggrieved party. It makes me sad to think that people can be so quick to judge on one person's story.
I do hope the paperwork can be sorted soon, whatever happens.
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DS3,
You could just ask for your student records, which should contain all the relevant paperwork, and take them with your logbook down the road to Conington. The CFI there is very... thorough, so I doubt it'll be a quick visit, but he doesn't teach, so has the time for this, no matter how busy the club is.
Steve6443,
Conington must be closer to Stilton than Sibson. I think Stilton is one of the noise sensitive areas in Conington's circuit, it's that close. There's also Bourne a little further up the A1(M) depending where you are.
Old Ben
You could just ask for your student records, which should contain all the relevant paperwork, and take them with your logbook down the road to Conington. The CFI there is very... thorough, so I doubt it'll be a quick visit, but he doesn't teach, so has the time for this, no matter how busy the club is.
Steve6443,
Conington must be closer to Stilton than Sibson. I think Stilton is one of the noise sensitive areas in Conington's circuit, it's that close. There's also Bourne a little further up the A1(M) depending where you are.
Old Ben
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Chaps this thread wasn't intended as a witch hunt, nor a personal attack on anyone be they registered here or not. It's specific purpose was to ask for advice as to how I could expedite the paperwork that I rightly should have been given three weeks ago. There's some good people at Sibson and it's a great little airfield to fly out of, and you'll see from some of my other posts that whilst I have had some organisational issues there, topped off by this delay, I've also made some positive comments regarding the club.
Taybird, yes I am frustrated and upset - I've spend the last year and a lot of money working towards getting my license and I should be awaiting a courier knocking on my door now, not left wondering why my application hasn't been sent and whether it's even valid. I absolutely agree that Sibson aren't a cowboy outfit and wouldn't suggest that to anyone, but there is clearly a significant issue here which I hope no other students will have to suffer.
Sibson may not have the means to defend themselves on PpRuNe, however they have had more ample opportunity to provide me with a justifable reason why the paperwork isn't being sent off and have comprehensively failed to do so. Despite being left holding the ****ty end of the stick, my posts here will be factual and if Sibson provide me with a proper explanation I will gladly relay that here.
Steve6443, yes on the 5th I went and sat in the clubhouse for a couple of hours, gave the CFI a copy of my passport and medical, signed the relevant forms, and asked if I could then take the paperwork with me which was declined, with the only reason being he needed to do some more work on it first. I was assured then it would be posted on the 6th. It wasn't. I went up there to fly on on the 11th, complained, and was assured it would most certainly go on 13th. It didn't.
Are the CAA not interested in complaints regarding FTOs then, even when there's suggestion of a possible licensing issue that may need investigating?
Taybird, yes I am frustrated and upset - I've spend the last year and a lot of money working towards getting my license and I should be awaiting a courier knocking on my door now, not left wondering why my application hasn't been sent and whether it's even valid. I absolutely agree that Sibson aren't a cowboy outfit and wouldn't suggest that to anyone, but there is clearly a significant issue here which I hope no other students will have to suffer.
Sibson may not have the means to defend themselves on PpRuNe, however they have had more ample opportunity to provide me with a justifable reason why the paperwork isn't being sent off and have comprehensively failed to do so. Despite being left holding the ****ty end of the stick, my posts here will be factual and if Sibson provide me with a proper explanation I will gladly relay that here.
Steve6443, yes on the 5th I went and sat in the clubhouse for a couple of hours, gave the CFI a copy of my passport and medical, signed the relevant forms, and asked if I could then take the paperwork with me which was declined, with the only reason being he needed to do some more work on it first. I was assured then it would be posted on the 6th. It wasn't. I went up there to fly on on the 11th, complained, and was assured it would most certainly go on 13th. It didn't.
Are the CAA not interested in complaints regarding FTOs then, even when there's suggestion of a possible licensing issue that may need investigating?
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but there is clearly a significant issue here which I hope no other students will have to suffer.
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I also know bose-x, and if he says he can help, he probably will, but my sense is that he won't have intended the cluster comment to be seen as so derogatory. I am sure he can speak for himself.
Frank is a great Instructor and honest as the day is long. But when it comes to organisation and especially paperwork he can be a bit of the aforementioned cluster****.
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lenhamlad, it would seem you and I are the exception as most people appear to have been given their paperwork on the same day they passed their skills test.
I'm waiting to join a group which will allow me to fly the same (type of) plane at less than half the hourly cost, obviously I appreciate flying is and always will be an expensive hobby, but flying during these apparently unnecessary delays is costing me money.
Also, due to lack of availability of the club planes, I'm very restricted on when I can fly, and when I do get the opportunity it's only for a max of an hour so I'm restricted to a few circuits or a short local flight - whilst this is all good experience there are plenty of other things I'd like to be doing too.
I'm waiting to join a group which will allow me to fly the same (type of) plane at less than half the hourly cost, obviously I appreciate flying is and always will be an expensive hobby, but flying during these apparently unnecessary delays is costing me money.
Also, due to lack of availability of the club planes, I'm very restricted on when I can fly, and when I do get the opportunity it's only for a max of an hour so I'm restricted to a few circuits or a short local flight - whilst this is all good experience there are plenty of other things I'd like to be doing too.
Last edited by Ds3; 14th Aug 2012 at 10:33.
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Ds3, a note of support from me, you have been more than patient. Not only is leaving you hanging and lying to you poor customer service it is downright ignorant and p1ss poor business practice, irrespective of how good an instructor he might be.
For those paying customers that feel this sort of customer service level to complete a few forms (and being blatantly lied to) is acceptable then I wish you well as you will surely reap what you sow.
BB
For those paying customers that feel this sort of customer service level to complete a few forms (and being blatantly lied to) is acceptable then I wish you well as you will surely reap what you sow.
BB
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Not sure if it will work, but there is i believe a legal phrase "time is of the essence", if you give them a reasonable deadline (after this time I would say a week), and use this phrase then you can claim compensation (I would think at least all the money you have spent flying their aircraft above what you would have spent if it had been the group aircraft). I would suggest you go in and either use this, making sure they know the consequences and/or advise them you will go to trading standards. I am not a lawyer though so do not take this as gospel. I would normally be very reluctant to take things this far but it certainly sounds like you have been waiting long enough.
Good luck.
Good luck.
Last edited by foxmoth; 14th Aug 2012 at 10:03.
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Taybird, nobody has accused you of being an insider, I simply said that either you have a lesser expectation on customer service - which might be the case - or you have a personal bias - ie, you have seen the better side of Sibson and see Ds3's treatment as a "trivial matter". In no way have I claimed you to be an insider. However I can assure you that delaying Ds3 in being able to send off his documentation to get his licence, that being told "you will have it tomorrow" yet a week later STILL waiting is - in my mind - neither trivial nor acceptable.
Nor have my words been aggressive - quite the contrary, I have simply stated what I believe to be the truth, that Ds3 has been extremely poorly treated and in no way whatsoever could or would I accept his treatment as acceptable hence will advise my cousin NOT to go near Sibson with a 10 foot bargepole - which I'm sure you'll agree is, as a concerned relative, my right. As you correctly say, this story might not affect me directly but if I don't do anything, it COULD. I for one do NOT want him to come back to me and say "why didn't you warn me this could happen" or get as frustrated as Ds3 is.
Thankfully others have PMd me to give me details of other clubs, I even got one very helpful PM which listed numerous reasons WHY I should choose club X over Sibson......
Nor have my words been aggressive - quite the contrary, I have simply stated what I believe to be the truth, that Ds3 has been extremely poorly treated and in no way whatsoever could or would I accept his treatment as acceptable hence will advise my cousin NOT to go near Sibson with a 10 foot bargepole - which I'm sure you'll agree is, as a concerned relative, my right. As you correctly say, this story might not affect me directly but if I don't do anything, it COULD. I for one do NOT want him to come back to me and say "why didn't you warn me this could happen" or get as frustrated as Ds3 is.
Thankfully others have PMd me to give me details of other clubs, I even got one very helpful PM which listed numerous reasons WHY I should choose club X over Sibson......
Last edited by Steve6443; 14th Aug 2012 at 10:21.
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or staging a sit-in protest
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None of us would tolerate this sort of shambolic performance in any other facet of life. Especially not when paying so much.
Sadly, this is aviation. The normal rules don't apply I'm afraid.
Aviation attracts 'characters' and it attracts people who are in love with flying and could never consider working in another industry. This means they rarely have experience of working in businesses outside aviation, where such a shambles would never be tolerated. To aviation 'lifers', this is normal.
Sadly, this is aviation. The normal rules don't apply I'm afraid.
Aviation attracts 'characters' and it attracts people who are in love with flying and could never consider working in another industry. This means they rarely have experience of working in businesses outside aviation, where such a shambles would never be tolerated. To aviation 'lifers', this is normal.
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Originally Posted by niceday2700classic
To aviation 'lifers', this is normal.
Whether it was the norm or not, was it me I would be introducing new ideas and be receiving better customer service. Even if it did revert to 'normal' thereafter!
Absolutely no excuse or justification. It's an insult to the individual customer and stinks of I have your dosh now so you don't matter.
Ds3, best of luck, it appears to me you have been too civil over the matter.
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Ds3
If I were you, I'd find a local solicitor, explain the situation to them and get them to write a suitable letter to the club, giving them a deadline to produce the paperwork.
I think that might get their attention and the money it costs you will be peanuts compared to the cost of learning to fly.
If I were you, I'd find a local solicitor, explain the situation to them and get them to write a suitable letter to the club, giving them a deadline to produce the paperwork.
I think that might get their attention and the money it costs you will be peanuts compared to the cost of learning to fly.