Stall Spin Awareness/Recovery
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two things about spins.
one...read "Stick and Rudder" by wolfgang langweische and you will learn much.
two...if you aren't stalled, you can't spin...so avoid a stall and you avoid the spin.
and that is why it isn't in the private pilot world anymore...we teach you to avoid stall and recover from stall....so avoid stalls and you avoid spins!
good luck
one...read "Stick and Rudder" by wolfgang langweische and you will learn much.
two...if you aren't stalled, you can't spin...so avoid a stall and you avoid the spin.
and that is why it isn't in the private pilot world anymore...we teach you to avoid stall and recover from stall....so avoid stalls and you avoid spins!
good luck
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I see both sides of this, but still err to the "train and practice" rather than "avoid" approach. I really doubt that planned training spins, conducted with the appropriate cautions, in appropriate type ,airworthy aircraft are a source of great hazard. Yes, loosing control of a twin while doing single engine training can become an immense hazard - but that is not intentional spin training! The "avoid" approach seems to me to be akin to saying that if someone is taught to land really well, teaching a bouce recovery or an overshoot after touchdown skill is not really necessary. Ideally yes, though practically a miss, in my opinion.
I have never accidentally spun an aircraft, other than during very abused handling testing, where a spin was very possible, and the recovery preplanned. I think however, that a mismanaged wing drop stall, which is presumed to be a spin, but is not (yet) tends to strike fear into pilots.
Apparently to me, no matter how vigourously pilots are trained to not stall, they still seem to. As long as a stall, however unintended, happens, spin recovery could rapidly become a valuable skill. Yes, unintended stalls and spins seem to be most common close to the ground, where all is lost (hence my very real resistance to the turnback after engine failure on departure - no matter how many posters say it could be attempted).
The spin training includes as a great value the approach to the stall spin, which itself is important in teaching a pilot what it's like when you're getting close.
The more training one has in the unusual corners of flying, the less alarming those corners will be, and the better natural reactions will be there to get out - or better yet, avoid!
I have never accidentally spun an aircraft, other than during very abused handling testing, where a spin was very possible, and the recovery preplanned. I think however, that a mismanaged wing drop stall, which is presumed to be a spin, but is not (yet) tends to strike fear into pilots.
Apparently to me, no matter how vigourously pilots are trained to not stall, they still seem to. As long as a stall, however unintended, happens, spin recovery could rapidly become a valuable skill. Yes, unintended stalls and spins seem to be most common close to the ground, where all is lost (hence my very real resistance to the turnback after engine failure on departure - no matter how many posters say it could be attempted).
The spin training includes as a great value the approach to the stall spin, which itself is important in teaching a pilot what it's like when you're getting close.
The more training one has in the unusual corners of flying, the less alarming those corners will be, and the better natural reactions will be there to get out - or better yet, avoid!
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if you aren't stalled, you can't spin...so avoid a stall and you avoid the spin.
and that is why it isn't in the private pilot world anymore...we teach you to avoid stall and recover from stall....so avoid stalls and you avoid spins!
and that is why it isn't in the private pilot world anymore...we teach you to avoid stall and recover from stall....so avoid stalls and you avoid spins!
I'm advocate pushing the limits as much as possible that one feels confident to do, an inch at a time, but we must know the max and not exceed it whilst remaining in complete control at all times.
Fly safe
GW
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Spin avoidance or recovery training
I was required to learn to perform full spin recovery when I learned to fly in 1960. In 2005, when I made a return to flying, after a break of many years, I was given the new 'spin avoidance' training.
So having now experienced both, my view is that everybody ought to experience a fully developed spin, even if only once and as a passenger, purely for purposes of demonstration.
After all, if you have never actually experienced a spin, how can you form any concept of what it is you are avoiding when you have spin avoidance training?
Unless you have actually seen with your own eyes that YOUR aeroplane really will spin, and seen the potentially terrifying sight of the good earth up in front of your windscreen and spinning like a top, the spin will always remain merely a theoretical possibility.
Without this, I feel that as time passes people will gradually become inclined to tempt fate, taking the attitude 'well it just doesn't happen; and it can't really be all that bad can it'?
BP.
So having now experienced both, my view is that everybody ought to experience a fully developed spin, even if only once and as a passenger, purely for purposes of demonstration.
After all, if you have never actually experienced a spin, how can you form any concept of what it is you are avoiding when you have spin avoidance training?
Unless you have actually seen with your own eyes that YOUR aeroplane really will spin, and seen the potentially terrifying sight of the good earth up in front of your windscreen and spinning like a top, the spin will always remain merely a theoretical possibility.
Without this, I feel that as time passes people will gradually become inclined to tempt fate, taking the attitude 'well it just doesn't happen; and it can't really be all that bad can it'?
BP.
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Originally Posted by GeeWhizz
Who has ever come close to the stage that a spin may occur? If you have, you've probably been flying your aircraft to its slowest limit and will be cautious of its 'bite'.
Originally Posted by BroomstickPilot
everybody ought to experience a fully developed spin, even if only once and as a passenger, purely for purposes of demonstration.
I think there may be a bit of semantics at play here. It takes 2 turns to establish a true spin for typical GA aircraft ( i.e. non specialty aerobatic aircraft ). If you recover in the first half turn you are not executing a spin recovery you are really just recovering from a stall. The proof is that the aircraft can be recovered with just forward stick and no rudder input at all. To get to true autorotation where
a proper spin recovery is the only way to ensure a safe recovery, you have to let the aircraft go at least a full turn and for most common trainers 2 turns is required. The only time I see this happening is for deliberate spins and therefore if you get into an inadvertent spin why would anyone sit there and do nothing for a whole turn or more ?
When I want to give my students a healthy fright about what happens if you are asleep at the wheel I conduct a power on climbing turn stall slipping in a bit of top rudder at the break (i.e. rudder opposite the turn to cause a skid). The aircraft will roll off the top in fairly dramatic fashion. Even those students with a under developed imagination can figure out a really bad situation is going to develop unless early and aggressive action is taken to unstall the aircraft and control the yaw.
Another great exercise is to do a power off stall but hold the stick full back when it breaks. The idea is to use the rudder to stop the aircraft from yawing and thus starting the entry to a spin. Quite coarse use of the rudder is required but if you get on the rudder the aircraft will stay under control albeit with a big sink rate. This exercise is usually the first time any student has ever applied full rudder in flight.
Finally it is important to note that the above comments applies to common modern GA aircraft. If you are flying a vintage taildragger, home built, or warbirds then the aircraft might have very unforgiving stall characteristics and a proper checkout should include some work in the dark corners of the flight envelope.
a proper spin recovery is the only way to ensure a safe recovery, you have to let the aircraft go at least a full turn and for most common trainers 2 turns is required. The only time I see this happening is for deliberate spins and therefore if you get into an inadvertent spin why would anyone sit there and do nothing for a whole turn or more ?
When I want to give my students a healthy fright about what happens if you are asleep at the wheel I conduct a power on climbing turn stall slipping in a bit of top rudder at the break (i.e. rudder opposite the turn to cause a skid). The aircraft will roll off the top in fairly dramatic fashion. Even those students with a under developed imagination can figure out a really bad situation is going to develop unless early and aggressive action is taken to unstall the aircraft and control the yaw.
Another great exercise is to do a power off stall but hold the stick full back when it breaks. The idea is to use the rudder to stop the aircraft from yawing and thus starting the entry to a spin. Quite coarse use of the rudder is required but if you get on the rudder the aircraft will stay under control albeit with a big sink rate. This exercise is usually the first time any student has ever applied full rudder in flight.
Finally it is important to note that the above comments applies to common modern GA aircraft. If you are flying a vintage taildragger, home built, or warbirds then the aircraft might have very unforgiving stall characteristics and a proper checkout should include some work in the dark corners of the flight envelope.
Last edited by Big Pistons Forever; 19th May 2012 at 22:50.
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I found that an oddity about PPL training, the fact that you do incipient spin but not the fully developed one. I have to do spins every year as part of my glider recert, what's so different about powered? (I might add that spinning is the best way to loose height in a glider, someone I know, cough, happily span down from 11,000 to 2,000 in a very short space of time)
Edit: In case there are lunatics reading this who thing 'Der, I'll give that a go then' I will add the rider that it's the best way to loose height quickly providing you have lots and lots to start with, aren't barking enough to leave it too late to apply anti spin control, are in a glider that you are completely familiar with and that will spin in the first place
Edit: In case there are lunatics reading this who thing 'Der, I'll give that a go then' I will add the rider that it's the best way to loose height quickly providing you have lots and lots to start with, aren't barking enough to leave it too late to apply anti spin control, are in a glider that you are completely familiar with and that will spin in the first place
Last edited by thing; 19th May 2012 at 23:02.
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Quite correct that teaching avoidance of stall or approaching spin is safer, for power aircraft. I found it rather scary in a Cessna 152, as demonstrated by my instructor. By comparison, stalls and spins and the recognition of these is required before a glider pilot can go solo. This is because we typically fly in thermals, at slow speeds for best height gain, and also turbulence, or gusts in thermals, certainly CAN stall the glider, and the last thing you want to do is come spinning down through all those other gliders in the stack circling under your cloud...they wouldn't appreciate it!
Low down spins are certainly to be avoided! these used to be taught in gliding just to put respect for the ground into the hapless student.
I find it helpful to remind the beginners that without realising it, they have probably experienced stalls .....after all, a well held off landing is a stall a few inches from the ground!
The experience of the stall is given early in the training now, as people fear what they havn't experienced. Same later on, with spinning. But it took me at least 5 years to learn to enjoy it.
The K13 glider, or the Puchaz at some clubs, is used for spin training. If curious, power pilots might like to try it in a glider, it is not so scary, and leads to understanding of the symptoms and effects. Speed control in the circuit and on approach is critical for avoiding stalls or spins too near the ground for the standard full spin recovery to save the situation.
Low down spins are certainly to be avoided! these used to be taught in gliding just to put respect for the ground into the hapless student.
I find it helpful to remind the beginners that without realising it, they have probably experienced stalls .....after all, a well held off landing is a stall a few inches from the ground!
The experience of the stall is given early in the training now, as people fear what they havn't experienced. Same later on, with spinning. But it took me at least 5 years to learn to enjoy it.
The K13 glider, or the Puchaz at some clubs, is used for spin training. If curious, power pilots might like to try it in a glider, it is not so scary, and leads to understanding of the symptoms and effects. Speed control in the circuit and on approach is critical for avoiding stalls or spins too near the ground for the standard full spin recovery to save the situation.
The "avoid" approach seems to me to be akin to saying that if someone is taught to land really well, teaching a bouce recovery or an overshoot after touchdown skill is not really necessary. Ideally yes, though practically a miss, in my opinion.
The more training one has in the unusual corners of flying, the less alarming those corners will be, and the better natural reactions will be there to get out - or better yet, avoid!
The more training one has in the unusual corners of flying, the less alarming those corners will be, and the better natural reactions will be there to get out - or better yet, avoid!
Personally I think a landing analogy equating to the teaching of spins would be to have the student deliberately touch down at high speed nose wheel first in order to set up a case of the aircraft wheel barrowing. Yes it could happen but the solution is to not perfect the students control of the aircraft while it on the runway rolling along with the just the nosewheel touching, it is to instill an automatic reaction to recover from the situation, which in this case is obviously back stick and conduct a go around just like arresting a spin should occur at the first sign of a stall and uncommanded yaw not after the aircraft is allowed to establish itself in autorotation.
I however heartily endorse your thoughts about training in the unusual corners of flying. In a perfect world everyone would take upset training and thus develop the life saving automatic reactions you need when you find yourself in a bad place.
Ask your average private pilot what immediate action is required to save yourself if the aircraft is rolled upside down on final because of wake turbulence, and hardly anyone will know, let alone likely have the presence of mind to do it if it actually happened.
Last edited by Big Pistons Forever; 19th May 2012 at 23:30.
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Ask your average private pilot what immediate action is required to save yourself if the aircraft is rolled upside down on final because of wake turbulence, and hardly anyone will know, let alone likely have the presence of mind to do it if it actually happened.
What's the solution?
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Who has ever come close to the stage that a spin may occur?
As a novice I would probably (given the presence of mind) shove full forward yoke and full aileron/rudder.
Last edited by The500man; 20th May 2012 at 01:09.
Full spin training in a controlled environment: educational, worthwhile and fun.
Instilling instinctive feel of and reactions to excessive AoA, yaw and approaching loss-of-control: priceless.
Instilling instinctive feel of and reactions to excessive AoA, yaw and approaching loss-of-control: priceless.
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Hello All,
When you learn how to fly you need to understand a full stall and what a spin is....I was 15 when I stalled and later spun a 152....today at 47.... I am so thankful that I was required to accomplish this simple task. Remember the only thing that really kills... is lack of altitude.
Full left rudder and opposite airleron....followed by....well you get it....right???
Enjoy
When you learn how to fly you need to understand a full stall and what a spin is....I was 15 when I stalled and later spun a 152....today at 47.... I am so thankful that I was required to accomplish this simple task. Remember the only thing that really kills... is lack of altitude.
Full left rudder and opposite airleron....followed by....well you get it....right???
Enjoy
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Ask your average private pilot what immediate action is required to save yourself if the aircraft is rolled upside down on final because of wake turbulence, and hardly anyone will know, let alone likely have the presence of mind to do it if it actually happened.
I think we were lucky, we had a 100kt approach speed so more effective controls, and I was with someone with a lot more experience than I had who recognised what was going on very quickly and knew a way out of it. I wouldn't like to have been inverted in a 172 at 1500' as I think the only way to recover would have been to continue the roll to wings level and recover from the dive. Don't know if there would have been enough altitude though.....
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When you don't KNOW what to do, DO NOTHING! Even the Air France plunge into the Atlantic was caused by the pilots doing the wrong thing, same with the Colgan disaster.
Typical stall and spin approach scenario, ...."I pulled back on the stick, and the nose wouldn't come up! The elevator didn't seem to work, so I pulled harder....."
While being flipped on approach by wake turbulence does call for immediate and expert recovery, this doesn't happen a lot.....but if your aircraft is properly trimmed and was flying just fine a few seconds before things went pearshaped, let go of everything and pray!
History relates, in the early days, the first pilot to recover from a spin decided he was going to die anyhow, and stopped trying to bring the nose up from what he thought was a dive.....
Typical stall and spin approach scenario, ...."I pulled back on the stick, and the nose wouldn't come up! The elevator didn't seem to work, so I pulled harder....."
While being flipped on approach by wake turbulence does call for immediate and expert recovery, this doesn't happen a lot.....but if your aircraft is properly trimmed and was flying just fine a few seconds before things went pearshaped, let go of everything and pray!
History relates, in the early days, the first pilot to recover from a spin decided he was going to die anyhow, and stopped trying to bring the nose up from what he thought was a dive.....
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someone I know, cough, happily span down from 11,000 to 2,000 in a very short space of time
I find it helpful to remind the beginners that without realising it, they have probably experienced stalls .....after all, a well held off landing is a stall a few inches from the ground!
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The day after I passed my flight exam, I booked an hour in a Super-Decathalon to go do a couple of spins. It was an overwhelmingly positive and confidence-building lesson because it removed the fear of the unknown for me. I'd heard a lot about how dangerous spins were so I was deathly afraid of any unusual movement of the aircraft because I thought it was going to start hurling me to the ground in some unrecoverable plummet.
Doing actual spins showed me what they really are all about, how to properly avoid them, and recover, and finally gave me real confidence in handling the airplane. I advocate doing them for at least that reason - to dispel all the myth, legend, and fear-mongering that surrounds them, and give the student more confidence. As to the rationale for taking them out of training, I can't comment. I can only say that doing them was an excellent experience for me.
Doing actual spins showed me what they really are all about, how to properly avoid them, and recover, and finally gave me real confidence in handling the airplane. I advocate doing them for at least that reason - to dispel all the myth, legend, and fear-mongering that surrounds them, and give the student more confidence. As to the rationale for taking them out of training, I can't comment. I can only say that doing them was an excellent experience for me.
BTW.
Much higher up this thread avoiding stalls was advocated. True, BUT.....
Every year at least, Permit renewal (UK) requires stall characteristics, hence a real stall, to be done.
Makes sense to me, regularly done every now & then as a check on what the ASI says at these critically low velocities.
Worth doing with pax & loaded too - at plenty of height.
Spin off the final two turns on landing ?
I watch the speedo like a hawk and get on one stage of flap before then, mostly slowed down to flap speed at the latter part of downwind. On my Rans that reduces stall by ~3 to 4 mph, all very useful for the last bit !
mike hallam.
Much higher up this thread avoiding stalls was advocated. True, BUT.....
Every year at least, Permit renewal (UK) requires stall characteristics, hence a real stall, to be done.
Makes sense to me, regularly done every now & then as a check on what the ASI says at these critically low velocities.
Worth doing with pax & loaded too - at plenty of height.
Spin off the final two turns on landing ?
I watch the speedo like a hawk and get on one stage of flap before then, mostly slowed down to flap speed at the latter part of downwind. On my Rans that reduces stall by ~3 to 4 mph, all very useful for the last bit !
mike hallam.