Stall Spin Awareness/Recovery
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For me it is vital to teach pilots being beyond the limits in all flight regimes.
As I stated before I used to race cars and as such was comfortable in a racing car on the limits and beyond at high speed.
Those skills have saved my bacon nowadays on numerous occasions.
Not so the driver who has never experienced a car beyond the limits who understeers straight into a brick wall because they know no better.
They maybe safe careful drivers until one day something happens.
Its the same with flying teaching avoidance does not teach a pilot to be comfortable with an aircraft beyond the limits and hence his chances have to be smaller of recovering.
If you dont experience spinning how do you know whether you are spinning or in a spiral dive? Both requiring very different techniques to recover? They also require an instant instinctive response gained through comfort and familiarity.
Pace
As I stated before I used to race cars and as such was comfortable in a racing car on the limits and beyond at high speed.
Those skills have saved my bacon nowadays on numerous occasions.
Not so the driver who has never experienced a car beyond the limits who understeers straight into a brick wall because they know no better.
They maybe safe careful drivers until one day something happens.
Its the same with flying teaching avoidance does not teach a pilot to be comfortable with an aircraft beyond the limits and hence his chances have to be smaller of recovering.
If you dont experience spinning how do you know whether you are spinning or in a spiral dive? Both requiring very different techniques to recover? They also require an instant instinctive response gained through comfort and familiarity.
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 20th May 2012 at 10:28.
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I totally agree with Pace, in my opinion it is a good idea for a student pilot to have experienced a spin and flown the recovery, equally teaching the student the sets of conditions that might lead to a spin are just as important.
I instructed to both the old syllabus (which included spinning) and to the current syllabus. Both have merits and a combination of the two is in my opinion perhaps the safest way of being a better pilot.
At the time of spinning being removed from the syllabus I can remember the debate about if a properly taught spin was dangerous or if it made the pilot feel ill....
With respect to the PA38 spin, that is not difficult. It does recover easily if correct technique is used. However what caught people out was the fact that the rate of spin rotation increased when anti spin technique was applied, prior to the spin stopping. Some people are thought to have panicked at this, hence giving up and spinning into the ground.
Pace is again correct, people need to be able to instinctively recognise the difference between a spin and a spiral dive and the recovery techniques.That is not from having been told about the differences but from practical first hand knowledge.
I instructed to both the old syllabus (which included spinning) and to the current syllabus. Both have merits and a combination of the two is in my opinion perhaps the safest way of being a better pilot.
At the time of spinning being removed from the syllabus I can remember the debate about if a properly taught spin was dangerous or if it made the pilot feel ill....
With respect to the PA38 spin, that is not difficult. It does recover easily if correct technique is used. However what caught people out was the fact that the rate of spin rotation increased when anti spin technique was applied, prior to the spin stopping. Some people are thought to have panicked at this, hence giving up and spinning into the ground.
Pace is again correct, people need to be able to instinctively recognise the difference between a spin and a spiral dive and the recovery techniques.That is not from having been told about the differences but from practical first hand knowledge.
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Stall/Spin has the P.A.R.E recovery technique as tested by NASA etc.
does a spiral dive have a similar type published generic recovery procedure?
does a spiral dive have a similar type published generic recovery procedure?
There is no absolute generic stall recovery procedure, although most are extremely similar. FAA and CAA publish slightly different procedures, whilst both have been busy recently beating flight schools over the head about teaching a third they don't like - namely powering out of a stall with the stick still back.
The RAF, quite rightly in my opinion, teach a generic "initial loss of control" recovery, which is essentially "close throttle, put everything in the middle"; in virtually all aeroplanes this will recover from an incipient spin.
And then there is the recovery from a developed spin, which is not generic. The NASA / FAA drill is a starting point for flight test programmes, but it should not be used generically. The flight manual technique for a given aeroplane should be used. period.
Why?
- Some aeroplanes with very powerful rudders need a rudder central recovery otherwise they may kick into a spin in the opposite direction.
- Some swept wing aeroplanes need a back stick recovery otherwise the fin is blanked.
- Some aeroplanes need a delay between opposite rudder and forward stick, otherwise they will bunt potentially out of negative g limits.
- Some aeroplanes will not recover unless the recovery is flown from full pro-spin controls first.
Whilst most common GA aeroplanes will respond appropriately to what is commonly called the Standard Spin Recovery, or SSR, there are gotchas that can bite.
Incidentally most spin research indicates that a truly stable spin mode is achieved in about 6 turns, not 2.
G
The RAF, quite rightly in my opinion, teach a generic "initial loss of control" recovery, which is essentially "close throttle, put everything in the middle"; in virtually all aeroplanes this will recover from an incipient spin.
And then there is the recovery from a developed spin, which is not generic. The NASA / FAA drill is a starting point for flight test programmes, but it should not be used generically. The flight manual technique for a given aeroplane should be used. period.
Why?
- Some aeroplanes with very powerful rudders need a rudder central recovery otherwise they may kick into a spin in the opposite direction.
- Some swept wing aeroplanes need a back stick recovery otherwise the fin is blanked.
- Some aeroplanes need a delay between opposite rudder and forward stick, otherwise they will bunt potentially out of negative g limits.
- Some aeroplanes will not recover unless the recovery is flown from full pro-spin controls first.
Whilst most common GA aeroplanes will respond appropriately to what is commonly called the Standard Spin Recovery, or SSR, there are gotchas that can bite.
Incidentally most spin research indicates that a truly stable spin mode is achieved in about 6 turns, not 2.
G
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Talking about differences in spin recovery techniques, another plus point about including spin training in the PPL is that the effects of controls in a spin can be looked at. If you read a POH that maybe just says use pro-spin aileron to effect recovery I think it would be good for the pilot to understand why, and I'm not sure that is currently the case.
I also think when it comes to stalling, instructors should make a point of demonstrating how little forward stick/ yoke is required to actually unstall an aircraft. The full-power and shove the stick/yoke forward is over-dramatising what would otherwise be a fairly gentle and underwhelming recovery. Then using power to minimise height loss.
Inverted flight and effects of controls would be another good thing to include in the PPL, but since most trainers can't do it I guess it never will be included.
I also think when it comes to stalling, instructors should make a point of demonstrating how little forward stick/ yoke is required to actually unstall an aircraft. The full-power and shove the stick/yoke forward is over-dramatising what would otherwise be a fairly gentle and underwhelming recovery. Then using power to minimise height loss.
Inverted flight and effects of controls would be another good thing to include in the PPL, but since most trainers can't do it I guess it never will be included.
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Pace: For me it is vital to teach pilots being beyond the limits in all flight regimes.
Concerning racing experience and road safety, most findings I am aware of do not report a better safety record for racing drivers, rather the reverse. I neither doubt your abilities nor that you averted an accident as a result of your skills, but maybe other people achieve the same result by judgment without having to revert to superior skills? (Again, no personal offense meant!)
Having said that I agree that having a bit of firsthand experience under instruction on quickly recognizing trouble and getting out of it knowing what to do is a valuable thing ... within the limits, at least for me, though.
BTW, I found it interesting to read that even (or rather: of all pilots?) a pilot with the experience, knowledge and skills of DAR claims to be somewhat leery of spins unless "necessary" and with all safety precautions (http://www.pprune.org/flying-instruc...ml#post7194881).
I think it would be good for the pilot to understand why,
The PhD and Test Pilot School are the only courses which covered that material, and I'd venture it's a bit much for PPL. That said, in my opinion spinning should be in the JAR/EASA CPL, which it isn't.
Do bear in mind that the job of a PPL is to create safe recreational pilots, who can go an do some learning on their own, not cover everything there is to know about flying.
G
Reference Pace's point, I was rather incredulous to read a recent GAPAN document which firmly stated that all PPL-level flying should be about operating firmly in the middle of the envelope, and anything else about getting back there again promptly.
I think that GAPAN are, bluntly, wrong. PPLs should be happy to do steep turns, slow flight, high speed flight if they want to. And training to the corners of the envelope (but clearly, not beyond, that's test pilot territory and requires some very very specialist training) should be a normal part of PPL training.
Which doesn't detract from training concentrating upon a normal and instinctive response to high AoA conditions is to get away from it quickly, UNLESS you went there deliberately and with prior thought.
G
I think that GAPAN are, bluntly, wrong. PPLs should be happy to do steep turns, slow flight, high speed flight if they want to. And training to the corners of the envelope (but clearly, not beyond, that's test pilot territory and requires some very very specialist training) should be a normal part of PPL training.
Which doesn't detract from training concentrating upon a normal and instinctive response to high AoA conditions is to get away from it quickly, UNLESS you went there deliberately and with prior thought.
G
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Certainly agree with those sentiments Genghis,
As far as:-
This is a known characteristic of the spin in most aircraft that spin properly, and pointing this out should be part of the spin training.
Also, WRT to :-
Certainly I teach, and AFAIK most UK instructors move from full stall to recovery at the incipient stage with minimum height loss, and the emphasis there is very much on a small check forward to unstall the aircraft.
As far as:-
However what caught people out was the fact that the rate of spin rotation increased when anti spin technique was applied, prior to the spin stopping
Also, WRT to :-
instructors should make a point of demonstrating how little forward stick/ yoke is required to actually unstall an aircraft. The full-power and shove the stick/yoke forward is over-dramatising what would otherwise be a fairly gentle and underwhelming recovery. Then using power to minimise height loss.
Last edited by foxmoth; 20th May 2012 at 14:54. Reason: spelling
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Concerning racing experience and road safety, most findings I am aware of do not report a better safety record for racing drivers, rather the reverse.
On the other extreme I knew an accountant who was Mr safety in a car, ultra cautious right on the speed limit button.
He was fine till he coasted a brow of a hill to be met by a stationary broken down vehicle swerved, understeered straight into a bank which inverted the car. He and his wife were then hospitalised for months.
I would think that skid pan training for the ordinary motorist is a must and hardly equates to racing driver mentality but equips the driver with skills and an awareness of what does happen.
Do you teach students about fully developed spiral dives which can be very uncomfortable and themselves carry a certain risk.
I just feel avoidance training while excellent does not instill the instinctive reaction and identification of what the aircraft is doing as it leaves many things lodged in the unknown for the student pilot.
Avoidance maybe great but at some time you maybe faced with being unable to avoid.
While I appreciate you cannot do safe spin training in all aircraft you can in some.
Just to isolate spinning is also too narrow as the pilot should be aware of all the handling attributes of the aircraft he is flying.
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 20th May 2012 at 16:09.
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I was just highlighting the fact that un-stalling doesn't require an aggressive control input. If you need power then add power. If you need full power than use it.
You make it sound so difficult. If the average PPL can learn effects of controls in the upright sense, why should they not be able to do it in the inverted sense, or when in a spin? Surely having some understanding is better than having none at all.
the PhD and Test Pilot School are the only courses which covered that material, and I'd venture it's a bit much for PPL.
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PPLs should be happy to do steep turns, slow flight, high speed flight if they want to. And training to the corners of the envelope (but clearly, not beyond, that's test pilot territory and requires some very very specialist training) should be a normal part of PPL training.
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If you need power then add power. If you need full power than use it.
The emphasis in stall recovery training is minimum height loss, there are also aircraft where full power can cause problem with pitch up - but even here the training on type should cover this, if you are stalling at height, then there may be times as an experienced pilot you might not want to use full power, but as far as most PPLs are concerned it IS FULL power on recovery.
Last edited by foxmoth; 20th May 2012 at 16:26.
A spin is an aerobatic manoever. I heartily endorse pilots getting training to improve their ability to control the aircraft no matter what its attitude or flight condition. But the place to do this is IMO an aerobatic course after the PPL not during the PPL training. In fact that is what I am doing right now with the last PPL I completed. During his PPL training the thrust of the training was stall and spin avoidance with the goal of building instinctive reactions to reduce AOA by pitching nose down and controlling yaw. Situations that would have inevitably led to a spin were recovered in one quarter to one third of a turn.
We are now at hour 5 of a 10 hour introductory course in aerobatics. The first 2 hours consisted of a good look at aircraft handling at high AOA, high pitch and bank angles, and the spin. The spin was first presented as a stand alone aerobatic manoever and then we looked at typical scenarios where the aircraft spins out of a botched manoever. My student is loving it and IMO this is the ideal progression for a PPL.
I firmly believe that instructors who are not competent aerobatic pilots should not be out spinning with students because they will not have a true understanding of spin dynamics, effective of controls in fully developed spins, and may not be able to recover if the aircraft does something dangerous.
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