N-reg situation update
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Even if they do find a spoiler, that won't be the end of it. They will just make new legislation up to cover it. And we will have a re run of the same arguments. Then eventually they will succeed.
And my conclusion for that is that I have every faith that the US won't change there licensing rules just to help out a very small number of pilots and aircraft in the EU. And the EU certainly won't take it up the bum and just say o well we tried but we are just going to have to admit defeat.
As one poster said some aprons your pax could get confused thinking you had landed in the states with the amount of N regs on it. They can't let a whole sector of avaition be regulated by a country thousands of miles away
And my conclusion for that is that I have every faith that the US won't change there licensing rules just to help out a very small number of pilots and aircraft in the EU. And the EU certainly won't take it up the bum and just say o well we tried but we are just going to have to admit defeat.
As one poster said some aprons your pax could get confused thinking you had landed in the states with the amount of N regs on it. They can't let a whole sector of avaition be regulated by a country thousands of miles away
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ChubbyChopper
I am very sure the regulation will change to what degree is the question.
EASA changed the deadline from 2012 to 2014 for the claimed sole purpose of obtaining a Bi Lateral agreement with the USA regarding licence recognition.
Most regarded that claim as false and as a smokescreen to smooth the way for the current legal framework to go into law.
We now know that both sides EASA and the FAA are motivated to add FCL to the bi lateral signed up recently.
EASA have only recently turned their attention towards a bi lateral on FCL and the good news is that both parties finally appear keen to achieve one.
EASA are also aware of legal problems regarding the present framework with employed working pilots so while I understand why you dont feel the regulations will change I am equally sure they will. What we have today will not be what we will have in 2014 or 2016 which I also feel is more likely!
To what extent those changes will be is the question mark but as a working ATP I wont be rushing off to study 14 exams quite yet.
pace
I am very sure the regulation will change to what degree is the question.
EASA changed the deadline from 2012 to 2014 for the claimed sole purpose of obtaining a Bi Lateral agreement with the USA regarding licence recognition.
Most regarded that claim as false and as a smokescreen to smooth the way for the current legal framework to go into law.
We now know that both sides EASA and the FAA are motivated to add FCL to the bi lateral signed up recently.
EASA have only recently turned their attention towards a bi lateral on FCL and the good news is that both parties finally appear keen to achieve one.
EASA are also aware of legal problems regarding the present framework with employed working pilots so while I understand why you dont feel the regulations will change I am equally sure they will. What we have today will not be what we will have in 2014 or 2016 which I also feel is more likely!
To what extent those changes will be is the question mark but as a working ATP I wont be rushing off to study 14 exams quite yet.
pace
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To what extent those changes will be is the question mark but as a working ATP I wont be rushing off to study 14 exams quite yet.
pace
pace
I do not believe for one minute an agreement will be made that will give you what you want. The FAA will not give into the demands if EASA and the EASA demands are ridiculous.
But hey, I'm in it for the long game, so let's see what happens.
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The EASA plans are rediculous for a very good reason which is as Bose stated so they don't have a hope in hell of getting them. And even if they do get them I have every faith in the US senate doing there usual and vetoing any changes. There are way to many things that have to line up and there are just as many out there trying to scupper them as there are trying to get them through if not more. Both on the US side of things and the EU.
As a pro pilot you would have to be barking mad not to have already started the proccess to get the required licenses. When it falls through and eveyone has to. Its going to be a nightmare get the exams sorted, more than likely if you do get a seat it will be in Glasgow (if they even still have that one open) The Intergrated schools book theres months in advance and it can be 2-3 months before you can get your local center when demand is high.
As a pro pilot you would have to be barking mad not to have already started the proccess to get the required licenses. When it falls through and eveyone has to. Its going to be a nightmare get the exams sorted, more than likely if you do get a seat it will be in Glasgow (if they even still have that one open) The Intergrated schools book theres months in advance and it can be 2-3 months before you can get your local center when demand is high.
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Pace
I get your drift, and agree that not doing the 14 exams much before 2014 is a reasonable decision - for a UK based private owner-pilot or a UK based "working pilot" like you are.
I did the JAA IR in 2011/2012 primarily because I considered that capturing the current 15hr IR conversion option was a reasonably prudent policy. Had that option been lost, I would have faced the full grim option of burning 50hrs pf my time and avgas into my logbook.
As it happens, that option has been technically lost, but it appears to be carrying on for the time being because nobody knows what to replace it with
The next factor behind getting this stuff in the bag is the existence of the question bank, without which the study workload goes up massively. Particularly depressing as the theory is a good 90% useless garbage which was tossed out by the RAF in the 1970s due to lack of relevance and picked up by a departing RAF ground technician who then positioned it into the right place at the right time.
What I might not agree with you on is the BASA even if we assume it will come. I simply do not believe that EASA will agree to a straight paper swap on FCL, perhaps with air law and radio comms exams. This would undermine everything that Europe stands for which is ripping off FAA regs and gold plating them to protect European jobs. It would severely damage the European FTO industry because all the young skint lads who desperately want to be airline pilots would sod off to Arizona and do their CPL/IRs out there and then come back here to convert them. Forget "aviation" and just look at the politics - that's always been the right way to see this stuff.
I don't think EASA will ever negotiate an FCL BASA in good faith - unless there is a huge prize to be had elsewhere, along the lines of the USA allowing Euro airlines to operate internal US routes.
IOW, IMHO, the best BASA-assisted outcome will be something approximating the present 15hr IR conversion route, with the added risk of no QB.
I get your drift, and agree that not doing the 14 exams much before 2014 is a reasonable decision - for a UK based private owner-pilot or a UK based "working pilot" like you are.
I did the JAA IR in 2011/2012 primarily because I considered that capturing the current 15hr IR conversion option was a reasonably prudent policy. Had that option been lost, I would have faced the full grim option of burning 50hrs pf my time and avgas into my logbook.
As it happens, that option has been technically lost, but it appears to be carrying on for the time being because nobody knows what to replace it with
The next factor behind getting this stuff in the bag is the existence of the question bank, without which the study workload goes up massively. Particularly depressing as the theory is a good 90% useless garbage which was tossed out by the RAF in the 1970s due to lack of relevance and picked up by a departing RAF ground technician who then positioned it into the right place at the right time.
What I might not agree with you on is the BASA even if we assume it will come. I simply do not believe that EASA will agree to a straight paper swap on FCL, perhaps with air law and radio comms exams. This would undermine everything that Europe stands for which is ripping off FAA regs and gold plating them to protect European jobs. It would severely damage the European FTO industry because all the young skint lads who desperately want to be airline pilots would sod off to Arizona and do their CPL/IRs out there and then come back here to convert them. Forget "aviation" and just look at the politics - that's always been the right way to see this stuff.
I don't think EASA will ever negotiate an FCL BASA in good faith - unless there is a huge prize to be had elsewhere, along the lines of the USA allowing Euro airlines to operate internal US routes.
IOW, IMHO, the best BASA-assisted outcome will be something approximating the present 15hr IR conversion route, with the added risk of no QB.
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Pace can just do a straight exams then skills test with a TRE on his type. Which more than likely can be combined with his FAA check. He won't have to fanny around in a piston unless he wants to.
I wouldn't be to sure about leaving it until 2014 all it takes is one crash in the wrong country and the insurance not paying out and the game changes quite dramatically.
It also opens your estate up for all sorts of liablities so not only one parent less but also pennyless as well.
I wouldn't be to sure about leaving it until 2014 all it takes is one crash in the wrong country and the insurance not paying out and the game changes quite dramatically.
It also opens your estate up for all sorts of liablities so not only one parent less but also pennyless as well.
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Peter
I do not disagree with a lot of what your saying especially the fact that EASA will never allow an FAA route to bypass or make a fast track to an EASA commercial and I also agree that a lot of these regulations are protectionism based.
What I fail to understand is that before I considered the Bi Lateral regarding FCL to be a smokescreen purely to smooth ride the new regs into existence.
Now I know the 2012 to 2014 and possibly 2016 move is for real and the EASA Motives are genuine.
What more it appears that the FAA are also motivated.
I am equally convinced that there will never be a time when I will take my FAA ATP into an office to exchange it for an EASA one.
Bose gone are the days when you could take your FAA licence to Ireland and get it swopped for an Irish and hence JAA one. I was so so close to doing that now I could kick myself yet I know many pilots a lot who are the most anti FAA who took that route and others to an easy JAA licence!!
As an older pilot and a working pilot I am reliably told that the present new regs regarding working employed pilots in Europe would not stand up in the European courts if challenged so EASA will have to do something.
I am sure after june things will either look more hopeful or less hopeful and by the end of this year pretty clear on where things are going so I wont start 14 exams at my age just to do what I am already doing perfectly safely quite yet.
Pace
I do not disagree with a lot of what your saying especially the fact that EASA will never allow an FAA route to bypass or make a fast track to an EASA commercial and I also agree that a lot of these regulations are protectionism based.
What I fail to understand is that before I considered the Bi Lateral regarding FCL to be a smokescreen purely to smooth ride the new regs into existence.
Now I know the 2012 to 2014 and possibly 2016 move is for real and the EASA Motives are genuine.
What more it appears that the FAA are also motivated.
I am equally convinced that there will never be a time when I will take my FAA ATP into an office to exchange it for an EASA one.
Bose gone are the days when you could take your FAA licence to Ireland and get it swopped for an Irish and hence JAA one. I was so so close to doing that now I could kick myself yet I know many pilots a lot who are the most anti FAA who took that route and others to an easy JAA licence!!
As an older pilot and a working pilot I am reliably told that the present new regs regarding working employed pilots in Europe would not stand up in the European courts if challenged so EASA will have to do something.
I am sure after june things will either look more hopeful or less hopeful and by the end of this year pretty clear on where things are going so I wont start 14 exams at my age just to do what I am already doing perfectly safely quite yet.
Pace
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I am sure after june things will either look more hopeful or less hopeful and by the end of this year pretty clear on where things are going so I wont start 14 exams at my age just to do what I am already doing perfectly safely quite yet.
You are already an ATP, the exams are just not that demanding for a man of your experience. There are no prescribed minima, no compulsory ground school attendance in fact as I understand it you can just direct enter for the exams and sit them and then and as MJ says do a skill test on your aircraft and you will get a JAA/EASA licence. If you have the MPA time you will get a direct ATPL, if not a CPL/IR.
With all due respect, your approach just smacks of petulance.
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He's not unemployable though.
Just not employable where he wants to be.
There are all manner of ****eholes out there that have N reg biz Jets looking for pilots. Which is what I think one of the counter arguments would be if it ever goes to court. Mind you I wouldn't fancy Nigeria either.
This hasn't grounded any of them they can still use thier licenses anywhere else that allows the practise or for that matter in the US if they can get employment visa's.
Just not employable where he wants to be.
There are all manner of ****eholes out there that have N reg biz Jets looking for pilots. Which is what I think one of the counter arguments would be if it ever goes to court. Mind you I wouldn't fancy Nigeria either.
This hasn't grounded any of them they can still use thier licenses anywhere else that allows the practise or for that matter in the US if they can get employment visa's.
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Bose
Yes my motives do smack of petulance
I admit it!
The FAA and transport Canada have a Bi Lateral agreement which involves one exam to convert one to the other and that seems to work well yet Canada is closer to Europe on its training structures.
I fly as a Captain on Citations and have done so for several organisations so I am petulant about studying 14 exams full of irrelevant material to do what I am already doing.
Air Law? Yes !! European airspace is different and there is total justification in sitting that exam or even a differences exam but 14 exams? That does not sit right in my mind.
If I have to do it I have to do it but the advice I have recieved from someone in the EASA negotiating team tells me to do nothing at least for the remainder of this year.
If I was in my early 40s absolutely as EASA would open more doors working for AOC Ops but late 50s? An EASA Licence will bring me nothing positive workwise so I have to look at the least painful route to maintain what I am doing and have been doing.
Flight test??I have never failed one in my life and that is of no concern and yes I would qualify for an EASA ATP.
You have to remember that we as FAA licensed pilots are the victims. N reg is not a new thing having been accepted practice with Europe for far longer than the EU has been in existence. Surely there must be some moral obligation to maintain those pilots rights to continue their work.
Mad Jock
No that would not be an argument as EC law covers Europe and people rights to employment in Europe not outer Mongolia
The sad thing is that some of the biggest opponent to FAA Licences are people who have never sat 14 exams and who obtained their JAA licences by jumping through loopholes with FAA licences in the past!
Pace
Yes my motives do smack of petulance
I admit it!The FAA and transport Canada have a Bi Lateral agreement which involves one exam to convert one to the other and that seems to work well yet Canada is closer to Europe on its training structures.
I fly as a Captain on Citations and have done so for several organisations so I am petulant about studying 14 exams full of irrelevant material to do what I am already doing.
Air Law? Yes !! European airspace is different and there is total justification in sitting that exam or even a differences exam but 14 exams? That does not sit right in my mind.
If I have to do it I have to do it but the advice I have recieved from someone in the EASA negotiating team tells me to do nothing at least for the remainder of this year.
If I was in my early 40s absolutely as EASA would open more doors working for AOC Ops but late 50s? An EASA Licence will bring me nothing positive workwise so I have to look at the least painful route to maintain what I am doing and have been doing.
Flight test??I have never failed one in my life and that is of no concern and yes I would qualify for an EASA ATP.
You have to remember that we as FAA licensed pilots are the victims. N reg is not a new thing having been accepted practice with Europe for far longer than the EU has been in existence. Surely there must be some moral obligation to maintain those pilots rights to continue their work.
Mad Jock
Which is what I think one of the counter arguments would be if it ever goes to court.
The sad thing is that some of the biggest opponent to FAA Licences are people who have never sat 14 exams and who obtained their JAA licences by jumping through loopholes with FAA licences in the past!
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 20th Apr 2012 at 11:16.
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About the exams. I resat the JAR ATPLS to get a rating which due to the recession meant I really didnt use them, but they came in handy converting my hybrid CAA JAR CPL to a full JAR CPL. I have sat the old UK 14 CPL exams and the old CAA ATPL exams, which were really tough. The JAR ones in comparison are as total piece of p@@@. Not sure what EASA will be like, but I here they are not that bad.
10 years ago on PPRUNE there were loads of posts relating to CAA exams because they were so tough, you rarely see those posts anymore. With the question bank and experience an experienced pilot would breeze them, probably in about 6 - 8 weeks, I am now getting quite involved with groundschool so am willing to help anybody if they need.
Most of you experienced guys would probably get 60 -70% without study, its the odd tricky question they put in that makes it slightly difficult, you have no partial pass rules anymore either - Yes a lot of info you will never use, but a whole lot you will already know and hence will not find difficult.
It may not be as big a hurdle as you all feel - it really isnt anymore. Im no brain box either if your wondering just normal Joe Blogs with a few O levels.
And I am really willing to help anybody. I am an Independent Financial Adviser by trade and have just had to take a load more exams to stay doing what I have been doing for 20 years, so I understand the emotion of doing exams to keep doing what you have been doing - hence I have to let pursuit of flying anything larger go, but Im remaining a GA Instructor Examiner and Ground Instructor, part time. So PM me if you wish for a chat.
10 years ago on PPRUNE there were loads of posts relating to CAA exams because they were so tough, you rarely see those posts anymore. With the question bank and experience an experienced pilot would breeze them, probably in about 6 - 8 weeks, I am now getting quite involved with groundschool so am willing to help anybody if they need.
Most of you experienced guys would probably get 60 -70% without study, its the odd tricky question they put in that makes it slightly difficult, you have no partial pass rules anymore either - Yes a lot of info you will never use, but a whole lot you will already know and hence will not find difficult.
It may not be as big a hurdle as you all feel - it really isnt anymore. Im no brain box either if your wondering just normal Joe Blogs with a few O levels.
And I am really willing to help anybody. I am an Independent Financial Adviser by trade and have just had to take a load more exams to stay doing what I have been doing for 20 years, so I understand the emotion of doing exams to keep doing what you have been doing - hence I have to let pursuit of flying anything larger go, but Im remaining a GA Instructor Examiner and Ground Instructor, part time. So PM me if you wish for a chat.
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Aware
Thanks for your kind offer which I may still take up As stated if I was 40 it would be a no brainer and after the June meeting it still maybe a no brainer if there is no positive movement to a Bi Lat.
A lot with me is the principal which should be for experienced and current jet Captains a straight differences exam and flight test.
Pace
Thanks for your kind offer which I may still take up
As stated if I was 40 it would be a no brainer and after the June meeting it still maybe a no brainer if there is no positive movement to a Bi Lat.A lot with me is the principal which should be for experienced and current jet Captains a straight differences exam and flight test.
Pace
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Pace, sorry mate but that just is NOT going to happen, EVER!! Your bar confidant is leading you up the garden path, so do yourself a big favour and take the exams...it aint rocket science, and if you have even 100 hours of jet time you will p1ss them in one take.
You keep banging on about the hardship of taking exams...what about the poor sods who can't pass the medical? Did you ever bother to think of them? Probably not huh? You were too busy banging on about the difficulty of passing exams which, I presume, you decided to avoid earlier in your career.
Swallow the pill.....the rights and wrongs of this issue relate to a period that is well gone and as hard as you may wish it to be undone it just is NOT going to happen!
I disagree with all of it too, but hey ho that's the way it goes!
You keep banging on about the hardship of taking exams...what about the poor sods who can't pass the medical? Did you ever bother to think of them? Probably not huh? You were too busy banging on about the difficulty of passing exams which, I presume, you decided to avoid earlier in your career.
Swallow the pill.....the rights and wrongs of this issue relate to a period that is well gone and as hard as you may wish it to be undone it just is NOT going to happen!
I disagree with all of it too, but hey ho that's the way it goes!
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ChubbyChopper
No I very much do think of the poor sods who wont pass a EASA class I initial.
With all my scuba diving I have done I worry about the audio gram myself
and have an African friend who went FAA because of his eyesight.
Post June and no bilateral in sight and I will take your advice.
Wish I had jumped through the Irish and other loopholes like many here years ago and exchanged my shiny FAA for an over the counter JAA.
Pace
No I very much do think of the poor sods who wont pass a EASA class I initial.
With all my scuba diving I have done I worry about the audio gram myself
and have an African friend who went FAA because of his eyesight.Post June and no bilateral in sight and I will take your advice.
Wish I had jumped through the Irish and other loopholes like many here years ago and exchanged my shiny FAA for an over the counter JAA.
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 21st Apr 2012 at 00:20.
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Wish I had jumped through the Irish and other loopholes like many here years ago and exchanged my shiny FAA for an over the counter JAA.
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The audio exam for already licensed pilots is actually very hard to fail especially if you have any rotary time.
Even if you do fail it with a doc all you need to do is get and examinor or line training Captain to chat to you on an intercom and if you can hear him he signs you off and thats it done.
Even if you do fail it with a doc all you need to do is get and examinor or line training Captain to chat to you on an intercom and if you can hear him he signs you off and thats it done.
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MadJock
What did you say cant hear a bloody thing
No hearing not bad just one ear not as hot as the other due scuba diving with a cold
One thing I have clarified which is causing major concern and also a misconception concerns Derogation!
Derogation concerns flight crew licencing and EASA licences.
It has nothing to do with dual licence requirements which has been moved to 2014 plus one year dispensation for those on a conversion course.
You are not flying illegally into some countries NOW!
EASA did move to 2014 for the sole reason of gaining a Bi Lateral with the USA remember the USA have a Bi Lateral with transport Canada a system fairly similar to our own.
There is a high powered meeting in June with both sides motivated.
This will not mean little Joe will be able to sidestep EASA by gaining an FAA Licence but it may mean ATP holders with certain experience and hours will have an easier route.
Pace
What did you say cant hear a bloody thing
No hearing not bad just one ear not as hot as the other due scuba diving with a cold
One thing I have clarified which is causing major concern and also a misconception concerns Derogation!
Derogation concerns flight crew licencing and EASA licences.
It has nothing to do with dual licence requirements which has been moved to 2014 plus one year dispensation for those on a conversion course.
You are not flying illegally into some countries NOW!
EASA did move to 2014 for the sole reason of gaining a Bi Lateral with the USA remember the USA have a Bi Lateral with transport Canada a system fairly similar to our own.
There is a high powered meeting in June with both sides motivated.
This will not mean little Joe will be able to sidestep EASA by gaining an FAA Licence but it may mean ATP holders with certain experience and hours will have an easier route.
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 21st Apr 2012 at 09:30.
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4000 hours of Garrett engines droning away is whats done for mine. Not that 15 years working with grinders etc in oil yards etc did me much good before that.
Although the seat change did mean that instead of having one ****e ear the other one is now also ****e. Although I am told I have good hearing for a TP driver. The 737 boys tend to have bad hearing as well especially if they go onto speaker in the cruise or have one muff off.
They honestly arn't that fussy with the hearing, I presume it was so all the RAF mates could get a civi medical. Some of the ex rotary boys blow your head off if you don't sort the station box out before you plug in.
Although the seat change did mean that instead of having one ****e ear the other one is now also ****e. Although I am told I have good hearing for a TP driver. The 737 boys tend to have bad hearing as well especially if they go onto speaker in the cruise or have one muff off.
They honestly arn't that fussy with the hearing, I presume it was so all the RAF mates could get a civi medical. Some of the ex rotary boys blow your head off if you don't sort the station box out before you plug in.