N-reg situation update
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Its interesting in that to to some extent none of this really matters to the average private pilot (over even small commerical operator) at the moment. It is quite clear that there is some much confusion you doubt any authority would bring a prosecution, and, if they did, you would doubt how successful they would be.
The real rub I guess for many is that (God forbid) if anything were to go wrong its whether or not the insurance company would have grounds for refusing the claim (and there in are the real dire consquences for most). I wonder if an an insurance company if asked the question (lets say in the circumstances peterh337 outlines) what their answer would be. I know their answer in one specific case but ultimately it is a matter between each owner and their insurance company.Were I in the situation I know I would want to ask the question and make certain I receive a written answer.
The real rub I guess for many is that (God forbid) if anything were to go wrong its whether or not the insurance company would have grounds for refusing the claim (and there in are the real dire consquences for most). I wonder if an an insurance company if asked the question (lets say in the circumstances peterh337 outlines) what their answer would be. I know their answer in one specific case but ultimately it is a matter between each owner and their insurance company.Were I in the situation I know I would want to ask the question and make certain I receive a written answer.
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This is all quite confusing in light of the recent AOPA announcement that the French had been asked (by EASA) to take a fresh look at GA regulation, from the ground up.
http://www.pprune.org/private-flying...anges-air.html
Why would they (EASA) ask the French to take a clean-sheet approach to this when, to all intents in purposes, the guillotine is on the way down already?
Is it really likely that, given all the apparent chaos and confusion, that in a year or so time, EASA will turn round and say "hey guys, we got it wrong, forget everything we've told you, we're using a new system [X] which is, (for the sake of argument) identical to the FAA system?
My gut feeling is that Part FCL will be adopted in its entirety in a couple of years or so and from there on, it will be pretty difficult to unwind the whole thing, even if the French, the Germans, the Irish, and every other member, all agrees (as do the board who have commissioned this report) that system X is the way ahead?
http://www.pprune.org/private-flying...anges-air.html
Why would they (EASA) ask the French to take a clean-sheet approach to this when, to all intents in purposes, the guillotine is on the way down already?
Is it really likely that, given all the apparent chaos and confusion, that in a year or so time, EASA will turn round and say "hey guys, we got it wrong, forget everything we've told you, we're using a new system [X] which is, (for the sake of argument) identical to the FAA system?
My gut feeling is that Part FCL will be adopted in its entirety in a couple of years or so and from there on, it will be pretty difficult to unwind the whole thing, even if the French, the Germans, the Irish, and every other member, all agrees (as do the board who have commissioned this report) that system X is the way ahead?
There is no EASA list saying who has adopted Part FCL and who has applied for derogations.
They have told me that they understand the vast majority of member states have adopted with effect from the 8th without derogation but are awaiting confirmation.
...
Speaking to the Spanish DGAC as well today, as far as they are concerned they have no plans to apply for a derogation at this time so expect N Reg pilots to be compliant.
...
Speaking to the Spanish DGAC as well today, as far as they are concerned they have no plans to apply for a derogation at this time so expect N Reg pilots to be compliant.
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There are a lot of things that you would expect. Lets see if they happen and then we can be astonished or just flabbergasted....
Personally I would think that if they have not bothered yet then they may not bother. The UK CAA were ready....
Personally I would think that if they have not bothered yet then they may not bother. The UK CAA were ready....
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Hmmm, I have to say Bookie is usually correct, but time will indeed tell.
What a complete mess - which I did pint out some moons ago, to be told by certain forumites that I was wrong and EASA are entirely fit for purpose, open and transparent. I wonder if you still think so 421C?
What a complete mess - which I did pint out some moons ago, to be told by certain forumites that I was wrong and EASA are entirely fit for purpose, open and transparent. I wonder if you still think so 421C?
As a Brit living and flying the US I follow all this with horror. If one day I do decide to return to Europe I think it will be time to hang up my headset for good or maybe buy an LSA or an Extra but certainly give up the concept of flying for the purpose of going somewhere.
It's interesting hat the EU member states seem to be getting generally fed up with the incomprehensible bureaucratic mess that Brussels has become. In a completely different field my wife is very actively involved in some new EU initiatives and the member state attitude seems to be "do what you want, we'll just make sure that whatever you do it doesn't apply to MY country".
It's interesting hat the EU member states seem to be getting generally fed up with the incomprehensible bureaucratic mess that Brussels has become. In a completely different field my wife is very actively involved in some new EU initiatives and the member state attitude seems to be "do what you want, we'll just make sure that whatever you do it doesn't apply to MY country".
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I know their answer in one specific case
do what you want, we'll just make sure that whatever you do it doesn't apply to MY country
I would be astonished if there are any states that do not apply the horizontal derogation (i.e. everything) in the 30th March amending regulation.
One problem with this stuff is that I don't think much of Europe has actually read these regs
Inside each national CAA, there are probably only just 1 or 2 people who can understand them as a whole.
Many pilots I know of have phoned their national CAA, only to be told that nobody there knows what to do or what it means, and sent the pilot off to ask EASA. But that is bizzare because EASA "only" drew up the rules; they are not any kind of legal interpreter of them. Only a court can definitively interpret a law which is on the books.
Do they have to notify EASA?
I've heard a timescale of a couple of months mentioned for notifying derogations, but I haven't seen chapter and verse.
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I contacted my regulator today.....response "we are not sure. We'll get back to you."
I think I'll try my insurance company now...perhaps they have a definition of "operator," or will name the states within which we may fly, or not fly, (ie., those who have applied for derogation, and those who have not) when using FAA licenced crew in our TCO registered aircraft, which may, or not be, operated (depending on the definition) by a "management company" based inside the EU or elsewhere.
I feel like someone has stood me in a barrel and told me to piss in the corner = confused!
I think I'll try my insurance company now...perhaps they have a definition of "operator," or will name the states within which we may fly, or not fly, (ie., those who have applied for derogation, and those who have not) when using FAA licenced crew in our TCO registered aircraft, which may, or not be, operated (depending on the definition) by a "management company" based inside the EU or elsewhere.
I feel like someone has stood me in a barrel and told me to piss in the corner = confused!
bookworm
These EASA documents are uninteligable to the ordinary mortal, we are not lawyers. We need the information in plain English. Because of this EASA mess, many people are now probably flying unlicenced and therefore uninsured.
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cessnapete - Hear Hear Like 
Perhaps in future there will be a legal requirement for all pilots to carry not just a map but a huge tome with all the EASA regulations.
Perhaps in future there will be a legal requirement for all pilots to carry not just a map but a huge tome with all the EASA regulations.
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Perhaps in future there will be a legal requirement for all pilots to carry not just a map but a huge tome with all the EASA regulations.
These EASA documents are uninteligable to the ordinary mortal, we are not lawyers. We need the information in plain English.
Because of this EASA mess, many people are now probably flying unlicenced and therefore uninsured.
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Germany seems to have gone for a 1 year derogation; that's a translation of that German site by a German pilot. I have no more details e.g. which of the two derogations they have gone for.
The real Q is who decides you are illegal. In these circumstances it can only be a court interpreting the regs (during a prosecution) which are so vague they can be argued about for ages.
If one is talking about prosecutions i.e. a criminal offence then all the pub lawyers thinking they know how an "operator resident in the EU" is defined are not worth anything.
I would suggest contacting your insurer is much more relevant. I did that, and the reply was that in the present circumstances (where even the CAAs don't know what the regs mean) they would not regard the flight as illegal, especially if the paper issue is not relevant to the incident (which it almost never is anyway). It thus appears to me that insurers are not going to try interpreting the EASA regs for themselves, keep their decision quiet, and then refuse to pay out if you have a prang.
As I have written here countless times, I did the JAA IR not because I was worried about illegality (because the EASA FCL reg is a load of vague self evident crap which nobody will know how to police for ages, if ever) but because of the insurance angle.
What I did not expect, and nobody else did either by the looks of it, is that the situation would become 10x more vague by most of the EU ignoring the regs totally as if they never read them (which most probably haven't). This makes the insurance angle pretty vague also.
The other reason I did the JAA IR (conversion) is because I was concerned for the lifetime of the very valuable 15hr conversion route. It now appears that since nobody knows what to do, the present route looks like it is just carrying on. I gather the UK CAA is happy to approve the "abbreviated approved course" if it is still 15hrs like at present, with maybe a bit of flexibility. But almost nobody is doing the JAA IR conversion anyway..............
I think that quite unlikely.
If one is talking about prosecutions i.e. a criminal offence then all the pub lawyers thinking they know how an "operator resident in the EU" is defined are not worth anything.
I would suggest contacting your insurer is much more relevant. I did that, and the reply was that in the present circumstances (where even the CAAs don't know what the regs mean) they would not regard the flight as illegal, especially if the paper issue is not relevant to the incident (which it almost never is anyway). It thus appears to me that insurers are not going to try interpreting the EASA regs for themselves, keep their decision quiet, and then refuse to pay out if you have a prang.
As I have written here countless times, I did the JAA IR not because I was worried about illegality (because the EASA FCL reg is a load of vague self evident crap which nobody will know how to police for ages, if ever) but because of the insurance angle.
What I did not expect, and nobody else did either by the looks of it, is that the situation would become 10x more vague by most of the EU ignoring the regs totally as if they never read them (which most probably haven't). This makes the insurance angle pretty vague also.
The other reason I did the JAA IR (conversion) is because I was concerned for the lifetime of the very valuable 15hr conversion route. It now appears that since nobody knows what to do, the present route looks like it is just carrying on. I gather the UK CAA is happy to approve the "abbreviated approved course" if it is still 15hrs like at present, with maybe a bit of flexibility. But almost nobody is doing the JAA IR conversion anyway..............
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Watch this extract from the EU:
Then watch the response from the boss of EASA reply: (it starts 1 min into video)
EASA Nonsense 2.wmv - YouTube
We are all talking nonsense - that's official from the boss of EASA
Then watch the response from the boss of EASA reply: (it starts 1 min into video)
EASA Nonsense 2.wmv - YouTube
We are all talking nonsense - that's official from the boss of EASA
What I did not expect, and nobody else did either by the looks of it, is that the situation would become 10x more vague by most of the EU ignoring the regs totally as if they never read them (which most probably haven't). This makes the insurance angle pretty vague also.
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The real Q is who decides you are illegal. In these circumstances it can only be a court interpreting the regs (during a prosecution) which are so vague they can be argued about for ages.
I think this is the hub. If our regulator, CAA, can't give any definitive angle or interpretation, and Insurance companies have no clue, like the rest of us, then it can be easily argued that pilots/operators who have covered the angles, and have remained as current and licenced as possible, then frankly, I do not feel there is much to worry about, re illegality/prosecution issues.
The chance of your insurer giving a written note to that effect is probably zero however. Has the CAA offered anyone written confirmation of their own personal status, when asked by telephone????
I think this is the hub. If our regulator, CAA, can't give any definitive angle or interpretation, and Insurance companies have no clue, like the rest of us, then it can be easily argued that pilots/operators who have covered the angles, and have remained as current and licenced as possible, then frankly, I do not feel there is much to worry about, re illegality/prosecution issues.
The chance of your insurer giving a written note to that effect is probably zero however. Has the CAA offered anyone written confirmation of their own personal status, when asked by telephone????
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I have tried to wade through most of the pages of this thread, but I'm afraid my brain has gone numb.
As this is a Private Flying forum, I would like to ask a simple question to which I hope there is a simple answer.
I very recently obtained a UK CAA JAA PPL(H) - it says it was "issued in accordance with ICAO and JAR-FCL standards".
I 'own' (through a US trust) an N-registered helicopter, and fly purely privately wholly in the UK.
Am I currently legal to do this?
As this is a Private Flying forum, I would like to ask a simple question to which I hope there is a simple answer.
I very recently obtained a UK CAA JAA PPL(H) - it says it was "issued in accordance with ICAO and JAR-FCL standards".
I 'own' (through a US trust) an N-registered helicopter, and fly purely privately wholly in the UK.
Am I currently legal to do this?
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It sounds like you are.
You can go back to the article that started the thread here PPL/IR Europe - EASA Part FCL and Foreign-Registered Aircraft (FRA)
It provides a one-page summary of the situation for UK residents and the CAA source.
brgds
421C
You can go back to the article that started the thread here PPL/IR Europe - EASA Part FCL and Foreign-Registered Aircraft (FRA)
It provides a one-page summary of the situation for UK residents and the CAA source.
brgds
421C