N-reg situation update

[Fuji Abound]

421c i am pleased to see you have joined the debate and forgive me repeating but i told you so. I dont say that with any pleasure but more in the hope that you do at least now agree!

[peterh337]

I very recently obtained a UK CAA JAA PPL(H) - it says it was "issued in accordance with ICAO and JAR-FCL standards".
I 'own' (through a US trust) an N-registered helicopter, and fly purely privately wholly in the UK.

The state of registry (the USA i.e. the FAA for an N-reg aircraft) determines whether any particular pilot papers are valid for its aircraft.

In this case, FAR 61.3 is what you need to look up.

If you have a PPL(H) issued by the UK, you can fly in UK airspace.

If you have a PPL(H) issued by say France, you can fly in French airspace.

I don't see this privilege disappearing under the EASA FCL anti-N-reg proposals because it is nothing to do with that (you already have an EASA pilot license) and there is no (known/planned) proposal to impose long term parking limits on foreign reg aircraft.

Only the FAA could stop this, by amending FAR 61.3 to disallow the use of foreign pilot papers. But the USA rarely changes its regs substantively.

I have some notes here.

Pilots who are not mixing papers (e.g. flying a G-reg on a UK/JAA PPL) which is what most people do, do not need to understand this well, and indeed I am sure most don't. Certainly most pilots I meet haven't got a clue about this stuff, but then they don't need to - so long as they stick to the straightforward scenarios.

But pilots who are mixing papers do need to understand how this stuff works.

It's not particularly hard to understand, but one first needs to get away from the pub aviation barristers who come out with the "2 out of 3 rule" etc etc

[421C]

Fuji - agree with what? 421C

[Fuji Abound]

421c my post #89

[S-Works]

You should be careful with your 'I told you so's' Fuji because I told you this whole N reg situation was coming several years ago and you and Peter argued I was wrong.......

[peterh337]

Bose .................. X

[S-Works]

Harsh Peter, but not unexpected......

[mad_jock]

Peter alot of us have known this for years and told you it.

Also as well I don't think you realise how much negative feeling there is about the current N reg status Quo. Both in the industry and politically across europe.

And the political types and NAA's publicly getting there nose rubbed in the fact that N reg crowed say that there system is ****e just makes them more hard nosed.

Everytime I see a post saying the EU system is ****e (and I don't for one minute think its perfect just different philosophy which has lost its way) Compared to FAA or a public slagging off of the politicians involved all I think is bang another nail into the coffin. Any chance of a compromise is disappearing down the plug.

They don't care that people are going to loose thier jobs,
They don't care if flight safety is going to be reduced
They don't care that there will be less flying.
They don't care that revenue will be decreased.
They don't care if they are taken to court over it. But history shows pilots arn't very good at organising a coherent line of attack over issues.

All they care about is that the citizens and residents of thier countrys abide by the laws and philosophys of thier law makers.

Which is one of the reasons why I don't think there will ever be a easy swap for FAA tickets to EASA ones. Call it a fine for getting caught taking the piss with a loop hole.

The revamping will occur but only once the current N reg fleet has been much reduced to a fraction of what it was and the pilots have gone local again or are not flying in europe in protest.

[Bob Upanddown]

It sounds like you are.
You can go back to the article that started the thread here PPL/IR Europe - EASA Part FCL and Foreign-Registered Aircraft (FRA)
It provides a one-page summary of the situation for UK residents and the CAA source.
brgds
421C

Will he stand up in a German court for you (or your estate)?
I think it is very dangerous to place your faith in the opinion of one man. Your note at the bottom pretty much says that. Ask three FSDO's in the USA for an opinion and you will get at least three different answers.
On what does he base he opinion that you can fly as UK resident in EU for another 2 years on an FAA IR only? He can only speak for UK and UK airspace??

[peterh337]

Also as well I don't think you realise how much negative feeling there is about the current N reg status Quo. Both in the industry and politically across europe.

Only among full-time gravy train riders. Of which there are many, of course. On here, too. In most cases they are obvious (FTO owners, for example). Some are G-reg charter pilots who are bitter about illegal charters and think that N-reg is to blame for that (but actually anybody with a brain will do illegal charter work in a G-reg ).

I also find that people who have done the whole JAA route tend to "go native". Maybe I will one day (I have no more papers that can be physically collected) but it doesn't look like it presently, does it?

But hey this is normal. I have a business in electronics. Been doing this since 1978 so have seen a few things pass by... more than most people actually. Almost nobody who started in business when I started is still working in it. Most have gone bust, or moved into Marketing BS5750, ISO9000, ROHS, REACH. WEEE, the list is longer than my arm. Every year we get a feast closely followed by a famine (the two terms are exchanged according to whether you are a supplier or a consumer ) as the sales reps go around spreading daaaark tales of impending shortages so they get people to over-order so they can collect their commissions and change jobs quickly.

Just now I have got an email with a 20 page questionnaire listing hundreds of substances which the Politburo in Brussels has banned and I must sign it to say our products don't contain any of them. It is an almost daily ritual now. Of course I will sign it; everybody does. Some arse covering idiot at the receiving end smiles and files it, and doesn't remove me from his approved supplier list He is probably on £50k plus a car. He is one of the winners...... but if I did his job I could not go home and say to my lady and my kids that I am proud of my job.

Each one is a gravy train for somebody. For every loser there is a winner, and the winner doesn't give a flying XXXX for what happens to the loser. The winners rarely if ever work in electronics manufacturing (they sit on committees and work for e.g. consulting companies ) just like the winners in aviation regulation are almost never pilots.

And the political types and NAA's publicly getting there nose rubbed in the fact that N reg crowed say that there system is ****e just makes them more hard nosed.

What do they expect? Do you seriously think that if p p r u n e was shut down, anything would change? I tell you what would change if internet forums vanished. With the sh****y PPL and IR training which is almost totally inadequate and irrelevant for the job, pilots would be much less clued-up than they are. I reckon 95% of tactical aviation expertise now comes from the internet, not from your instructor.

All they care about is that the citizens and residents of thier countrys abide by the laws and philosophys of thier law makers.

No they don't. They care about their well padded gravy trains. You need to get out more and meet some of the types behind this stuff.

Which is one of the reasons why I don't think there will ever be a easy swap for FAA tickets to EASA ones

That I agree with 100%. The "BASA around the corner" is a load of bull***t. But even if it wasn't it would never deliver a paper conversion route (along the lines of the old Irish FAA ATPL => JAA ATPL paper swap one for example).

That is why I did the JAA IR conversion (sorry to post that link again but many people email me saying how useful it is) because any conversion that might come is not likely to be significantly easier. Even if the exams shrink from the present 7 to say 2, all they need to do is remove the QB study option (which EASA clearly wants to do; refs in my writeup) and the study workload will be at/above the old system. And almost nobody will pass the JAA IRT without something like 15hrs' training. The "gravy tomorrow" talk is IMHO bollox. The option which is on the table now is close to the best possible future option (short of a total EU meltdown).

[mad_jock]

No nothing would happen if all the forums shut thier doors today. The damage has been done and the slow moving cogs have been put into motion. They will eventually reach thier destination.

I agree with the rest of it though.

And give you that it maybe gravy train iced with political morals (oxymoron that one) doesn't change the fact that N reg is humped in europe.

[peterh337]

Time will tell, but I agree that the pros and cons are changing over time.

But they've been changing for a long time anyway. If you read the pros and cons here you can see they have always been pretty sharp tradeoffs, and this is just another negative to consider.

If the EU gave everybody with FAA papers the equivalent JAA papers, accepted FAA STCs and all other Approved Data, and some other stuff, the N-reg scene would dry up. I remember saying this to a JAA Director some years ago and he agreed. But this will never happen because the present "winners" would start a war. The EU is trying to crack a problem which is 100% their own fault for creating.

[mad_jock]

Prats like Weaver don't do your cause any good at all.

The engineering side of things may be sorted after the bulk of the N reg fleet is gone.

But I can't see the license stuff being sorted. And neither can I see us going to a rolling currency for the IR or MEP etc.

[peterh337]

Prats like Weaver don't do your cause any good at all.

He could have done the same on a G-reg. The UK CAA does practically zero ramp checks.

Aviation is full of "character types" and the biggest ones I have come across were all G-reg commercial operators.

The engineering side of things may be sorted after the bulk of the N reg fleet is gone.

You have no way to know that

But I can't see the license stuff being sorted. And neither can I see us going to a rolling currency for the IR or MEP etc.

Of course not, in Europe. Here, everybody is assumed to be crooked and faking their logbook, hence the annual flight.

[mad_jock]

You wouldn't have a one eyed commercial pilot he wouldn't get a commercial medical here.

And to be honest Weaver is being talked about pretty much world wide. He is the face of N reg in alot of places.

Engineering wise,

I don't have anyway of knowing that but it wouldn't generate half as much fuss as doing the same with licenses. And you could set a start date and everything after that date would be deemed new and comply's with both and anything prior to that would have to go through the old system.

And they have already agreed in principle and the FAA is willing to reciprocate which is a huge tick in the box which licensing won't get. It helps having Airbus and Boeing having a common interest in that occuring.

In fact it might be quite a good way to encourage the retirement off alot of the old flying school junk out there.

To be honest the low powered single engine side of things I can't really get excited about it not being tested. The multi engined side of things you need to get regular practise single engine, the work load goes through the roof and it can bite your arse hard very quickly. I believe the high powered single can be a bit fiesty as well on the go around and you need a knack and practise for a nengine failure not to be a certain crash.

[peterh337]

You wouldn't have a one eyed commercial pilot he wouldn't get a commercial medical here.

Come on MJ you are the biggest troll here after all.

The USA is full of one eyed pilots and they are all flying into LHR right now, and they are crashing on the ILS because with one eye you can turn onto the localiser only from one side and not the other.

I believe the high powered single can be a bit fiesty as well on the go around and you need a knack and practise for a nengine failure not to be a certain crash.

I am going to give up commenting on your posts.

[mad_jock]

There not actually, all those boys/girls have class 1 medicals.

You can get a Class II and III with one eye though under FAA.

Its the reason why Weaver went FAA in the first place.

Didn't a ppruner go for a swim in the Tay because they were a bit fiesty?

And that wasn't even a particularly powerful one.

[Fuji Abound]

Bose

You should be careful with your 'I told you so's' Fuji because I told you this
whole N reg situation was coming several years ago and you and Peter argued I
was wrong.......

Ah, but that is like the Sun's reporting of what the Chancellor said about the cap on charitable doantions.

In fact we said it would be extraordinarily difficult to draft legislation that would achieve this objective (you will recall the last attempt with regards based aircraft). Sounds to me "I told you so" was more than appropriate! The N reg situation has always been coming and will probably always be "coming" unless they finally manage to "kill" it off - they just might, but that is another story.

On the other hand you will of course recall your predictions with regards the IMCr - whilst we await the final outcome, I ownder if you feel a slight tremor beneath your feet?

421C I am glad to see the transparent process you previously referred to has taken some of the most experienced minds on this forum and others to find the relevant legislation and make sense of it. I do this sort of thing for a living and to be frank I have never seen such a cumbersome process. Personally it bothers me little, but that isnt the point. I dont know why but it bothers me a lot more than some people support the process.

[this is my username]

You can get an FAA Class 1 if you have monocular vision - all that is required is a Medical Flight Test with someone from the FAA.

You can also hold a JAA Class 1 medical if you are monocular.

Don't ask me how I know ..... I haven't hit anything yet.

[mad_jock]

I don't think you can any more. There was a period pre JAR when you could or if you held a Class 1 and had an accident and lost one you could continue.

So you can hold one if you have already got one but you can't get through an intial.