Glider Tugging
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And we should not tolerate it. In our own clubs we should stamp firmly on anybody who shows this sort of behaviour - welcome everybody, whatever they fly. Help them fit in, and when they screw up an break local rules, be nice about it, just make sure they know what they did and how not to do it again.
Equally, turn up somewhere different, and there's a moral imperative to understand that environment and fit in. We can all make the effort to do that.
Equally, turn up somewhere different, and there's a moral imperative to understand that environment and fit in. We can all make the effort to do that.
Why can't aviators be aviators? Reminds me of the Life of Brian where you get the People's Popular Front of Judea infighting against the Popular Front of the People of Judea etc.
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Ooops, sorry, Chris N! meant to address the mention of Booker to the OP, r44heli.
And if you think glider pilots vs. GA vs. microlites etc is a problem, wait until you get involved in your local club politics! o dear.
I have a theory. In order to have the confidence to be a solo pilot, you are most likely to have a robust ego, and be of the male gender. Amazing that the human race has ever managed to cooperate at all, but we do. Nevertheless primitive emotions arise when strangers trespass on our tribal territory.....Enstone has been livid when glider pilots thermal away from the approach; any club running a winch operation wonders if the PA28 wandering through their overhead is aware we might have just launched a heavy two-seater and a braided steel wire is strung between it and the winch....the glider in such case has a very limited view because its nose is up in the air and the flight path near as dammit is vertical.
But we always welcome visitors from the dark side. PPR.
I have the impression that most power operations are commercial, certainly in the US of A most gliding clubs are commercial (that's why they don't usually let you fly their gliders x-country). To expect volunteers to do all the work in your gliding club....well, it is sad but true that a certain number will be too busy to help out.....amazing how many DO help out, but always the same old few. Perhaps all flying clubs should be operated on a commercial basis; the only sure way to get most people to work is to pay them.
In effect, r44heli, power pilots who have the opportunity to tow up gliders manage to rack up quite a few hours and a lot of takeoffs and landings, which to any pilot interested in hourbuilding has a certain value. It is not usually difficult finding a tuggie, they fight for the privilege....
And if you think glider pilots vs. GA vs. microlites etc is a problem, wait until you get involved in your local club politics! o dear.
I have a theory. In order to have the confidence to be a solo pilot, you are most likely to have a robust ego, and be of the male gender. Amazing that the human race has ever managed to cooperate at all, but we do. Nevertheless primitive emotions arise when strangers trespass on our tribal territory.....Enstone has been livid when glider pilots thermal away from the approach; any club running a winch operation wonders if the PA28 wandering through their overhead is aware we might have just launched a heavy two-seater and a braided steel wire is strung between it and the winch....the glider in such case has a very limited view because its nose is up in the air and the flight path near as dammit is vertical.
But we always welcome visitors from the dark side. PPR.
I have the impression that most power operations are commercial, certainly in the US of A most gliding clubs are commercial (that's why they don't usually let you fly their gliders x-country). To expect volunteers to do all the work in your gliding club....well, it is sad but true that a certain number will be too busy to help out.....amazing how many DO help out, but always the same old few. Perhaps all flying clubs should be operated on a commercial basis; the only sure way to get most people to work is to pay them.
In effect, r44heli, power pilots who have the opportunity to tow up gliders manage to rack up quite a few hours and a lot of takeoffs and landings, which to any pilot interested in hourbuilding has a certain value. It is not usually difficult finding a tuggie, they fight for the privilege....
Last edited by mary meagher; 26th Mar 2012 at 12:19. Reason: extra paragraph
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I'm not trying to be horrible, but it's often not very pleasant being towed by "power" pilots. Their biggest weaknesses are an inability to read the sky and a lack of understanding of glider performance. They often have some "interesting" habits as well. To be one, you really have to be a "glider" pilot first and foremost and also at most clubs there's rarely a shortage of drivers. It could well be that the driver is an airline pilot, an IT engineer or (god forbid) a banker. But they are at the club to fly gliders, not tugs. So when your average (and I'm not say you are) PPL pitches up, he'll generally have little to offer so gets short shrift. However, as a gliding club member who glides...
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In my time instructing at flying clubs I had always taken the view that Genghis takes and have given anyone who wants to fly a warm welcome as a fellow aviator.
I started aviating in ATC gliders and would have liked to return to gliding, Unfortunatly the attitude shown to me has put me off the idea.
Gliding in the UK is slowly dying with club memberships falling and no new blood getting into the sport, from my experience I can see why people are put off.
I started aviating in ATC gliders and would have liked to return to gliding, Unfortunatly the attitude shown to me has put me off the idea.
Gliding in the UK is slowly dying with club memberships falling and no new blood getting into the sport, from my experience I can see why people are put off.
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I started aviating in ATC gliders and would have liked to return to gliding,
Unfortunatly the attitude shown to me has put me off the idea.
Gliding in the UK is slowly dying with club memberships falling and no new blood getting into the sport, from my experience I can see why people are put off.
Unfortunatly the attitude shown to me has put me off the idea.
Gliding in the UK is slowly dying with club memberships falling and no new blood getting into the sport, from my experience I can see why people are put off.
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Aerotow incidents.
A couple of years ago. Busy aerotow queue. The chap with the cable was chatting whilst attaching it. to my glider.
Brakes closed and locked, up slack, all out. At about 40knts we lifted off and the brakes immediately popped open dropping us back on the tarmac - which closed the brakes again.
This repeated about 4 times before i pulled the release. The tug hadnt reached flying speed all through this.
No danger, no damage just my very red face.
Memo to self - DO NOT allow myself to be distracted whilst doing checks. Air brakes were closed but not locked.
A couple of years ago. Busy aerotow queue. The chap with the cable was chatting whilst attaching it. to my glider.
Brakes closed and locked, up slack, all out. At about 40knts we lifted off and the brakes immediately popped open dropping us back on the tarmac - which closed the brakes again.
This repeated about 4 times before i pulled the release. The tug hadnt reached flying speed all through this.
No danger, no damage just my very red face.
Memo to self - DO NOT allow myself to be distracted whilst doing checks. Air brakes were closed but not locked.
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I started on gliders did a Silver C conversion to PPL, became a Tug Pilot, joined the RAF, left the Service in the late eighties boom and eventually ended up in the LHS of a B737. I think the experience of tugging in a busy circuit was invaluable and the situational awareness was always useful.
It's certainly fairly dangerous - especially near the ground. I learned to be quite ruthless with the glider near the ground. If the glider pilot got too high then they were on there own.
As regards gliding clubs they are funny places and usually riddled with incestuous politics. Becoming a tug pilot means having a face that fits. Or, to be more practical about it, you have to able to fit in with how a gliding club operates - and they are all different.
I recall it being very political as to how many tows you were allowed to do on a given day. There was always the odd bugger would just hog the tug for most of the day only to be prised out with a lot of grumpy gesticulating.
Gliding and tugging were probably my 'salad days'. The pub crawls round the village pubs on a Saturday night were great fun too!
It's certainly fairly dangerous - especially near the ground. I learned to be quite ruthless with the glider near the ground. If the glider pilot got too high then they were on there own.
As regards gliding clubs they are funny places and usually riddled with incestuous politics. Becoming a tug pilot means having a face that fits. Or, to be more practical about it, you have to able to fit in with how a gliding club operates - and they are all different.
I recall it being very political as to how many tows you were allowed to do on a given day. There was always the odd bugger would just hog the tug for most of the day only to be prised out with a lot of grumpy gesticulating.
Gliding and tugging were probably my 'salad days'. The pub crawls round the village pubs on a Saturday night were great fun too!
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cumulus rider, been there, got the T-shirt! I was flying a 150 hp Supercub, with a climb prop, not bad performance. The glider was a K13. There was hassle and delay before the launch, we had been asked for noise abatement to choose another takeoff direction. So we had to wait for the winch cables to be withdrawn.
I was getting impatient and irritated. So made my own bed, so to speak.
When we finally got take up slack signal from the wingtip holder, I was not gentle. Bit of a yank, actually. Full power. Lifted off nicely like the cub always does, but rate of climb was NOT VERY GOOD. Possibly because we were no longer taking off directly into wind? T's and P's OK, engine sounded fine, and then, I looked in the rear view mirror.......
The K13 airbrakes had popped full open. I am towing a shed.
Now the BGA in their wisdom recommends at this point, the tuggie having realised the glider airbrakes are open, that you waggle your rudder.........!!@%&*!! No way Jose, my airspeed is below 50 knots, and we are staggering, you think I'm going to waggle my rudder as a signal? We were climbing, barely, just, and did get over the earth bank at the end of the runway, I carried on to 300 feet, so the glider should have been OK to land back, and by that time my knees are trembling in weakness and funk. So I pulled the yellow release. And still quivering, came back and landed.
But where was the glider? noplace I could see. Not on the airfield! The instructor of course had taken over when I dumped them, and neither instructor nor student realised that the airbrakes were open, they just thought they were in terrible sinking air.....and not until they were approaching the small field that destiny had selected for them, did they realise....brakes already deployed! So they walked back in through the gliding club gate. And the towrope was still attached to the glider. No damage, no injury.
Of course, I had to write a report of the incident. Managed to write the whole story, just like now, without mentioning that the tug pilot, the instructor, and the student were all women....never would have heard the last of it.
I was getting impatient and irritated. So made my own bed, so to speak.
When we finally got take up slack signal from the wingtip holder, I was not gentle. Bit of a yank, actually. Full power. Lifted off nicely like the cub always does, but rate of climb was NOT VERY GOOD. Possibly because we were no longer taking off directly into wind? T's and P's OK, engine sounded fine, and then, I looked in the rear view mirror.......
The K13 airbrakes had popped full open. I am towing a shed.
Now the BGA in their wisdom recommends at this point, the tuggie having realised the glider airbrakes are open, that you waggle your rudder.........!!@%&*!! No way Jose, my airspeed is below 50 knots, and we are staggering, you think I'm going to waggle my rudder as a signal? We were climbing, barely, just, and did get over the earth bank at the end of the runway, I carried on to 300 feet, so the glider should have been OK to land back, and by that time my knees are trembling in weakness and funk. So I pulled the yellow release. And still quivering, came back and landed.
But where was the glider? noplace I could see. Not on the airfield! The instructor of course had taken over when I dumped them, and neither instructor nor student realised that the airbrakes were open, they just thought they were in terrible sinking air.....and not until they were approaching the small field that destiny had selected for them, did they realise....brakes already deployed! So they walked back in through the gliding club gate. And the towrope was still attached to the glider. No damage, no injury.
Of course, I had to write a report of the incident. Managed to write the whole story, just like now, without mentioning that the tug pilot, the instructor, and the student were all women....never would have heard the last of it.
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cats_five & Caractacus
I see what you mean about Gliding club politics and that is part of my reason for steering clear of gliding.
One incident really summed it up for me a few years back.......... Quite late one Friday night the chief engineer of a gliding club called me, he had been working late to get a Robin tug ready for a comp that the club was running and had disturbed some flying controls that needed a duplicate inspection from another licenced engineer. He asked me if I could go do the inspection on Saturday morning so that the club had all the tugs avalable first thing.
So as the guy had helped me out in the past I showed up as requested first thing on the Saturday, as I walked into the hangar I was greeted by some bloke who in his best Anglo-Saxon told me that the club was private and that I should as he put it efff off.......... No "excuse me this is private" or other such polite requests for a stranger not to bein the clubs hangar, just a stream of abuse.
As you might guess I was half way across the car park before this idiot was told that he had in effect grounded a tug for the weekend and that he needed to catch me and eat a lot of humble pie if the rest of the club was not to find out why they were one tug down.
If this was one isolated incident I would have brushed it off but it is not, I wish I could say more about the latest incident but it might yet end up in the courts so I had better not say anything.
The thing that really gets to me is that what little gliding I have done indicates that it is a really fun sport, I just can't understand why these people have to play politics rather than enjoying the flying?
I have never encountered anything like this in other forms of aviation.
One incident really summed it up for me a few years back.......... Quite late one Friday night the chief engineer of a gliding club called me, he had been working late to get a Robin tug ready for a comp that the club was running and had disturbed some flying controls that needed a duplicate inspection from another licenced engineer. He asked me if I could go do the inspection on Saturday morning so that the club had all the tugs avalable first thing.
So as the guy had helped me out in the past I showed up as requested first thing on the Saturday, as I walked into the hangar I was greeted by some bloke who in his best Anglo-Saxon told me that the club was private and that I should as he put it efff off.......... No "excuse me this is private" or other such polite requests for a stranger not to bein the clubs hangar, just a stream of abuse.
As you might guess I was half way across the car park before this idiot was told that he had in effect grounded a tug for the weekend and that he needed to catch me and eat a lot of humble pie if the rest of the club was not to find out why they were one tug down.
If this was one isolated incident I would have brushed it off but it is not, I wish I could say more about the latest incident but it might yet end up in the courts so I had better not say anything.
The thing that really gets to me is that what little gliding I have done indicates that it is a really fun sport, I just can't understand why these people have to play politics rather than enjoying the flying?
I have never encountered anything like this in other forms of aviation.
I've been an active tow pilot in two different clubs in the states. Have not seen any of the politics described above. Over here it is just fun. Every stranger is treated as a potential new member or as a potential customer for a commercial ride. It is the kind of place I like to bring my kids to.
I was recruited into my first club as a tug pilot with no glider experience. They converted and taught me. It worked out good for everybody.
I have had somebody pop their airbrakes by accident. He was out to do a long x-c and was a bit keyed up. I thought about wagging the rudder, then called him on the radio instead. The orange went away and that improved the climb quite a bit. I had one self-inflicted loss of performance when I forgot to put the carb heat back in. I had an RS-15 behind the super cub and we did not climb great until I figured out my mistake.
I think tugging is the best duty in a club. It is all flying, and it is good proficiency flying but with a mission. Tugging (or towing as we call it here) has kept me in aviation when a lot of my friends have moved on. I plan to get the commercial glider rating this year so I can do ride duty too, but I will always tow. Instructing is in my future, hopefully I can teach my kids.
Our new home page:
Harris Hill Soaring Center
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I was recruited into my first club as a tug pilot with no glider experience. They converted and taught me. It worked out good for everybody.
I have had somebody pop their airbrakes by accident. He was out to do a long x-c and was a bit keyed up. I thought about wagging the rudder, then called him on the radio instead. The orange went away and that improved the climb quite a bit. I had one self-inflicted loss of performance when I forgot to put the carb heat back in. I had an RS-15 behind the super cub and we did not climb great until I figured out my mistake.
I think tugging is the best duty in a club. It is all flying, and it is good proficiency flying but with a mission. Tugging (or towing as we call it here) has kept me in aviation when a lot of my friends have moved on. I plan to get the commercial glider rating this year so I can do ride duty too, but I will always tow. Instructing is in my future, hopefully I can teach my kids.
Our new home page:
Harris Hill Soaring Center
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The gliding clubs which I belonged to all required their tug pilots to have at least Silver C gliding standard. Quite rightly so in my opinion. A non gliding tug pilot tends to give poor value for money, let alone lacking the situational awareness and anticipation of the movments of the non engined aricraft operating from the airfield.
I've done a bit of tugging and suffered quite a few missed heartbeats as a result. Personally, if I'm spending all day on a gliding airfield, I would rather fly the gliders. I left the tugging to those who enjoyed it more and those who were hours building.
I've done a bit of tugging and suffered quite a few missed heartbeats as a result. Personally, if I'm spending all day on a gliding airfield, I would rather fly the gliders. I left the tugging to those who enjoyed it more and those who were hours building.
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Gliding clubs are also usually rather sensitive about a strange face being airside or in the hangers - we have no idea who they are, if they are aware of the dangers, or might be looking to thieve stuff. Of course they might simply be a spotter looking for more G regs but one never knows. Your experience was unfortunate, but I image the chap who was rude had no idea who you were, hadn't been told to expect someone turning up, and was possibly at the end of a hard week at work. He might also have been the most bad-tempered person in the club but the only one that could do that particular job. That's the downside of volunteer organisations - it can be Hobson's choice about who one gets to do the jobs that needs doing.
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A&C, I am truly sorry you have had more than one unfortunate encounter with the less tactful members of any gliding club. We do have our quota of rude or eccentric individuals, who unfortunately sometimes are put in positions of responsibility before we realise that they may not be the best choice...
If they were paid and did a bad job we could always sack them! Asking volunteers to go elsewhere is always awkward at best.
Which goes back to my point in my earlier post.....most power flying clubs are commercial operations.
A&C, actually you have posted three times about the rude treatment you have received at gliding clubs, and suggested that numbers are falling and we are all getting old and dropping off the perch as there is no new blood....
Of course the power clubs teaching youngsters to fly are doing well? how many have gone up the swanee lately? More likely with the recession biting, and avgas prices through the roof, only the wealthy can afford the pleasure of learning to fly. Kids who might attend ATC may also have different priorities.
If they were paid and did a bad job we could always sack them! Asking volunteers to go elsewhere is always awkward at best.
Which goes back to my point in my earlier post.....most power flying clubs are commercial operations.
A&C, actually you have posted three times about the rude treatment you have received at gliding clubs, and suggested that numbers are falling and we are all getting old and dropping off the perch as there is no new blood....
Of course the power clubs teaching youngsters to fly are doing well? how many have gone up the swanee lately? More likely with the recession biting, and avgas prices through the roof, only the wealthy can afford the pleasure of learning to fly. Kids who might attend ATC may also have different priorities.
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only the wealthy can afford the pleasure of learning to fly
Aaaaargh. NOT SO!! Only those who are wealthy and those who are not wealthy but don't smoke, drink, or have any other hobbies can afford to fly. Basically anyone in reasonable employment, and I don't mean 50K a year but national average or even less.
It all depends on your priorities. I get fed up to the back teeth with the 'rich men's toys' attitude, anyone can fly if they give up their three foreign holidays a year and the new car in the drive.
The original question was...
The BGA's document
http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/clu...rotownotes.pdf
may be of interest. I think that it addresses much of the original query.
Am interested in becoming a tug pilot, purely for fun, and the flying experience. Does anyone have any experienes of learning and what it takes to achieve this goal?
I have held a PPL A for 25 years, tailwheel experience and also a few hundred rotary hours - only a couple of glider hours tho...
Thanks.
I have held a PPL A for 25 years, tailwheel experience and also a few hundred rotary hours - only a couple of glider hours tho...
Thanks.
http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/clu...rotownotes.pdf
may be of interest. I think that it addresses much of the original query.
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If you think gliding clubs are riddled with politics then try any branch of the British Sub Aqua Club!
However to anyone who has been made unwelcome by a gliding club member, I'm afraid the gliding world has roughly the same ratio of d***heads as society in general and I apologise on their behalf
However to anyone who has been made unwelcome by a gliding club member, I'm afraid the gliding world has roughly the same ratio of d***heads as society in general and I apologise on their behalf
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I too am sorry about A&C's experiences, but that kind of rudeness is very rare in my experience. The worst thing about my club (Essex) is the risk that the CFI and I break out with a burst of ukulele playing. And we have a special scheme for PPLs who want to try gliding, so it's a mixture of good and bad.
Much more likely is being ignored, because many glider pilots seem shy of speaking to strangers. No idea why, but it's surprisingly common. Just march up to the centre of activity (usually some kind of control caravan) and say that you fly, at which point someone will always recognise a kindred spirit and show you round.
Much more likely is being ignored, because many glider pilots seem shy of speaking to strangers. No idea why, but it's surprisingly common. Just march up to the centre of activity (usually some kind of control caravan) and say that you fly, at which point someone will always recognise a kindred spirit and show you round.
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If you think gliding clubs are riddled with politics then try any branch of the British Sub Aqua Club!
Thread Starter
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Wow - I did not intend open the old can of worms about clubs and their sometimes inane politics. Slightly close to topic, I have been a member of a couple of R/C model flying clubs, and they sometimes have extremely complex political issues. Some committee members seen to think they are god-like and run the clubs as if they owned them, when really all the bog standard member wants to do is go fly their aircraft and have a bit of fun.
I learnt to fly both fixed wing and heli at White Waltham and the club there, in my opinion, is pretty damn good. Great instructors, good aircraft choice, lovely airfield, and a good social scene.
Thanks everyone for the interesting postings.
I learnt to fly both fixed wing and heli at White Waltham and the club there, in my opinion, is pretty damn good. Great instructors, good aircraft choice, lovely airfield, and a good social scene.
Thanks everyone for the interesting postings.