concerning mistakes
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: dublin, ireland
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think the OP has a flaw in his original premise - that pilots have an overriding interest in correcting their own mistakes. I think we have a greater-than-normal interest in correcting OTHERS' mistakes. We pore over accident reports and speculate as to what the incident pilot did wrong, say "There but for the grace of god", etc. But, when faced with direct criticism of our own actions, such as someone approaching you on the ramp after a flight, I think we take the feedback no better or worse than any other population - all based on the personalities involved in the conversation.
so none of this applies here
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: 23, Railway Cuttings, East Cheam
Age: 68
Posts: 3,115
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quote:
Now, if only I could get the weather people to present their reports and forecasts with whole words!
That's a good one - I can see the justification when it all had to be sent by teletype or morse code, but in the days of the internet it seems an anachronism to me... unless anybody with more experience can point out a reason why things should stay as they are?
Now, if only I could get the weather people to present their reports and forecasts with whole words!
That's a good one - I can see the justification when it all had to be sent by teletype or morse code, but in the days of the internet it seems an anachronism to me... unless anybody with more experience can point out a reason why things should stay as they are?
For ABGD: makes us seem clever because we can decode it. Same reason I'm sure that musos have to learn bits of French, German and Italian to decipher performance markings.
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Home Counties
Age: 60
Posts: 116
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pilots come in all shapes and abilities. Ive been flying since 1983 but always been a hobby as I had another career although I am an instructor an examiner and have flown at some very good operations. There are many bold ego types in flying which makes it tedious some times. Thats opposite to me as I am quite quiet and not bold at all.
But successsful in another industry,which allows me to work 4 days a week and fly on fridays instructing and examining.
I have flown with and operated with ex RAF fast jet pilots test pilots and they have been the most unassuming and pleasant guys to work with. I have flown with many businessman(I am one too) some good some bad but always has amazed me how they tell me how successful they have been in business and then tell me how much money they spend on flying 100K for plane 15K IR 20K a year to run aircraft 3K on fuel for IFR flights of which maybe 4 or 5 trips a year furthest destinations they go could be reached by Ryanair or Easyjet for £100.00- that doesnt seem great business sense to me personally if you cost it out by the hour its pure madness in pusuit of a hobby, maybe sensible if you use ac for business but I tried that and rarely works specially in winter. You probably could charter a citation for what it cost and a 5 star hotel at the other end. But thats aviation I guess sense seems to go out of the window. Recently friend of mine successful businessman MBA etc threw all his money into flying operation because his ego new no boundaries and it folded leaving him bankrupt but in his other walks of life he would never had been so mad.
Dont get me wrong Ive thrown money at this game but I find you can go to far simple pleasures for me now Im spending Xmas helping student get through his nav exam because hes having trouble. Of course I could get caught out again as Im only young 47 but been flying for 30 years now so I have seen many financial disasters but also understand when aviation and a large salary or bank balance come into contact madness is usually not far behind. That includes commercial students, some have had great success though others not so lucky and parents still paying off mortgage. You have to be really careful.
(I do include me in the madness but I usually just think of my Wifes presence behind my shoulder when I make aviation decisions and her face after the moneys spent).
I always fancied helicopters but thats another story. And maybe discussed when my pension tax free cash comes my way.
But successsful in another industry,which allows me to work 4 days a week and fly on fridays instructing and examining.
I have flown with and operated with ex RAF fast jet pilots test pilots and they have been the most unassuming and pleasant guys to work with. I have flown with many businessman(I am one too) some good some bad but always has amazed me how they tell me how successful they have been in business and then tell me how much money they spend on flying 100K for plane 15K IR 20K a year to run aircraft 3K on fuel for IFR flights of which maybe 4 or 5 trips a year furthest destinations they go could be reached by Ryanair or Easyjet for £100.00- that doesnt seem great business sense to me personally if you cost it out by the hour its pure madness in pusuit of a hobby, maybe sensible if you use ac for business but I tried that and rarely works specially in winter. You probably could charter a citation for what it cost and a 5 star hotel at the other end. But thats aviation I guess sense seems to go out of the window. Recently friend of mine successful businessman MBA etc threw all his money into flying operation because his ego new no boundaries and it folded leaving him bankrupt but in his other walks of life he would never had been so mad.
Dont get me wrong Ive thrown money at this game but I find you can go to far simple pleasures for me now Im spending Xmas helping student get through his nav exam because hes having trouble. Of course I could get caught out again as Im only young 47 but been flying for 30 years now so I have seen many financial disasters but also understand when aviation and a large salary or bank balance come into contact madness is usually not far behind. That includes commercial students, some have had great success though others not so lucky and parents still paying off mortgage. You have to be really careful.
(I do include me in the madness but I usually just think of my Wifes presence behind my shoulder when I make aviation decisions and her face after the moneys spent).
I always fancied helicopters but thats another story. And maybe discussed when my pension tax free cash comes my way.
Moderator
Good post Aware, It neatly sums up a number of observations I have made about pilot types. I have noticed from time to time, that the pilots with the most interesting and varied experience, can seem the most quiet about it. The aviation work I do, sometime pairs me flying with pilots of awesome backgrounds, but to meet them, you'd never think it.
On the other hand, hang around a weekend fly in, and there will inevitably be a piot flying something flashy, very proud he made it there from a hundred miles away, and just past a hundred hours flying time. Accomplishments to be proud of, for that stage in that pilot's career, but in context, that pilot must remind themselves that the now emerging self confidence is luring them into trouble, if they are not increasingly careful
I can say with a weird sense of embarrassment and accomplishment, that I have more hours doing things wrong in planes than many pilots will fly in total time. How lucky am I that I never bent a plane, and often I learned not to do that again! Further to that, I have been able to pass along the results of my bad experience when checking out other pilots.
The more I fly, the more I see how I could fly better. In particular when another pilot, often less experienced, demonstrates a better way. I still make mistakes, so I try to assure that those which are going to happen, like it or not, have the smallest possible affect on safety, while I get the important stuff right.
On the other hand, hang around a weekend fly in, and there will inevitably be a piot flying something flashy, very proud he made it there from a hundred miles away, and just past a hundred hours flying time. Accomplishments to be proud of, for that stage in that pilot's career, but in context, that pilot must remind themselves that the now emerging self confidence is luring them into trouble, if they are not increasingly careful
I can say with a weird sense of embarrassment and accomplishment, that I have more hours doing things wrong in planes than many pilots will fly in total time. How lucky am I that I never bent a plane, and often I learned not to do that again! Further to that, I have been able to pass along the results of my bad experience when checking out other pilots.
The more I fly, the more I see how I could fly better. In particular when another pilot, often less experienced, demonstrates a better way. I still make mistakes, so I try to assure that those which are going to happen, like it or not, have the smallest possible affect on safety, while I get the important stuff right.
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 2,460
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have flown with many businessman(I am one too) some good some bad but always has amazed me how they tell me how successful they have been in business and then tell me how much money they spend on flying 100K for plane 15K IR 20K a year to run aircraft 3K on fuel for IFR flights of which maybe 4 or 5 trips a year furthest destinations they go could be reached by Ryanair or Easyjet for £100.00- that doesnt seem great business sense to me personally
The fact that you could do it via an airline for much less is not relevant. You could apply that reasoning to any other means travel and the reduction to absurdity would lead to hitchiking everywhere.
Some people (a small minority, probably) do like to have interesting lives, and they realise that this is worth paying for. As I often say here, a simple way to guarantee that you will die very rich is to have a steady job, avoid relationships and social activities, keep your trousers zipped up, and invest every penny in financial instruments
Recently friend of mine successful businessman MBA etc threw all his money into flying operation because his ego new no boundaries and it folded leaving him bankrupt but in his other walks of life would never had been so mad.
Secondly, trying to make money in aviation (I assume you meant GA) is quite difficult. One reason is that, for a training or charter operation, the barriers to entry are very low. The biggest one is throwing a pile of money at the CAA for the paperwork, but anybody can do that. This means the business is packed with amateurs who work for next to nothing, which means the margins are poor. And if you want to get into making parts (e.g. avionics) the barriers to entry are very high, partly due to certification requirements but mainly due to massive distribution channel loyalty to the big names which makes entry next to impossible because aircraft owners cannot buy (mail order) and install the stuff themselves.
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: scotland
Age: 42
Posts: 58
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Excellent post Peter and also some of the other perspectives also.
I myself currently fall into the low hour PPL category, currently doing IMC training with a likelyhood of progressing commercially
An as sad as it may sound, I'm actually quite facinated by the whole area of incident investigation, TEM and understanding the human element etc.
My take on it is this, with direct refernce to some of the comments/questions raised.
Are commercial pilots/PPL's special
In some ways yes of course we are
but........
I dont think pilots should necessarily be considered a special case when it comes to decision making skills and the ability to be self critical etc, but a "good" pilot does need to posess and to build upon these core skills if he/she wants to maximise their chances of not becoming a statistic.
How? By recoginising your own risk profile in relation to your own experience and currency, and by addressing weaknesses through "training out" some of these risk factors. Treat every flight as a lesson :>) glean knowlege and experience from suitably qualified and experienced sources.
and above all, dont get cocky or assume that because it didnt go wrong when you did "a" this time that it wont go horribly wrong next time when you carry out the same action again perhaps in slightly different conditions. This is basically the "swiss cheese" idea that someone else mentioned above.
Profiling people/making assumptions based on wealth/earnings etc
To be honest I think this idea is far too oversimplified and I certainly would not like to rely on it as a marker of someones capabilities and/or competence as a pilot or even of their general attitude to learning etc.
There are all sorts of people throughout the entire socio-economic spectrum.
In the end being "safe" is about putting as many barriers in place as possiple between you and the numerous different hazards, be that training or equipment.
In summary I do think that attitude is a key factor, being receptive, not overconfident yet decisive and recognising your limitations and strive gaps.This is of course a bit idealistic and I do recognise that for many, cost constraints may limit training and or general currency.
Happy Flighting
I myself currently fall into the low hour PPL category, currently doing IMC training with a likelyhood of progressing commercially
An as sad as it may sound
, I'm actually quite facinated by the whole area of incident investigation, TEM and understanding the human element etc.My take on it is this, with direct refernce to some of the comments/questions raised.
Are commercial pilots/PPL's special
In some ways yes of course we are
but........I dont think pilots should necessarily be considered a special case when it comes to decision making skills and the ability to be self critical etc, but a "good" pilot does need to posess and to build upon these core skills if he/she wants to maximise their chances of not becoming a statistic.
How? By recoginising your own risk profile in relation to your own experience and currency, and by addressing weaknesses through "training out" some of these risk factors. Treat every flight as a lesson :>) glean knowlege and experience from suitably qualified and experienced sources.
and above all, dont get cocky or assume that because it didnt go wrong when you did "a" this time that it wont go horribly wrong next time when you carry out the same action again perhaps in slightly different conditions. This is basically the "swiss cheese" idea that someone else mentioned above.
Profiling people/making assumptions based on wealth/earnings etc
To be honest I think this idea is far too oversimplified and I certainly would not like to rely on it as a marker of someones capabilities and/or competence as a pilot or even of their general attitude to learning etc.
There are all sorts of people throughout the entire socio-economic spectrum.
In the end being "safe" is about putting as many barriers in place as possiple between you and the numerous different hazards, be that training or equipment.
In summary I do think that attitude is a key factor, being receptive, not overconfident yet decisive and recognising your limitations and strive gaps.This is of course a bit idealistic and I do recognise that for many, cost constraints may limit training and or general currency.
Happy Flighting
Last edited by MarkR1981; 11th Dec 2011 at 13:41.
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: scotland
Age: 42
Posts: 58
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Some people (a small minority, probably) do like to have interesting lives, and they realise that this is worth paying for. As I often say here, a simple way to guarantee that you will die very rich is to have a steady job, avoid relationships and social activities, keep your trousers zipped up, and invest every penny in financial instruments 
Completely agree. And why die rich anyhow?
The more I fly, the more I see how I could fly better. In particular when another pilot, often less experienced, demonstrates a better way. I still make mistakes, so I try to assure that those which are going to happen, like it or not, have the smallest possible affect on safety, while I get the important stuff right.
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Home Counties
Age: 60
Posts: 116
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Agree with some of P337 responses not having fun dying rich etc life is short (And I do like the view out of the window Ive been looking at it for 30 years)I have always had other considerations other than my flying family - career - then flying gave myself the challenge of running aviation career along side non aviation job and not letting family suffer financially so spending big money on this just doesnt sit well with me family are damned expensive so maybe may throw more money at this game in later life but so many costs before hand kids uni etc
However if I had an ex wife who wanted more money etc I might consider throwing money at this good way to lose it ex student of mine called me today to tell me he paid 70K for a Lance 2005 spent 50K on it avionics new engine just been valued at under 50K broker told him ac values gone down 40% in 3 years if that is the case thats a sure way of removing ones wealth but if youve got an ex wife its a result and probably quite satisfying.
However if I had an ex wife who wanted more money etc I might consider throwing money at this good way to lose it ex student of mine called me today to tell me he paid 70K for a Lance 2005 spent 50K on it avionics new engine just been valued at under 50K broker told him ac values gone down 40% in 3 years if that is the case thats a sure way of removing ones wealth but if youve got an ex wife its a result and probably quite satisfying.
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: In a hole somewhere
Age: 46
Posts: 378
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
well... im not rich and never will be.
i had the dream of becoming a pilot from a very young age and in the crap hole of a place i was brought up i was only laughed at by careers advisors and family and friends.
with my determination i tried my hardest to save until that one day.......
riding along the country lanes on my motorbike some di*khead of a car driver pulled staright into my path when i was doing slightly above the limit (65 in a 60) WHAM straight into him... broken back, arm ribs, hand, wrists fingers severed nerves in my c-spine... the list goes on.
to top it off i lost my home too.
my compensation paid for my flying (completed in 45hrs 10 minutes) and as a result of my injuries i can only work part time so when i fly i treasure it. im lucky if i fly once a month let alone twice! (costs me on checkrides)
so no, not every person with a pilots licence is minted, although would you believe me if i tell you people STILL look at me with jealousy?!!
sick world people.... but hey, be happy you only have one life!
i had the dream of becoming a pilot from a very young age and in the crap hole of a place i was brought up i was only laughed at by careers advisors and family and friends.
with my determination i tried my hardest to save until that one day.......
riding along the country lanes on my motorbike some di*khead of a car driver pulled staright into my path when i was doing slightly above the limit (65 in a 60) WHAM straight into him... broken back, arm ribs, hand, wrists fingers severed nerves in my c-spine... the list goes on.
to top it off i lost my home too.
my compensation paid for my flying (completed in 45hrs 10 minutes) and as a result of my injuries i can only work part time so when i fly i treasure it. im lucky if i fly once a month let alone twice! (costs me on checkrides)
so no, not every person with a pilots licence is minted, although would you believe me if i tell you people STILL look at me with jealousy?!!
sick world people.... but hey, be happy you only have one life!
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: England & Scotland
Age: 63
Posts: 1,413
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am a PPL(H) and fall into the 'successful businessman' category.
I agree with much that has been said above, the spare mental capacity, systematic approach, analyse and learn from your mistakes and those of others, always continue to train, and know your limits / fly within them or stay on the ground. I would like to add one more; how you react to the overload.
I see three reactions to overload - freeze like a rabbit in headlights and do nothing, focus one one thing only, or analyse what is important to prioritise actions.
If you are a rabbit - don't fly or ride a motorcycle. Take a bus, or if you must drive select a car based on it's ability to protect you in a head-on collision. I have a cousin like this. He has many road accidents behind him, not one his fault (insurance wise) but almost all he could have avoided if he had not frozen when things started to go wrong. He is 'successful' but his business does not punish that behaviour, he has time to recover and make decisions.
Many of us (more men than women?) fall into the 'Focus' category. It can lead to great business success, but it will lead you into danger in an aircraft. Problems with your radio? Focus on that, lose attitude and air speed, the ground will rush to meet you before you have finished twiddling with the radio controls.
To survive you have to be in the third category. Unfortunately, this behaviour is largely learned - there are a few who do this naturally (more women than men?). There is no such thing as multiple-tasking; we concentrate on things sequentially and we need to learn to keep moving (mentally). In overload we can fall back into 'Focus' as is demonstrated by so many air crash reports, even those involving professional pilots.
Practice means more familiarity with the aircraft and with your craft of flying. That means more spare capacity for increased workload, and therefore less overload situations. But how often do you get the opportunity to practice in overload? Professional pilots have the simulator and regularly get pushed until they do crash, so they get regular practice of dealing with overload. When training for my PPL in an unstabilised helicopter I did regularly experience overload and I found that invaluable in not just reinforcing Aviate, Navigate, Communicate but also within Aviate to focus (helicopter) on wings level, attitude / speed (they are connected), height, heading. Now I am in sole command of a turbine light helicopter, no stabilisation, with the most valuable cargo imaginable (my family). I only fly if I have controlled all the risks that I can control and the net result is within my capability. If the net result is even close to my limit, I pay for an instructor to come along - so my experience improves and my limit extends - or I don't go.
Finally, I set aside 4 weekends each year to pay for further instruction so that I can stay on top of what I do know (engine off to the ground, lost tail rotor, failed hydraulics, power loss below hover capability, etc) and to have the opportunity for the instructor to overload me so I can practice working through the overload. I always learn and finish the session feeling slightly small.
John
I agree with much that has been said above, the spare mental capacity, systematic approach, analyse and learn from your mistakes and those of others, always continue to train, and know your limits / fly within them or stay on the ground. I would like to add one more; how you react to the overload.
I see three reactions to overload - freeze like a rabbit in headlights and do nothing, focus one one thing only, or analyse what is important to prioritise actions.
If you are a rabbit - don't fly or ride a motorcycle. Take a bus, or if you must drive select a car based on it's ability to protect you in a head-on collision. I have a cousin like this. He has many road accidents behind him, not one his fault (insurance wise) but almost all he could have avoided if he had not frozen when things started to go wrong. He is 'successful' but his business does not punish that behaviour, he has time to recover and make decisions.
Many of us (more men than women?) fall into the 'Focus' category. It can lead to great business success, but it will lead you into danger in an aircraft. Problems with your radio? Focus on that, lose attitude and air speed, the ground will rush to meet you before you have finished twiddling with the radio controls.
To survive you have to be in the third category. Unfortunately, this behaviour is largely learned - there are a few who do this naturally (more women than men?). There is no such thing as multiple-tasking; we concentrate on things sequentially and we need to learn to keep moving (mentally). In overload we can fall back into 'Focus' as is demonstrated by so many air crash reports, even those involving professional pilots.
Practice means more familiarity with the aircraft and with your craft of flying. That means more spare capacity for increased workload, and therefore less overload situations. But how often do you get the opportunity to practice in overload? Professional pilots have the simulator and regularly get pushed until they do crash, so they get regular practice of dealing with overload. When training for my PPL in an unstabilised helicopter I did regularly experience overload and I found that invaluable in not just reinforcing Aviate, Navigate, Communicate but also within Aviate to focus (helicopter) on wings level, attitude / speed (they are connected), height, heading. Now I am in sole command of a turbine light helicopter, no stabilisation, with the most valuable cargo imaginable (my family). I only fly if I have controlled all the risks that I can control and the net result is within my capability. If the net result is even close to my limit, I pay for an instructor to come along - so my experience improves and my limit extends - or I don't go.
Finally, I set aside 4 weekends each year to pay for further instruction so that I can stay on top of what I do know (engine off to the ground, lost tail rotor, failed hydraulics, power loss below hover capability, etc) and to have the opportunity for the instructor to overload me so I can practice working through the overload. I always learn and finish the session feeling slightly small.
John
Last edited by John R81; 17th Dec 2011 at 12:50.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
John
Good points especially regarding overload and spare capacity which varies from one person to another.
The point of overload is often the crash point.
I can remember an instructor who flew a PA28 long distance in awful conditions IMC.
When he landed he claimed that if someone had asked his name he would have looked at them in a blanked daze.
We all have different brains! some are more visual with an ability to take in loads of visual information quickly others are recollective.
I always think of different computers! They all have memory and Graphic cards but some are designed for gaming with the need to process "visuals" fast.
As with the computer overload the Graphics card and the screen freezes.
Pilots with fast Graphics cards and loads of onboard memory naturally can handle as it happens information better and are usually better at picking up their game to suit the situation.
Those with slower Graphics cards can still do a good job in most circumstances but rely more on training and storing information in the main memory banks.
Anyway thats how I see it.
Pace
Good points especially regarding overload and spare capacity which varies from one person to another.
The point of overload is often the crash point.
I can remember an instructor who flew a PA28 long distance in awful conditions IMC.
When he landed he claimed that if someone had asked his name he would have looked at them in a blanked daze.
We all have different brains! some are more visual with an ability to take in loads of visual information quickly others are recollective.
I always think of different computers! They all have memory and Graphic cards but some are designed for gaming with the need to process "visuals" fast.
As with the computer overload the Graphics card and the screen freezes.
Pilots with fast Graphics cards and loads of onboard memory naturally can handle as it happens information better and are usually better at picking up their game to suit the situation.
Those with slower Graphics cards can still do a good job in most circumstances but rely more on training and storing information in the main memory banks.
Anyway thats how I see it.
Pace
