A fraternity...
Hovering AND talking
Joined: Feb 2003
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From: Propping up bars in the Lands of D H Lawrence and Bishop Bonner
A woman can fly and talk at the same time. No man can do that.
Cheers
Whirls
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From: Ontario, Canada
Of course they can - there are plenty of male helicopter pilots.
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From: Ontario, Canada
It's required to train to land after a loss of tail rotor control, while flying helicopters. I think that's in case someone pulls your leg while you're flying one, and they won't stop....
Joined: May 2001
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From: UK
The assumption that you know what my strengths, and ipso facto, my weaknesses are based on my sex, that's what.
You assumed earlier that I certainly was sexist when I pointed out that we are different but you suggested based on my comment you would rest your case. However my post was not sexist.
Most assumptions we make are based on experience. The things we do as a pilot are a very good examples of tempering assumptions with experience and a little academic know how.
Avoid imitations
Joined: Nov 2000
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From: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
I have no desire to get into any political treatise as my comments were solely directed at (thankfully a minority) a group of male pilots who still think women should be chained to the kitchen sink.
How on earth could they reach the lawnmower if that were so?
Whirls, stop all this silliness and just pop along and make us all a cup of tea, there's a love.
Hovering AND talking
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From: Propping up bars in the Lands of D H Lawrence and Bishop Bonner
For example, Whirly you assume most men are sexist,
Originally Posted by Fuji Abound
But women arent equal
ShyT, ha ha very funny .... yeah, when you've finished putting up the shelves and putting some oil in my car.
Cheers
Whirls
Avoid imitations
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From: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
yeah, when you've finished putting up the shelves and putting some oil in my car.
The Original Whirly
Joined: Feb 1999
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From: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
That's 'cause nobody can hover and write, your hands and feet are full of flight controls!
My old friend Whirlygig is quite correct in most of what she says...and for those of you who don't know me, since I haven't been here for months, we're NOT the same person. So, I'm sorry, but there are TWO female helicopter pilots in the world who have encountered discrimination! Maybe no others; how would I know. And, in my case, not that often, not from everyone, and after a lot of years in aviation, it doesn't bother me....that much. But that doesn't make it right. And it also doesn't mean you should be questioning whether it's ever happened to Whirls, and demanding that she accept it. Why the hell should she? IO540, I thought better of you, I really did. And don't ask me to say exactly which of five pages of posts I'm responding to - I just read the lot all at once, and I'm replying to my general impressions. If you don't like that - well, I'm quite used to not being liked; I've been on PPRuNe a long time.
However, I'm a bit busy these days, so now I'll just go away again and leave you to your discussion, but hey, I did enjoy it, and it's nice to see so many familiar faces still around.
Bye for now,
Whirly - the original one, and don't forget that!
Joined: Jan 2009
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From: Oxford, UK
Well, girls and boys, I have just realised that here is an irresistable thread for me to set you all to rights, and share with you a few entertaining and relative moments!
First of all, whirlybird, whirlygig, and fernytickles, there are still major difficulties that account for a shortage of female aspriants in aviation. To whit, as pointed out by 10540, women don't have the MONEY and they don't have the TIME! If a woman fancies a career of any sort, it all too often implies that starting a family must be deferred. Or altogether, forgotten, like by my Aunt Laura who was a single lady, a physician, and vice president of the American Medical Association in 1900!
I had 4 children while still young and beautiful, and looked after them and my spouse, who decided to swap me for a younger model when he was 48. I decided to do something reckless, had my ears pierced, and went for a ride in a glider.
Now after l,200 hours of power, PPL, IR and seaplane rating , being Tugmaster, Instructor at a gliding club, a triple diamond holder with 1,800 hours in gliders and representing Great Britain in the Women's European Championships in the Soviet Union -( that dates me, doesn't it?) I cannot deny that gender as well as family have kept me from a lucrative career in aviation. You don't get rich being a flying instructor, even in the USA.
Men do not have to choose between having children or becoming pilots, they can do both because they have the money and the time. But there is a downside. The working partner is expected to fund the raising of children. And women live longer.
* * * *
I shall leave you with a little story. Flying a Supercub 150 towplane, pulling up a Kl3 glider, I realised the truly terrible performance was due to the fact that the K13 airbrakes were open. As speed decayed, we staggered to 300' and rather than signal by wagging the rudder (as prescribed) I chickened out and dumped the glider.
The gliding instructor and student safely landed the K13 in a handy field.
When writing the report, I managed to avoid mentioning gender throughout. Would never have heard the end of it, because Tuggie, Instructor, and Student Pilot were all women.
Now, alas, due to age and decay, I am reduced to flying only with a safety pilot.....
and yakking on PPruNe, like all the other old forts....
We may not all be included in the term Fraternity, or Band of Brothers, but we are certainly all Kindred Spirits. And the best of us do look after each other.
First of all, whirlybird, whirlygig, and fernytickles, there are still major difficulties that account for a shortage of female aspriants in aviation. To whit, as pointed out by 10540, women don't have the MONEY and they don't have the TIME! If a woman fancies a career of any sort, it all too often implies that starting a family must be deferred. Or altogether, forgotten, like by my Aunt Laura who was a single lady, a physician, and vice president of the American Medical Association in 1900!
I had 4 children while still young and beautiful, and looked after them and my spouse, who decided to swap me for a younger model when he was 48. I decided to do something reckless, had my ears pierced, and went for a ride in a glider.
Now after l,200 hours of power, PPL, IR and seaplane rating , being Tugmaster, Instructor at a gliding club, a triple diamond holder with 1,800 hours in gliders and representing Great Britain in the Women's European Championships in the Soviet Union -( that dates me, doesn't it?) I cannot deny that gender as well as family have kept me from a lucrative career in aviation. You don't get rich being a flying instructor, even in the USA.
Men do not have to choose between having children or becoming pilots, they can do both because they have the money and the time. But there is a downside. The working partner is expected to fund the raising of children. And women live longer.
* * * *
I shall leave you with a little story. Flying a Supercub 150 towplane, pulling up a Kl3 glider, I realised the truly terrible performance was due to the fact that the K13 airbrakes were open. As speed decayed, we staggered to 300' and rather than signal by wagging the rudder (as prescribed) I chickened out and dumped the glider.
The gliding instructor and student safely landed the K13 in a handy field.
When writing the report, I managed to avoid mentioning gender throughout. Would never have heard the end of it, because Tuggie, Instructor, and Student Pilot were all women.
Now, alas, due to age and decay, I am reduced to flying only with a safety pilot.....
and yakking on PPruNe, like all the other old forts....
We may not all be included in the term Fraternity, or Band of Brothers, but we are certainly all Kindred Spirits. And the best of us do look after each other.
Joined: Jul 2010
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From: Ansião (PT)
we are certainly all Kindred Spirits. And the best of us do look after each other.
-) sexism - as already discussed exhaustively
-) big ego's, most frequently found in new instructors
-) pilots wanting to show off how clever/great/able they are
-) ....?
Joined: Jun 2003
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From: EuroGA.org
I cannot deny that gender as well as family have kept me from a lucrative career in aviation.
I see a fair number of women airline pilots. I am sure there would have been straight discrimination decades ago, and widespread too, but that is then and now we are in 2011.
Aviation is not a lucrative career. Sure you can make 50k or even 100k after some years but that is just a well paid steady job which can be used to pay for a house in the country, a horse, a 4x4, maybe 2 kids in private schooling, but what have you got to show for all that in the end? Sod all. Just a load of stress, and writing cheques all the time. Been there, done that. And I see it all the time where I live (Sussex). You haven't missed anything, and IMHO had a much more interesting life than as an airline pilot. You did well to get rid of your husband nice and early, too.
Men do not have to choose between having children or becoming pilots, they can do both because they have the money and the time
Below that level of success, men face a sharp money v. time tradeoff.
Also great many male pilots give up flying once the "sprogs" start dropping. The wife implements a clampdown on "dangerous activities incompatible with a family man", and the bank balance takes care of the rest.
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From: Ontario, Canada
-) big ego's, most frequently found in new instructors
-) pilots wanting to show off how clever/great/able they are
-) pilots wanting to show off how clever/great/able they are
I recognize the reality that new pilots have to gain experience somewhere, but I'm not sure that teaching newer pilots is the best place for it. As has been previously said here, it creates a heritage of inexperience. But it's a necessary system, and my complaining about it won't help anyone.
In keeping with my original theme here, I do like to draw in those new instructors, as I would any pilot, when I have the opportunity, but I have bumped into a few egos!
As for the showing off, that takes care of itself over time (if you survive). I have learned a lot of what not to do - too much of that, first hand. Hopefully, our sharing it here, over time, will help other pilots avoid those mistakes themselves. The trick is to see the swiss cheese holes lining up in time to stop it, before you fall through.
But, am I drifting from my own drift on this thread? I've kinda lost track! Another few pages, and we should have every problem in aviation worked out!
Thread Starter
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From: Ontario, Canada
The wife implements a clampdown on "dangerous activities incompatible with a family man",
Joined: May 2001
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From: UK
Aequalis, that is where equal comes from and means identical or the same as, just as we use the term in maths. As i thought we had agreed girls and boys are not equal, but if you prefer, yes we are different.
Whirls it is good to see you posting; the debate is really interesting, and i hope your concerns stay in the minority.
For me i would rather treasure our differences, rather than dwell on our similarities, for i think in some respects we are more similiar than we give credit.
Equality promotes equal rights; it requires that where there are no differences they are not artficially created, but if it fails to recognise our inequality then its just as devisive as discrimination.
Whirls it is good to see you posting; the debate is really interesting, and i hope your concerns stay in the minority.
For me i would rather treasure our differences, rather than dwell on our similarities, for i think in some respects we are more similiar than we give credit.
Equality promotes equal rights; it requires that where there are no differences they are not artficially created, but if it fails to recognise our inequality then its just as devisive as discrimination.
Pompey till I die
Joined: Nov 2006
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From: Guildford
I love this thread!
It totally sums up the pilot zoo that is pprune. Monsieur Joe 90 Dar starts off with a great post about how we should remember that we're all part of a big club.
7 pages in we're all squabbling, about sexism ?
I took some chums flying the other day and we discussed the "culture" of ppls. It's a funny old thing. To fly you need some dosh and so are generally quite successful in your life. Successful people are usually used to getting their own way, all of the time. So you have a whole bunch of people who get their own way most of the time, together in a group where, by definition, not everybody can get their own way. It's not suprising pprune is 40% flame wars!
The wonderful counter balance that if you mess up you pay the ultimate price just stokes those fires a little stronger.
Great post Dar, great flame war everyone. Never let it be said PPrune can't find something to argue about! Even when the opening line is "we all decided to join the same club" it's not suprising somebody responds with "No I didn't!"
7 pages in we're all squabbling, about sexism ?
I took some chums flying the other day and we discussed the "culture" of ppls. It's a funny old thing. To fly you need some dosh and so are generally quite successful in your life. Successful people are usually used to getting their own way, all of the time. So you have a whole bunch of people who get their own way most of the time, together in a group where, by definition, not everybody can get their own way. It's not suprising pprune is 40% flame wars!
The wonderful counter balance that if you mess up you pay the ultimate price just stokes those fires a little stronger.
Great post Dar, great flame war everyone. Never let it be said PPrune can't find something to argue about! Even when the opening line is "we all decided to join the same club" it's not suprising somebody responds with "No I didn't!"
Joined: Jun 2003
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From: EuroGA.org
I think you will find the "flame wars" in this case were kicked off by 1 or 2 people.
It's a pity.
But yes, getting pilots to work together is like herding cats. It's quite a problem for volunteer organisations in GA. Most of the volunteers have big egos. This is how US AOPA is so successful: they have normal full-time paid execs at the top.
It's a pity.
But yes, getting pilots to work together is like herding cats. It's quite a problem for volunteer organisations in GA. Most of the volunteers have big egos. This is how US AOPA is so successful: they have normal full-time paid execs at the top.
Joined: Jan 2008
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From: London UK
For the record, 'aviator' is a gender-neutral term.
Wikipedia has a 'List of Aviators', which has both kinds of aviators in it.
In my Oxford Dictionary, an aviator is 'a pilot'. An aviatrix is 'a female pilot'.
The online Merriam-Webster has aviatrix as 'a woman who is an aviator', coined around 1910.
So if you want to go out on a limb and convey the sense of 'Actual women! Actually flying!', go ahead and use 'aviatrix' and 'aviatrices'. My guess is that the newspapers invented the words for exactly those headlines.
It is foolish to think you can determnine the meaning of modern English words by reference to what Greeks and Romans were supposedly saying thousands of years ago. A television is not a telescope. Phugoid oscillations have nothing to do with law enforcement.
And surely all those thousands of years ago, aviation was for birds, not people. I did a year of history at school, so I must be an expert!
Wikipedia has a 'List of Aviators', which has both kinds of aviators in it.
In my Oxford Dictionary, an aviator is 'a pilot'. An aviatrix is 'a female pilot'.
The online Merriam-Webster has aviatrix as 'a woman who is an aviator', coined around 1910.
So if you want to go out on a limb and convey the sense of 'Actual women! Actually flying!', go ahead and use 'aviatrix' and 'aviatrices'. My guess is that the newspapers invented the words for exactly those headlines.
It is foolish to think you can determnine the meaning of modern English words by reference to what Greeks and Romans were supposedly saying thousands of years ago. A television is not a telescope. Phugoid oscillations have nothing to do with law enforcement.
And surely all those thousands of years ago, aviation was for birds, not people. I did a year of history at school, so I must be an expert!