A fraternity...
The Original Whirly
Joined: Feb 1999
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 4,327
Likes: 2
From: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
Fuji, he wasn't taking the piss. Banter is fine with me. But he was 100% serious. Despite my having been joining in a typical aviation conversation in which it should have been obvious that I was a pilot, he really didn't think it possible that I was one. Everyone else saw it that way too. In fact, some of the guys told me afterwards that they were very embarrassed on my behalf, and felt like they should apologise and make it clear all men weren't like that, but I told them not to worry. the whole male half of the human race doesn't need to apologise for one idiot - and as far as I'm concerned he's an idiot, however many flying exams he managed to pass.
What did I say? To be honest, I was so surprised that I didn't say anything. I was left speechless, which doesn't happen often; what was there to say? That was when he picked up on...something, and added the bit about his wife not flying. Then someone changed the subject, and that was that.
But the point I've been trying to make is that this incident is by no means unique. Similar things have happened to me many times, and to other women pilots I know too. I could give you more examples. I realise it surprises you. But seriously, that is the way things are for women in the world of aviation, even in the 21st century.
What did I say? To be honest, I was so surprised that I didn't say anything. I was left speechless, which doesn't happen often; what was there to say? That was when he picked up on...something, and added the bit about his wife not flying. Then someone changed the subject, and that was that.
But the point I've been trying to make is that this incident is by no means unique. Similar things have happened to me many times, and to other women pilots I know too. I could give you more examples. I realise it surprises you. But seriously, that is the way things are for women in the world of aviation, even in the 21st century.
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,807
Likes: 10
From: Ansião (PT)
It's quite staggering to realise that 50% of the population is below average intelligence.
Thread Starter
Fleet Manager
Joined: Aug 2006
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 7,089
Likes: 2,952
From: Ontario, Canada
It's quite staggering to realise that 50% of the population is below average intelligence.
Oh my god! I might have just triggered a multi page discussion about "average" vs "mean" vs "median", and some latin terms I don't know.....
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 232
Likes: 0
From: London
I'll tell you something pilotdar. Some days it feel like a full 90+% of the population is below average intelligence! As for ryanair, doh!!! Is all I can say, were there even seats in the plane? :-) welcome back
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
From: EuroGA.org
Uh... IO.... isn't 50% of the population below any average for that population?
Oh my god! I might have just triggered a multi page discussion about "average" vs "mean" vs "median", and some latin terms I don't know.....
Oh my god! I might have just triggered a multi page discussion about "average" vs "mean" vs "median", and some latin terms I don't know.....
SCANDAL: 50% of schools are below average
when of course 50% will be, because that is how "average" is defined.
and as far as I'm concerned he's an idiot, however many flying exams he managed to pass.
Thread Starter
Fleet Manager
Joined: Aug 2006
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 7,089
Likes: 2,952
From: Ontario, Canada
I was again reminded of the delightful group that is PPRuNe, when I had the pleaseure of meeting three more Prooners in Europe last week, in addition to the great pleasure I had meeting yet another last fall in France. What a fun bunch!
The bash is a super idea, and I wish I could have attended. But, I could not sway my client's requirements to allow me to be near the UK that week, and indeed will be in South America, so my attendance will be hopeless!
I hope that all the Prooners who can make it, have a blast, and really appreciate what a worthwhile group we are, face to face, as well as in text!
The bash is a super idea, and I wish I could have attended. But, I could not sway my client's requirements to allow me to be near the UK that week, and indeed will be in South America, so my attendance will be hopeless!
I hope that all the Prooners who can make it, have a blast, and really appreciate what a worthwhile group we are, face to face, as well as in text!
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 280
Likes: 0
From: Lincolnshire
Wow, what a thread!! Firstly, PilotDar, what a great original post as the others have said, and I must say, within my short experience of aviation from the flying side, apart from a few idiotic PPruners, I have found everyone fantastic, welcoming and being super helpful to me as a stude and willing to pass on their greater knowledge.....be they male or female.
I have spent all my career in a male dominated environment...I have had many old F**ts (male and female) patronise me. One example of such in my professional life was (and this from a female) "I suppose this is all gobledegook to you" when I was lecturing her group on the history of the Battle of Britain...I could list many such incidents and even "oh, you're a girl" or "can I speak to the Curator please", "the new Curators a very young girl, she doesn't know anything" (as an aside I was 29 at the time of this comment!)
Therefore sexism in a male dominated world does not phase me anymore, i'm used to it. The RAF are great, no problems with serving chaps, and I for one am pleased when a man wishes to behave like a gent and pull my chair out for me at dinner or open the door and let me go through it first. I never used to like this, I always used to flare, but now i realise that well, it is rather nice.
My current work colleagues are VERY un-PC, but I don't mind, I give as good as I get and its all good banter. i think maybe sometimes females take themselves and this PC stuff all too seriously. Yes, we should not return to pre-suffragette era, oh no! But I do think we have gone too far the other way sometimes.
As to my flying training. I of course have not yet been on the sharp end of aviation long enough to add much to the debate of sexism in the aviation community. however, what I can say is that I am the only female member of our club and I have received nothing but respect from 98% of the boys. Is this due to my eagerness to muck in with everything ? Maybe, but I love it and I WANT to be as involved as possible, and am considered as just like any other student pilot learning their sport. There are three members who are pains. One of whom is not a pilot but a social member. Until I had words with our CFI on the way this chap was treating me, he treated me like a god, as though i was something truly amazing as he had never met a female pilot before. he took photos at every opportunity even when i was flying solo and taxying back, he got (and still gets) in the way and won't be told. In fact this got to the creepy stage... Also, when planning our annual Fly-In last year, one of the members wives asked if I would bake some cakes....I asked whether she had also asked the single male members...and stated that I had not baked for about 20 years!! She got the message
But from my point of view (and maybe other female pilots) I want to be treated as a pilot (ok, then, Student Pilot before anyone corrects me on the fact that I don't have that brown booklet yet!
) When I am at the club I leave my gender behind and get on with the flying.
Whilst dinosaurs exist, we are never going to get rid of sexism in aviation or anywhere else for that matter. but we can at least alleviate it by female pilots showing that we are equal in our skills to our male colleagues and perhaps even more importantly to the male community who are not aircrew. I believe it was Maggie Thatcher who said that to get on in a male dominated world, a female has to be twice as good as her male counterparts. Something which I strive to be in my professional life.
I leave you with a comment written by a female ATA Lanc pilot...she had just delivered a Lanc to the Squadron and when she stepped out of the aircraft, the bemused aircrew said "Did YOU just fly that?!" Lovely!
I have spent all my career in a male dominated environment...I have had many old F**ts (male and female) patronise me. One example of such in my professional life was (and this from a female) "I suppose this is all gobledegook to you" when I was lecturing her group on the history of the Battle of Britain...I could list many such incidents and even "oh, you're a girl" or "can I speak to the Curator please", "the new Curators a very young girl, she doesn't know anything" (as an aside I was 29 at the time of this comment!)
Therefore sexism in a male dominated world does not phase me anymore, i'm used to it. The RAF are great, no problems with serving chaps, and I for one am pleased when a man wishes to behave like a gent and pull my chair out for me at dinner or open the door and let me go through it first. I never used to like this, I always used to flare, but now i realise that well, it is rather nice.
My current work colleagues are VERY un-PC, but I don't mind, I give as good as I get and its all good banter. i think maybe sometimes females take themselves and this PC stuff all too seriously. Yes, we should not return to pre-suffragette era, oh no! But I do think we have gone too far the other way sometimes.
As to my flying training. I of course have not yet been on the sharp end of aviation long enough to add much to the debate of sexism in the aviation community. however, what I can say is that I am the only female member of our club and I have received nothing but respect from 98% of the boys. Is this due to my eagerness to muck in with everything ? Maybe, but I love it and I WANT to be as involved as possible, and am considered as just like any other student pilot learning their sport. There are three members who are pains. One of whom is not a pilot but a social member. Until I had words with our CFI on the way this chap was treating me, he treated me like a god, as though i was something truly amazing as he had never met a female pilot before. he took photos at every opportunity even when i was flying solo and taxying back, he got (and still gets) in the way and won't be told. In fact this got to the creepy stage... Also, when planning our annual Fly-In last year, one of the members wives asked if I would bake some cakes....I asked whether she had also asked the single male members...and stated that I had not baked for about 20 years!! She got the message
But from my point of view (and maybe other female pilots) I want to be treated as a pilot (ok, then, Student Pilot before anyone corrects me on the fact that I don't have that brown booklet yet!
) When I am at the club I leave my gender behind and get on with the flying.Whilst dinosaurs exist, we are never going to get rid of sexism in aviation or anywhere else for that matter. but we can at least alleviate it by female pilots showing that we are equal in our skills to our male colleagues and perhaps even more importantly to the male community who are not aircrew. I believe it was Maggie Thatcher who said that to get on in a male dominated world, a female has to be twice as good as her male counterparts. Something which I strive to be in my professional life.
I leave you with a comment written by a female ATA Lanc pilot...she had just delivered a Lanc to the Squadron and when she stepped out of the aircraft, the bemused aircrew said "Did YOU just fly that?!" Lovely!
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 158
Likes: 0
From: UK
Those people that know this username will know that the bird bit is intentional. I've been in aviation since 1999 (after a previous 2 year jaunt with the ATC). I've managed to achieve a fair amount - again, those that know me know exactly how much - and I've not experienced much in the way of overt prejudice. I'm sure there have been more subtle 'ism but I choose not to be bothered by these things. I'm just not bothered who people think flew the aeroplane that just landed (unless it was a guff landing, in which case it was definitely the other person)
What I have learned is that the people worth knowing are the people who will treat you on a meritocratic basis, rather than those who will judge on the basis of appearance.
Aviation is a world in which, amongst those who do it, there is no reasonable disadvantage on the basis of gender. There are few pursuits where this is the case, and it is true that there are far fewer women actually interested in it than men. But those that are, are as good as men are in the same relative proportions. IMO, that is, I don't have any statistically significant evidence.
I do appreciate gentlemanly behaviour in the right circumstance. It's respectful and thoughtful and I am flattered. But when I have any sort of overalls on, be it engineering, flying or otherwise, my rules are that men can fart, swear, and scratch their balls as much as they like and I will not be offended. After I've crawled down the tail of an aeroplane to clean and grease an elevator idler people see that I do stand by those rules and I'll muck in just the same.
I love aviation, and I've met and fly with some wonderful people. I enjoy challenging perceptions, so on the rare occasion of inappropriate behaviour, I see it as a chance to prove them wrong, not as a personal sleight. And that's really just an opportunity to do whatever I'm doing, to the best of my ability, and who doesn't enjoy that?
Btw not that long ago, we had a period of time at my home airfield where the tower was "manned" by a woman, the only circuit traffic was an aeroplane flown by me with a female commercial pilot as pax, with the police heli passing through also piloted by a women. The entire ATZ was female for about 15 minutes. Fact is, people fly!
What I have learned is that the people worth knowing are the people who will treat you on a meritocratic basis, rather than those who will judge on the basis of appearance.
Aviation is a world in which, amongst those who do it, there is no reasonable disadvantage on the basis of gender. There are few pursuits where this is the case, and it is true that there are far fewer women actually interested in it than men. But those that are, are as good as men are in the same relative proportions. IMO, that is, I don't have any statistically significant evidence.
I do appreciate gentlemanly behaviour in the right circumstance. It's respectful and thoughtful and I am flattered. But when I have any sort of overalls on, be it engineering, flying or otherwise, my rules are that men can fart, swear, and scratch their balls as much as they like and I will not be offended. After I've crawled down the tail of an aeroplane to clean and grease an elevator idler people see that I do stand by those rules and I'll muck in just the same.
I love aviation, and I've met and fly with some wonderful people. I enjoy challenging perceptions, so on the rare occasion of inappropriate behaviour, I see it as a chance to prove them wrong, not as a personal sleight. And that's really just an opportunity to do whatever I'm doing, to the best of my ability, and who doesn't enjoy that?
Btw not that long ago, we had a period of time at my home airfield where the tower was "manned" by a woman, the only circuit traffic was an aeroplane flown by me with a female commercial pilot as pax, with the police heli passing through also piloted by a women. The entire ATZ was female for about 15 minutes. Fact is, people fly!
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 302
Likes: 0
From: UK
It's interesting how some people have such a strong reaction to perceived inequalities.
The Police is an example, and female Police officers in particular. In some Forces you can tell if an officer is male or female by the number on their shoulder. Some women say this is discriminatory and wrong. Yet there are other women who demand to be referred to as WPC Jones, as opposed to PC Jones. What is all that about? On the one hand, it's wrong to identify a female officer as female, and on the other hand, it's wrong to not identify a female officer as such.
You just can't win.
The Police is an example, and female Police officers in particular. In some Forces you can tell if an officer is male or female by the number on their shoulder. Some women say this is discriminatory and wrong. Yet there are other women who demand to be referred to as WPC Jones, as opposed to PC Jones. What is all that about? On the one hand, it's wrong to identify a female officer as female, and on the other hand, it's wrong to not identify a female officer as such.
You just can't win.
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,042
Likes: 0
From: Oxford
Oddly enough I have just come back from an annual asthma assessment and the nurse admitted she'd always wanted to be a pilot, but at her girls' grammar school she was ridiculed and never seriously pursued it. Apparently her ambition was to fly a BAe 146. I said that it was never too late, even though she would possibly not get in anything bigger than a PA28 (she's a very... experienced nurse so a bit late for a change of career!) Sad that these things went on. Being a nurse is just as technical, responsible, &c. as being a pilot.
Tim
Tim
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 2,460
Likes: 0
I've made a good number of great friends through flying. It's a very good community.
As for getting ridiculed, this has always gone on and aviation in particular suffers from a load of patronising old farts; most of them being instructors who want to keep you in your place so you keep hiring their beaten up wreckage on which the last "licensed engineer" practically emptied the labelling machine just making up the INOP stickers. These people will feed you any amount of bull to stop you from getting out on your own and god forbid buying your own decent plane so you can go places. And I am a bloke - or was when I last looked walking up the hill a short time ago.
It's a pity this thread got hijacked early on by the feminist crowd.
As for getting ridiculed, this has always gone on and aviation in particular suffers from a load of patronising old farts; most of them being instructors who want to keep you in your place so you keep hiring their beaten up wreckage on which the last "licensed engineer" practically emptied the labelling machine just making up the INOP stickers. These people will feed you any amount of bull to stop you from getting out on your own and god forbid buying your own decent plane so you can go places. And I am a bloke - or was when I last looked walking up the hill a short time ago.
It's a pity this thread got hijacked early on by the feminist crowd.
Thread Starter
Fleet Manager
Joined: Aug 2006
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 7,089
Likes: 2,952
From: Ontario, Canada
"I suppose this is all gobledegook to you"
30 years ago I happened upon a store in Exeter which specialized in used Meccano. I am a serious Meccano enthusiast. I very foolishly asked the female behind the counter when the owner of the shop would retuen, I had some questions. She declared that she was the owner, very promptly and precisely answered all of my questions, and put me in the place I belonged. I bought quite a bit of Meccano from her.
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 280
Likes: 0
From: Lincolnshire
Slight change...u/s instruments
You just can't win.
Such is the way of human nature. I had a brilliant joke through about female pilots which a male (non-pilot) friend of mine sent - made me giggle, especially after having read this thread last night.
last "licensed engineer" practically emptied the labelling machine just making up the INOP stickers.
Peter, I was interested by your comment above. Forgive my ignorance but methinks that if ANY instruments are u/s in an aircraft, then the whole aircraft is u/s and not flown?! In our club this is certainly the case. The only thing we will fly with (as I do frequently) is a DI which throughout a lengthy navex requires realigning with the compass. My QFI explained that this is because the instrument is just old, but it is a fault that we know about and can live with. I would be interested to hear what the experience is of those experienced ladies and gentlemen 
ppruners. Thanks
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 643
Likes: 0
From: Glasgow
I've flown with all of the radio nav instruments U/S and a dodgy com radio. Not an issue when doing PPL training when I'm being taught to navigate using dead reckoning (and the second com worked fine). Eventually all the radio nav instruments were removed...
It does depend on the instrument. Sounds like you should start a new topic on this though rather than hi-jacking this one GQ!
It does depend on the instrument. Sounds like you should start a new topic on this though rather than hi-jacking this one GQ!