A fraternity...

[Katamarino]

This whole discussion seems ridiculous to me. Admittedly I'm one of the more junior members of the aviation community, at the age of 27, but I have never seen even a hint of sexism in any of my 500+ hours around airfields and in airplanes. I'm an engineer, and I can say the same about my workplace too; the younger generation seem entirely blind to peoples sex in the professional environment, and at least in my office, the female engineers seem to get preferential, rather than negative, treatment from the older generation.

Indeed, in aviation I have only ever met one person who was immediately rude, arrogant, and presumptive; and that was a female instructor at our club. Oddly enough, I haven't judged all women pilots based on her.

[Monocock]

Well said that man.

What has it come to when a female pilot is asked by someone if her husband minds her flying and the immediate assumption is one of sexism. Many people ask me if my wife minds if I fly and I have never taken that as a sexist comment about my gender.....

[Jan Olieslagers]

in my office, the female engineers seem to get preferential, rather than negative, treatment

which is on the long term just as negative - but I do have observed this same phenomenon at other places.

[24Carrot]

Sounds like banking. The way women get treated has everything to do with lawsuit avoidance, and nothing to do with gender equality.

[fernytickles]

IO540

Most of the volunteers have big egos

Now I'm going to go off on yet another tangent. I really have to take issue with that comment as it is a very sweeping and inaccurate generalisation.

Of the over 4000 volunteers who run AirVenture, I think you'd fine only a tiny percentage of them have big egos. Obviously it is high time you made the visit to Oshkosh and joined in the fun here - then you could see for yourself what a fantastic community spirit there is and how much fun it is to volunteer with a great bunch of people.

[mary meagher]

Give it a rest, girls.

I like what Pompey Paul said earlier. You need dosh to fly, so need to have been successful to acquire the dosh, put all these middle aged egos together in a committee, and there you have a flying club! ....and regular backstabbing, gossip, conspiracy, toys thrown out of the pram. walking off in a huff....and that's just the boys!

I remember the scene in the film "The Russians are coming, the Russians are coming!"
where all the men are fighting each other as to who will command the "Glocester Island" volunteers - all armed with a variety of hoes, rakes, shotguns, deer rifles, against a Russian Sub in the harbour armed with a very large piece of ordinance....

And in despair, the Deputy Sheriff tears his hair and says

"Why can't everybody just get along?"

(because we actually enjoy slagging each other off!)

[IO540]

Of the over 4000 volunteers who run AirVenture, I think you'd fine only a tiny percentage of them have big egos.

That's not the UK though, is it?

Also, who is at the very top?

[Whirlybird]

I had some thoughts, and some sleep, and came back....

Firstly, that word "fraternity". I think you'd all agree that the main purpose of writing is communication. Well, when I saw the title of this thread I just assumed it was another thread along the lines of a few others we've had in the past like how to get the wife interested in flying. Frternity means brotherhood. It's male-orientated by definition. It has those connotations. So I'm sorry, Pilot DAR, and I love the sentiments, but as a writer I've got to tell you that Community would have been far better.

Secondly, as to the sentiments expressed in that first post. Well, I'd love it if they were all true, and I've met some lovely people in aviation. But I've also met some downright sods too. Just like the rest of the world in fact. Maybe take off your rose-coloured spectacles. On second thoughts, don't - until someone else does it for you. Why be as old and cynical as I am.

Next, Whirls' comment that sexism seems to exist mainly in fixed-wing aviation. Well, Whirls my friend, if that's your experience, who am I to argue with it? But I wonder if it isn't that it's commonest among the general public, less so in private aviation, and almost non-existent in commercial aviation. Which could explain why I get mistaken for the tea lady when doing helicopter trial lessons, ignored and then apologised to when flying to a fly-in with a male passenger, but treated with the utmost respect in the commercial flying world. And when I went to interview Kirsty Moore, first female Red Arrows pilot, for an article, and sat in on one of their briefings, I was impressed by the fact that she was treated no differently from anyone else. I shouldn't have to be impressed, but I was, because it's still so rare. The forces are super-professional - and non-sexist. So are younger men, which could explain my GA versus commercial flying experience...but I don't know. But anyway, actually all any of us women want is to be treated 'normally' - not better, not worse, not the same, not differently, just normally. That's what I originally liked about the BWPA - that's how it was; I was just a pilot, not a woman pilot, not great, not awful, not a minority, not anything to write home about, but just someone who could merge into the background. It's the reason I'm still a member. It would be nice if they didn't need to exist, but well...they seem to provide something for nearly 400 women. Got to be a reason. Don't tell me we just like paying subs for the fun of it.

Finally, Mary Meagher, things have changed. Women no longer have to choose between career and family. The reasons for the minority of women in aviation are more somplicated and subtle than that. Let me leave you with a conversation I had just a few years ago with a 16 year old pilot, an Air Cadets high flyer, who soloed in minimum hours and for whom a great future in aviation was predicted...

Me: Why are there so few girls in the air cadets.
Her: Well, it's a boy thing isn't it?
Me: But why?
Her (shrugging): Just is.

Well, now I know...

[vee-tail-1]

When I first flew in the RAF the married guys got more pay!
When off duty on the Cornish beaches my single mates would join me in surfing the big waves. But one by one they vanished as girl friends became wives. Later in BOAC the first topic of conversation once climbing with autopilot engaged was... "Are you on your first or second divorce? How did you hide your money? How come you escaped and are still single?... Watch out for the 'A' stewardess she's a man eater!"
Later on the Classic 747 all the stewards were gay, and all the stewardesses were feminists or married, or both. But by then I had indeed married and was in the process of divorce... which cost me dear both in money and mental health. Not surprising then that my opinion of women was of a dangerous alien species, that can be functional or decorative but never both. But then the first women pilots appeared on the 747 and my opinion of women had to change. For the first time ever I had breakfast in N York with a female pilot and we talked aviation nonstop without the slightest patronization or hidden agenda from her. Amazingly for me here was a person with the true ability and passion for flying that I had associated only with men. Not only that but she was attractive and fun to be with. This pilot and others like her have pretty well demolished my earlier misogyny, but I am a bit worried about the modern trend for young female airline pilots to show a hint of cleavage within their uniform.
There should be a notice on the flight deck door: "Please leave your emotional & sexual baggage outside"

[fernytickles]

vee-tail-1

"Please leave your emotional & sexual baggage outside"

That goes for the oversized watches & too tight trousers the women have had to endure for all these years too.....

IO-540

Also, who is at the very top?

I'm not quite sure what you mean by that.

[ShyTorque]

Whirly:

Me: Why are there so few girls in the air cadets.
Her: Well, it's a boy thing isn't it?
Me: But why?
Her (shrugging): Just is.
Well, now I know...

This has also changed. The ATC Squadron that my daughter attends has a growing number of female cadets. The senior cadet is female, too.

[IO540]

I am a bit worried about the modern trend for young female airline pilots to show a hint of cleavage within their uniform.
There should be a notice on the flight deck door: "Please leave your emotional & sexual baggage outside"

Assuming they are doing it innocently (which I of course doubt) they are prob99 copying the High Street, where waists and boobs hanging out is de rigueur nowadays, regarldess of how much material is exposed

I like the rest of your early-years portrait, starting with the surfing scene

Reminded me of Big Wednesday. (there's a fabulous pic for the gurls here ).

I'm not quite sure what you mean by that

Only saying that if you have 4000 volunteers, you are not going to have a volunteer at the top running the whole thing. It will be a full time paid executive, who is recruited, and fired if necessary. Otherwise you will have mayhem.

That goes for the oversized watches & too tight trousers the women have had to endure for all these years too

Big watches are entirely optional

[youngskywalker]

Can men join the BWPA? And if not, why not?

Might start up the BMPA!

[pulse1]

Article in latest Pilot magazine talks about the "helpful aviation community". Perhaps, if the OP had used that phrase instead of "fraternity", this thread could have covered that much more interesting issue as was probably intended.

[Whirlybird]

Yes, men can join the BWPA, and some do.
(Looks like I'm back on PPPuNe forums...sigh)

[Saab Dastard]

Welcome back Whirlybird, long time no see!

SD

[kevmusic]

Good to see you back, Whirly!

[mary meagher]

Hello Whirlybird, nice to make your acquaintance! Don't you just love the way these threads get sidetracked....and get more interesting as well!

I'm happy to agree that times have changed for women in the western world. Since Lillienthal and Orville and Wilbur cast off the surly bonds we have been recognised as equal partners in aviation, if we want to be (think of Harriet Quimby), or if we are badly needed - having the skills needed to deliver Lancasters etc from the factory to the forward bases in WWII.

But possibly the key to the scarcity of our sex in this peculiar pursuit does lie in your conversation with the talented air cadet. Why would a girl want to grow up to be a bus driver, after all? The men who end up in the pointy end seem to make a terrible hash of their family relationships, and many end up with a rather jaundiced view of women.

We have quite an active junior section in our gliding club,about 20 boys and girls from 13 to l7. One girl is quite serious, solo at 16, works very very hard. Three boys have soloed at 16. But the differences I observe in the teenage students are the same that appear in adult beginners: females suffer from underconfidence, males from overconfidence. Result of conditioning since birth?

[Final 3 Greens]

I'm just waiting for someone to quote John Grey (Men are from Mars...) on this horribly drifted thread, which started off with a bloke being thoughtful and saying thank you and then was hijacked by some people with an axe to grind.

The attitudes of some of the female posters here are unbelievable, I work in a female oriented environment, where there is no gender advantage and am used to working in equal partnerships.

I have to say that if confronted by some of the attitudes here, I would find it totally tiresome and would not accept such whinging - I know the women I work with would not take it, either.

As for conditioning, Mary do you mind me asking (respectfully) what knowledge you have in the area of psychology? Confidence is not built by conditioning (in the traditional sense), as the purpose is to train someone to react in a certain way to a certain stimulus. Of course, confidence in the new ability may develop as a consequence.

Having said that, personality and motivation equally have a part to play, as does culture.

I would say that younger men typically (but not always) display more bravado and younger women typically (but not always) tend to be a little more cautious, but that is a different set of labels to confident/under confident.

The women I work with are highly confident professionals, built on years of professional development.

[Whirlybird]

As for conditioning, Mary do you mind me asking (respectfully) what knowledge you have in the area of psychology? Confidence is not built by conditioning (in the traditional sense), as the purpose is to train someone to react in a certain way to a certain stimulus. Of course, confidence in the new ability may develop as a consequence.

Having said that, personality and motivation equally have a part to play, as does culture.

I would say that younger men typically (but not always) display more bravado and younger women typically (but not always) tend to be a little more cautious, but that is a different set of labels to confident/under confident.

Final 3 Greens, I would say, respectfully, that you're splitting hairs. Mary was using the term conditioning as it is generally used in everyday conversation. That seemed obvious to me, and by the way, I do happen to have a degree in psychology. My personal experience as an instructor is the same as Mary's - men think they'll be able to fly helicopters easily even when they're pretty hopeless; women think they can't do it even when they obviously can. And my personal observations throughout a life which, while not as long as Mary's, has been going on a while, is that little boys tend to get told they're really, really good at things, while little girls tend to be told they can't do things because they're not big enough/strong enough/ clever enough/whatever. You don't need a degree in anything to deduce that the latter might possibly lead to the former in later life. And yes, I'm making a generalisation, and there are exceptions. And yes, I do think that things are changing in the modern world. And finally, I haven't noticed any whinging on this thread, merely some discussion and a little thread drift. Why do you have a problem with that? And why should I take any notice of it if you do?