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Tiger Moth Crash

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Tiger Moth Crash

Old 17th May 2011, 23:49
  #61 (permalink)  
 
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Not a flyer.

Just live very close to Compton. It may sound stupid to you guys but this loss feels like a loss of one of ours. That is all, you either get it or don't.
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Old 18th May 2011, 00:03
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Post deleted as it had been modified by the Mods

Last edited by Vino Collapso; 18th May 2011 at 20:47.
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Old 18th May 2011, 09:08
  #63 (permalink)  
 
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Let's start again....... Everything is forgotten and forgiven.....

Some are here to learn and others are here to give advice or both. We are ALL saddened by the loss of life, injuries and loss of a beautiful plane, but this forum is not intended to be an in-memoriam register....

No one intends to crash, so I am sure the pilot was intending a diligent flight within the frame of his own perceived limitations as well as within the frame of what he understood to be his plane's limitations.

I am a pilot and a foreigner to the UK and I would like to know what may have caused this accident, and I do not want to wait for the investigation, this is why I come on this forum.

The debris field seems from the video and photo's to be so small that very little horizontal speed was there at the moment of impact combined with some substantial vertical speed.

Is there someone close to the airplane and/or occupants who can shed light on the background of either the plane or the pilot.

Are there TM pilots who are willing to shed some light on the possibly applicable idiosyncrasies of the TM which could have contributed to this crash?
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Old 18th May 2011, 09:23
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I am a pilot and a foreigner to the UK and I would like to know what may have caused this accident, and I do not want to wait for the investigation, this is why I come on this forum.
I can assure you, it is very unlikely you will find what factors caused this accident from here, prior to the AAIB report. 90% of the posts are idiotic / misinfomed and people just using someone else's misfortune as a platform to broadcast their opinions.

If you genuinely want to "learn" then study the monthly AAIB (and other) bulletins for trends / specifics to your type of flying.

If there is something urgent that comes out of the AAIB investigation prior to the report, it will be disseminated.

If you really think that PPRuNe debates on accidents really enhance Flt Safety please provide an example - there are plenty of threads where a report was later published. It always amazes me how difficult it is to relate the report to the **** that was posted here

There can be value on debate on flying in general clearly removing the specifics of an accident not yet reported on (as we did above).

NoD
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Old 18th May 2011, 09:55
  #65 (permalink)  
 
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May I refer those looking to stifle debate and conjecture on this accident to posts 43,45 and 46.
I've said it before and I'll say it again:
Not discussing safety means we forego the opportunity to learn from others' experiences.

If you don't want to read other's posts regarding this thread then stop reading it. Nobody is forcing you.
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Old 18th May 2011, 12:15
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May I refer those looking to stifle debate
Not sure anybody is looking to "stifle" debate, well, not intelligent debate

and conjecture
Conjecture covers a mutitude of sins, and in many cases is, IMHO inappropriate. As per the Mods'
Disappointingly, some on this forum are displaying gross insensitvity and a lack of decency. [moderator note - the posts referred to have been deleted]
so there have been inappropriate posts.

If you want PPRuNe "policy" look no further than the bottom of each page
As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, or sciolists*, to elicit certain reactions.
It is fact that posts on this forum are in the press minutes later as "informed comment".

So my lines of thought would be:
  1. Do not unnecessarily "speculate".
  2. Caveat comments e.g. as above
    and having no regard for the unfortunate accident
    I'm not referring to this specific accident here
  3. Bear in mind what you say may be in the press and seen by the relatives shortly thereafter. Decide if you really need to say what you are saying? And do you need to say it now? (The press factor will go away after a day or 2).
As Stiknruda says
I'd ask you to have a good look at what you are typing and ask yourselves, "Does this really add any value?"
And NB re
This is PPRuNe - "Professional Pilots Rumour Network" - and it is to be expected that it will do exactly what it says on the tin.
yes - it is a "rumour" network, but also "Professional Pilots", and that is how it will be perceived

Bottom line to me is
If you don't want to read other's posts regarding this thread then stop reading it. Nobody is forcing you.
if only that were true... Unfortunately posting on here does have consequences and thus responsibilities by posters.

NoD
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Old 18th May 2011, 12:41
  #67 (permalink)  
 
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Unfortunately posting on here does have consequences and thus responsibilities by posters.
Indeed it does which is why, some time ago, when someone known to a lot of people crashed, we were all pretty certain of the cause/reasons but restricted our posts to neutral comments. We also knew that family members might well have been reading this. The speculation was rife, some of it accurate, some not. Sadly we were proved to be correct in our conclusions which we had based on knowledge of the person concerned. These threads are always a good reminder that things can and will go wrong and that we all need to learn from what has happened and never stop learning.
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Old 18th May 2011, 12:55
  #68 (permalink)  
 
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Dead man named

The dead man has been named as Orlando Rogers:

Tiger Moth crash victim was former Royal Marine Orlando Rogers (From Bournemouth Echo)
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Old 18th May 2011, 13:07
  #69 (permalink)  
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Conjecture covers a mutitude of sins, and in many cases is, IMHO inappropriate. As per the Mods'
Quote:
Disappointingly, some on this forum are displaying gross insensitvity and a lack of decency. [moderator note - the posts referred to have been deleted]
so there have been inappropriate posts.
Nigel, "conjecture" certainly does not equate to "inappropriate".

The deleted posts were not conjecture, but were definitely inappropriate.

SD
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Old 18th May 2011, 16:20
  #70 (permalink)  
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It's sad that someone crashed. My empathy as appropriate....

However, that fact that someone crashed, and that event was the catalyst for a discussion about the characteristics of a particular type of aircraft, or the elements of decision making for a safe flight, does not necessarily make that discussion in isolation, worthy of criticism.

I agree that there can be a fine line of getting into "arm chair investigation" of the particular event, which I do not support. But, arm chair discussion about aircraft, and piloting in general, or by type, is what this forum is here for.

I do my darndest when I fly to conduct the flight so that there is as little chance as possible that all of you are talking about my accident one day. One element of this, is gleaning other's wise thoughts. If those thoughts pop up coincident to a crash, well, the crash was just the catalyst.

Several years ago, a helicopter I had previously test flown was crashed with four fatalities. I spoke with the operations manager the next day, and offered symapthy. He told me the cause right away. It was a absolutely a human factors situation. The following day, all of their helicopters, and several other aircraft with which I am associated were the subject of an operational change to prevent a reoccurance. Further to this, I was given immediate permission to discuss the known cause, and release photos I had, simply in the interest of disseminating safety information without delay, and while it was fresh in people's minds. This all occurred while I was being slagged on the Rotorheads forum for "thinking I had some special information", and while the TSB was still beginning their investigation. Though it is probably out, I have never seen the report - 'don't need to, I know what it would say. A small part of the wreck of that helicopter sits in front of me now, so I never forget....

Yes, we have to respect sensativities, and toward that end must avoid a personal attack on a pilot at a difficult time, but human factors remain a prime cause of accidents (I'm not saying this one - I have no idea). We need to recognize that, and do what we can to maximize a culture of safe aviation.

Perhaps most pilots reading here will not fly a Moth, but if one pilot remembers one wisdom here, applicable to a Moth, or similar type, and that wisdom becomes a part of a safey culture for that pilot, and is then passed on, safety happened, and that justifies such posts here in my mind...
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Old 19th May 2011, 13:26
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Thank you pilot DAR.

I wonder how many pilots (after having been lost in a piloting accident) here would object to their demise being discussed here in detail and at length, irrespective if they had made a human error or if the cause of their crash was a different one.

I would suspect most would have no objection to this. I certainly would not, and you can keep a record of this post if ever you need the argument.

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Old 19th May 2011, 16:03
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NoD

There are many cases of PP helping with flight safety as a result of a discussion regarding an accident. I gained a lot for the discussion following the 2007 fatal collision near Abbots Bromley. This thread inspired me to change my operating procedures and has undoubtedly reduced my chances of having a mid air. Other threads have rammed home the importance of “don’t stall” if you have engine failure, again following several engine failure accidents, which were debated, on this forum in some detail.

If you look up the case of the modified micro which crashed on an instructional flight (G-STYX) and killed two people. The forums disagreed so strongly with the AAIB that an alternative report was produced and eventually accepted buy the coroner, although the AAIB has still not formally apologised for its incompetence on that occasion.

G-STYX

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Old 18th Aug 2014, 23:44
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Seems the pilot has pleaded not guilty to manslaughter and there will be a trial next year...

Witchampton biplane crash: Pilot denies manslaughter - BBC News
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Old 19th Aug 2014, 08:50
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From AAIB Bulletin June 2012: DH82A Tiger Moth G-AOIL 2006-12.pdf

OC619
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Old 2nd Mar 2015, 19:14
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So now the details unfold?

BBC News - Witchampton fatal biplane crash: Pilot 'attempted loop'
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Old 2nd Mar 2015, 21:35
  #76 (permalink)  
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There's a criminal trial in progress. Are you sure your contribution will help justice be served?

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Old 3rd Mar 2015, 00:22
  #77 (permalink)  
 
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Back then, the Moth was "old", now they're virtually flying pieces of history - do we need to loop them at this stage in their vintage?
Why not? They're designed to do them.

If they are maintained and monitored to appropriate standards and the pilots who aerobat them are trained to a suitable level, there is no reason why they should not.

By way of example, there was a recent Emergency Airworthiness Directive issued regarding wing tie rods which prohibited aerobatics until the necessary inspections were carried out. Following satisfactory inspections, aerobatics could be resumed.

A sensible and logical approach and the Moths are far from the only aircraft to have been subject to Emergency ADs over the years - some of them being much more modern types. I regularly fly another type which was subject of a modification requirement and reduced G limitations as a result of an airworthiness directive. If the Moths needed more restrictive permanent limitations, I have absolutely no doubt the authorities would have insisted upon them.
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Old 3rd Mar 2015, 10:24
  #78 (permalink)  
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The discussion on this topic is welcomed. However, it is possible that this is not the right time. There will be a right time for discussion to continue, and, be it later today, or end of a trial, I, or another PPRuNe mod, will return here to state that.

I won't lock this thread, as PPRuNe would like it to continue, but would posters please hold their thoughts briefly...

Thanks, Pilot DAR
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Old 3rd Mar 2015, 13:37
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Pause please....

After some discussion today, the decision has been made that posts which relate to this accident should not be made during the period of legal proceedings. It is PPRuNe's hope that an interesting discussion may resume when legal issues are settled.

In the mean time, the thread will be left unlocked, to encourage future participation. If a poster has been informed that legal proceedings are complete, would they please PM myself or Saab Dastard, and one of us will confirm that the time is right to continue the thread, and post a "go!" on the thread.

Thanks for your understanding, freedom of speech is important, but a person's rights exceed that importance, in this context.

Pilot DAR
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Old 12th May 2015, 16:24
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Tiger Moth Pilot Cleared after Fatal Accident

Following a 3-4 week trial, a Tiger Moth pilot has been cleared of manslaughter and endangering an aircraft (not to mention the first trial which had to be abandoned)

Tiger Moth pilot Scott Hoyle not guilty of manslaughter after fatal crash (From Bournemouth Echo)

The details of the trial have not been reported but I imagine the pilot put up a spirited defence (a total of 24 witnesses called and lots of legal submissions).

I wondered if any Ppruners might be able to provide more information or comment.

I hope that this result discourages the CPS from pursuing any other pilots who might find themselves in this unfortunate position. I hate to think what this trial cost.
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