Olympic Airpsace Restrictions
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bose-x,
I struggle to see what wriggle room you have found in the wording:
"Flight is prohibited...except by...squawk[ing] a discrete transponder code."
Would you care to enlighten the rest of us?
I struggle to see what wriggle room you have found in the wording:
"Flight is prohibited...except by...squawk[ing] a discrete transponder code."
Would you care to enlighten the rest of us?
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A and C,
I thought efforts to mount a Judicial Review of the airspace were stalling because of lack of interest or commitment to support it financially from potentially affected companies?
I thought I read from one of the instigators that only individuals seemed willing to pledge funds.
I am sure that others will add more but this is enough to kill flying clubs in this time of economic troubles when most of the income happens in the summer months but I know of one airfield that estimates the loss of £0.5M business over the restricted airspace period.
I thought I read from one of the instigators that only individuals seemed willing to pledge funds.
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Yes, that's about it.
Maybe they have plans to shift their business to outlying airfields.
Somebody is going to be very busy...
But pledging money for a legal action is a difficult thing because one doesn't know how much will be needed.
Maybe they have plans to shift their business to outlying airfields.
Somebody is going to be very busy...
But pledging money for a legal action is a difficult thing because one doesn't know how much will be needed.
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Where does it say flight is prohibited unless you sqwuak? It says flight is prohibited unless you abide by the regulations. However I am trying to understand how this relates to the possibility of operation without a transponder.
Not quite sure why you are trying to make me the enemy here. I am trying to ask some logical questions and discuss the situation. Shouting and abusing me won't change the situation. At the end of the day it matters not a jot to me, if I need to go through that area I will follow the regulation or I will go over the top IFR.
I will leave the rest of you to read blindly into the regulation and moan about it on forums.
I do understand that NATS/CAA are asking people to submit and indication of the financial implications of the restrictions. Perhaps worth submitting something around the costs of relocating elsewhere for the period and the cost of having to fly around the outside of the zone.
[email protected] if you are so inclined........
Not quite sure why you are trying to make me the enemy here. I am trying to ask some logical questions and discuss the situation. Shouting and abusing me won't change the situation. At the end of the day it matters not a jot to me, if I need to go through that area I will follow the regulation or I will go over the top IFR.
I will leave the rest of you to read blindly into the regulation and moan about it on forums.
I do understand that NATS/CAA are asking people to submit and indication of the financial implications of the restrictions. Perhaps worth submitting something around the costs of relocating elsewhere for the period and the cost of having to fly around the outside of the zone.
[email protected] if you are so inclined........
Bose, you are correct in stating that flight is prohibited unless you abide by the regulations:
But the regulations listed make it quite clear, in my view, that ability to be able to squawk a discrete code is required (even in the circuit). The only exceptions appear to be balloons, hang gliders and para gliders:
How to use the restricted zone
As to NATS being able to cope with the amount of demand it is likely to receive, I quote the following from the CAA:
Regards, jez
Flight from, into or within the Restricted Area is prohibited, except for those aircraft listed below adhering to the regulations as listed
How to use the restricted zone
As to NATS being able to cope with the amount of demand it is likely to receive, I quote the following from the CAA:
The simple answer is no-one knows the activity levels in class G.
Over the past few months we’ve been doing work with QinetiQ to try and get some kind of baseline figures which has been useful but needs more work and there is a proposal that one day this summer everyone is asked to file a VFR flightplan to get an idea of the demand.
NATS is working on its plans for what capacity will be available in the restricted area and they’ll publish that later but they have said they will be putting significant extra resource into AFPEx during the period and there will be extra ATC resource.
Over the past few months we’ve been doing work with QinetiQ to try and get some kind of baseline figures which has been useful but needs more work and there is a proposal that one day this summer everyone is asked to file a VFR flightplan to get an idea of the demand.
NATS is working on its plans for what capacity will be available in the restricted area and they’ll publish that later but they have said they will be putting significant extra resource into AFPEx during the period and there will be extra ATC resource.
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The simple answer is no-one knows the activity levels in class G.
Over the past few months we’ve been doing work with QinetiQ to try and get some kind of baseline figures which has been useful but needs more work and there is a proposal that one day this summer everyone is asked to file a VFR flightplan to get an idea of the demand.
NATS is working on its plans for what capacity will be available in the restricted area and they’ll publish that later but they have said they will be putting significant extra resource into AFPEx during the period and there will be extra ATC resource.
Over the past few months we’ve been doing work with QinetiQ to try and get some kind of baseline figures which has been useful but needs more work and there is a proposal that one day this summer everyone is asked to file a VFR flightplan to get an idea of the demand.
NATS is working on its plans for what capacity will be available in the restricted area and they’ll publish that later but they have said they will be putting significant extra resource into AFPEx during the period and there will be extra ATC resource.
It would appear my fears about that survey were more than justified and the data seriously misused.
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They can easily get an idea of most movements by looking at radar images.
Most primary radar targets in Class G are non-transponding so they can't get the altitude, but it's obvious from any actual flying around the UK that almost all non-transponding targets are flying at very low levels; typically under 1500ft.
Most primary radar targets in Class G are non-transponding so they can't get the altitude, but it's obvious from any actual flying around the UK that almost all non-transponding targets are flying at very low levels; typically under 1500ft.
but it's obvious from any actual flying around the UK that almost all non-transponding targets are flying at very low levels; typically under 1500ft.
Cross country Glider flights are typically 3-5 hours long and sometimes 10 or more. This makes gliding a significant part of the total aviation picture. 200 movements per hour is achieved from Lasham so watch out if these Olympic airspace restrictions funnel all GA into small volumes of airspace. Transiting past lasham will be more than interesting
bb
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Bose-X
You still don't get it do you.
Quote from the Olympic airspace website:- 4.Squawk and maintain discrete transponder code as allocated by the appropriate control authority.
Quote from Bose-x post#219 :- Where does it say flight is prohibited unless you sqwuak?
I cant see how the requirment for a transponder could be more clear.
Quote from the Olympic airspace website:- 4.Squawk and maintain discrete transponder code as allocated by the appropriate control authority.
Quote from Bose-x post#219 :- Where does it say flight is prohibited unless you sqwuak?
I cant see how the requirment for a transponder could be more clear.
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Why don't we all just protest libya style, and all just get airborne at friday prayer time in the middle of the opening ceremony and stick 2 fingers up at them all. Gliders,microlights, tmgs,sep,helos the whole shebang.
They won't shoot us all down!
It is incredible how in this country we let this drivel happen! it is absolutely pathetic.
I will tell you all a story now.
3 years ago I started work at heathrow. I turned up on first day, 2 days after an interview where I provided no id, references etc. No management was on site. I walked striaght through the cargo shed and was underneath a ba 747 within 2 mins of knocking on the door. Mental.
Still work there, and to this day I could put a device on a flight. Without a shadow of a doubt.
That is a security issue. Not gliders carrying no fuel. Not micros.
A 40 tonne truck loaded with fertiliser driving outside the stadium would cause a hell of a lot more carnage than a pa28 nose diving into the long jump pit at vne.
Let's all just get airborne when it happens, mass protest.
UAV
ps - those of you saying why not screen train passengers when the games go on, because the buggers will probably be on strike and no trains running! We need bob crow running aopa et al!
They won't shoot us all down!
It is incredible how in this country we let this drivel happen! it is absolutely pathetic.
I will tell you all a story now.
3 years ago I started work at heathrow. I turned up on first day, 2 days after an interview where I provided no id, references etc. No management was on site. I walked striaght through the cargo shed and was underneath a ba 747 within 2 mins of knocking on the door. Mental.
Still work there, and to this day I could put a device on a flight. Without a shadow of a doubt.
That is a security issue. Not gliders carrying no fuel. Not micros.
A 40 tonne truck loaded with fertiliser driving outside the stadium would cause a hell of a lot more carnage than a pa28 nose diving into the long jump pit at vne.
Let's all just get airborne when it happens, mass protest.
UAV
ps - those of you saying why not screen train passengers when the games go on, because the buggers will probably be on strike and no trains running! We need bob crow running aopa et al!
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BadBear,
An interesting post on glider ops, but totally irrelevant to the thread. About the highest the restricted area goes is 3,500. Above that you are clear of the restricted area and have no problems. You just need to have an IR and be on an IFR flightplan and conform to the normal class A airspace rules
An interesting post on glider ops, but totally irrelevant to the thread. About the highest the restricted area goes is 3,500. Above that you are clear of the restricted area and have no problems. You just need to have an IR and be on an IFR flightplan and conform to the normal class A airspace rules
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Bose-X
You still don't get it do you.
Quote from the Olympic airspace website:- 4.Squawk and maintain discrete transponder code as allocated by the appropriate control authority.
Quote from Bose-x post#219 :- Where does it say flight is prohibited unless you sqwuak?
I cant see how the requirment for a transponder could be more clear.
You still don't get it do you.
Quote from the Olympic airspace website:- 4.Squawk and maintain discrete transponder code as allocated by the appropriate control authority.
Quote from Bose-x post#219 :- Where does it say flight is prohibited unless you sqwuak?
I cant see how the requirment for a transponder could be more clear.
Have you actually bothered to contact NATS/CAA and ask them for a statement on the transponder requirement? I listed the address earlier. Lets start with that and ask for a clear interpretation rather than making your own and then bludgeoning people into agreeing with you.
If the case is that unless you have a transponder you are sat on the ground or have to move outside the zone then you need to state the financial case to the CAA via the address I gave. As I understand it they are looking for people to actually present a case. This requires direct input to them rather than opinion on forums.
We are also side tracking away from my original point that even if those without a transponder are effected it would be interesting to see the actual numbers. For the rest of the users in the restricted zone who have a transponder I do not see the issue. The rules are a pain but not impossible and are no different from the permanent rules that exist in many of the European countries I have taught in. As I said before, when I taught in Cyprus, every flight had to have a flight plan and we had to fly to the training area to conduct training and notify they return time.
Why is there always so much doom and gloom from pilots?
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As I said before, when I taught in Cyprus, every flight had to have a flight plan and we had to fly to the training area to conduct training and notify they return time.
Pilots whinge because also to be fair there is constant regulatory pressure to limit what we do; i am not aware of similiar pressure in any other enviroment. Moreover there is often no case to be answered.
Dont run down those that challenge changes in whatever way they wish but i agree every encouragement to make their vies known through the official channels is to be applauded.
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All,
No axe to grind, no insults, nothing like that. However, I think my post (178) got lost in all the banter.
As bose suggested, I had previously contacted FAQ then Olympic airspace, and they confirmed to me that microlights would need a transponder installed to fly in the restricted airspace, EVEN if only doing circuits. I can PM anyone who wants a copy of the email.
That's not my opinion or interpretation, but from the horses mouth (or other parts, depending on what you think of this legislation)
Ta. IPZ
No axe to grind, no insults, nothing like that. However, I think my post (178) got lost in all the banter.
As bose suggested, I had previously contacted FAQ then Olympic airspace, and they confirmed to me that microlights would need a transponder installed to fly in the restricted airspace, EVEN if only doing circuits. I can PM anyone who wants a copy of the email.
That's not my opinion or interpretation, but from the horses mouth (or other parts, depending on what you think of this legislation)
Ta. IPZ
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It does seem very strange to strangle us ppls, gliders etc, when the last attack using civilian aircraft were all ifr, on flight plans, with transponders etc, carrying passengers having departed from large airports, and the attack still happened.
Such a load of tosh. That bearded goat sh@gger has won. He is not walking this earth and we are still terrified.
Such a load of tosh. That bearded goat sh@gger has won. He is not walking this earth and we are still terrified.
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Bose-x calm down dear it's only a forum.
As it happend I have take some action, my MP has my letter on the restricted zone subject, and we are awaiting a reply from the Minister for Transport, I would say the more letters he gets on his desk the more chance we have of getting the rules relaxed.
The reply to the CAA/NATS is underway as I need to get the numbers clear in my head as to what these restrictions are likely to cost my business
The reply to the CAA/NATS is underway as I need to get the numbers clear in my head as to what these restrictions are likely to cost my business
Last edited by A and C; 15th May 2011 at 06:23.
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The problem is that the primary radar coverage of the UK is particularly pants.
They have a whole heap of problems with a thing called mosaque which is the level which they swap over feeds from one radar head from the other. And there are huge areas that they can't get much at all.
And there isn't a mil topcover option anymore after they scrapped a certain airframe type.
So basically I can understand why the want things to have a transponder because otherwise they can't see alot of traffic.
They have a whole heap of problems with a thing called mosaque which is the level which they swap over feeds from one radar head from the other. And there are huge areas that they can't get much at all.
And there isn't a mil topcover option anymore after they scrapped a certain airframe type.
So basically I can understand why the want things to have a transponder because otherwise they can't see alot of traffic.
'just another atco'
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The problem is that the primary radar coverage of the UK is particularly pants.
They have a whole heap of problems with a thing called mosaque which is the level which they swap over feeds from one radar head from the other. And there are huge areas that they can't get much at all.
And there isn't a mil topcover option anymore after they
They have a whole heap of problems with a thing called mosaque which is the level which they swap over feeds from one radar head from the other. And there are huge areas that they can't get much at all.
And there isn't a mil topcover option anymore after they
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Fair enough you have more info than I do.
My only experence of this is having an airprox while under an old RAS and the traffic was never seen on radar because that mosaque thing. Well that was one of the factors along with microlights not giving a very strong return linked with them not going very fast causing the software to not to paint them on the controllers screen.
But by your handle alone I bow to your knowledge and conced I was talking bollocks as it is obviously your area.
My only experence of this is having an airprox while under an old RAS and the traffic was never seen on radar because that mosaque thing. Well that was one of the factors along with microlights not giving a very strong return linked with them not going very fast causing the software to not to paint them on the controllers screen.
But by your handle alone I bow to your knowledge and conced I was talking bollocks as it is obviously your area.