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Old 11th May 2011, 13:17
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The blind leading the blind

All this airspace restriction stupidity in my opinion is likely to make an attack on the Olympics more likely not less likely.

As the normal law abiding population of airfields shuts up shop for the airspace restriction period and puts the aircraft on Ground risk insurance and sods off to the South of France with the money saved the airfields will become depopulated by the normal users.

The result is that any unusual activity will go unnoticed, any extra police patrols (if they have the funds) would probably be unable to tell the diference between normal & non normal activity as they have no idea what is normal airfield activity. (any policeman will tell you that with out the help of the public they are next to helpless).

The best place to stop any aviation related terrorist attack is on the ground not in the air and the best people to provide airfield security in depth are the normal population of the of that airfield.
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Old 11th May 2011, 13:46
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I am not sure what all the fuss is about? According to the proposal, there is a bit of prohibited space which an area we are not normally allowed in anyway and then there is a bit that has some restrictions which while they are a little bit of a pain in the ass are not impossible to deal with. Basically flying clubs will need a daily transponder code, individuals will need to file a flight plan and IFR traffic is pretty much business as usual.

There may be a few flying as normal on the ragerdy edge of poverty or aircraft capability that don't have the required equipment but by large almost everyone is able to comply.

Am I missing something?
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Old 11th May 2011, 14:15
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Bose-X

Try operating a flying club like this :-

No student solo flying.

Each filight has to have a flight plan & stick to it in terms of waypionts & EAT's etc (just how do you teach anything except navigation with those rules).

Filght plans can be rejected at any time. (great when the student turns up & cant fly).

I am sure that others will add more but this is enough to kill flying clubs in this time of economic troubles when most of the income happens in the summer months but I know of one airfield that estimates the loss of £0.5M business over the restricted airspace period.

Last edited by A and C; 11th May 2011 at 14:35.
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Old 11th May 2011, 14:24
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How many flying clubs are effected? Number of students?

Whats the problem with having to have a flight plan? We are quite lucky in being one of the few countries in Europe that does not insist on a flight plan for EVERY flight. I have flown in Europe under far more draconian restrictions which are the norm rather than the exception.

The airspace is not huge. From what I can see its 10 minutes flying to get out of it for all the clubs it covers so a lesson plan would involve exit of the zone, lesson content and return into the zone. All restrictions I have taught under in Europe without issue.

I think we may be making a mountain out of a mole hill here? Like I said a bit of a pain in the ass when we are used to greater freedom but not exactly the end of the world?

Just playing devils advocate!
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Old 11th May 2011, 14:36
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No just being your normal provcative self
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Old 11th May 2011, 16:14
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Bose,

You really haven't a clue, have you ?

[The Home Counties & beyond have had a two months NO FLY zone imposed, affecting a great many small airfields & strips, not all on the charts. Microlight a/c and LAA typres normally don't need & rarely install transponders.]

I don't think you're acting Devil's Advocate - just acting up !

mikehallam.
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Old 11th May 2011, 16:46
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Oxford Kidlington

The next restriction.
They have applied for huge chunk of Class D airspace for the Olympics. Just south of DTY to WCO Harwell and bounding onto Brize.
All that is required is a small temporary extention of the Brize Zone to the East to accomodate radar positioning to 19/01 at Kidlington by Brize( Oxford have no radar)
There is an Oxford airport web address to comment on the application they have made.
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Old 11th May 2011, 16:49
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I think we have to understand the reasons for the restriction? Is it because of the shear volume of traffic expected for the Olympics or some fear of terrorist attacks?

I know of one orgaisation in Doncaster who are hoping to secure high prices on jet parking with a 1 hr 40 min train ride to london.

Personally I cannot understand masses of people watching olympics but hotels are supposed to be full charging overbloated £700 per night so some people must get a kick out of watching the long jump or whatever All to their own?

If its based on fear of terrorist attacks I was under the impression that attention was now on to derailing zero security high speed trains not aircraft?

I flew as a co pilot a couple of days after 9/11 up an airway which bordered the 20 mile restriction zone around London.
Passing 24000 feet the then Captain and i worked out that had we been terrorists with evil intent it would have taken us 3 minutes to reach central london so why the zone?

Pureley political for the ignorant public consumption.
But its a good reflection of the lack of importance given to light GA in Europe nowadays?

pace

Last edited by Pace; 11th May 2011 at 17:46.
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Old 11th May 2011, 17:00
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Pace

As you say this has nothing to do with security it is all about being seen to be doing something ijn case something happens & it is all for public consumption.
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Old 11th May 2011, 17:33
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The restricted zone is bollox. All that a terrorist needs to do is go through the hoops, or just depart from some field and fly low down and the only way to stop those would be a missile-armed helicopter patrolling near every site.

Greece basically grounded its GA around Athens in 2004, but this was bollox too as far as risk management because plenty of traffic could overfly, on flight plans, etc.

The funny bit was that they didn't bother much for the paralympics - presumably because bombing them was either less likely or less a matter of public interest.
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Old 11th May 2011, 17:57
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As you say this has nothing to do with security it is all about being seen to be doing something ijn case something happens & it is all for public consumption.
I wonder if they have airline like security checks planned for the thousands/millions of people piling into trains and the London underground dragging their cases holding god knows what?

Somehow I doubt it as the City would seize solid if they even attempted a fraction of what is expected at airports.

Yet any terrorist would have easy pickings with the railway and underground network compared to the airlines and that as was discovered was the terrorists future intent not airports.

Pace
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Old 11th May 2011, 18:08
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Bose,

You really haven't a clue, have you ?

[The Home Counties & beyond have had a two months NO FLY zone imposed, affecting a great many small airfields & strips, not all on the charts. Microlight a/c and LAA typres normally don't need & rarely install transponders.]

I don't think you're acting Devil's Advocate - just acting up !

mikehallam.
Mike, no I am not acting up I am opening up discussion to wider than the doomsayers view the world has come to an end. I am looking at the notice and the restrictions and I am not seeing a NO FLY zone (other than the centre where light GA never has access anyway). What I am seeing is a bunch of requirements that may be a pain in the ass but are not the end of the world.

Please explain to me exactly what you are seeing in these restrictions that I am missing?
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Old 11th May 2011, 18:11
  #153 (permalink)  
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There may be a few flying as normal on the ragerdy edge of poverty or aircraft capability that don't have the required equipment but by large almost everyone is able to comply.
Ok, I'll bite

Some (in fact, probably more than 50% if you include the microlight and glider fraternity) of us are quite happy to operate aircraft on a shoestring budget, not fly some plastic IFR wonderplane and swan off to the continent every weekend for lunch with our cravat wearing millionaire mates and their trophy wives..

Just wait till you submit your Flight Plan to go off to Le Touq and find the system has fallen over and you too are grounded..



Non radio, Non transponder equipped Jodel owner and proud of it
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Old 11th May 2011, 18:22
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What makes you think the system is going to fall over? I don't believe there have been any cases of the AFPEX system falling over to date?

I wonder how many movements there are inside that restricted zone on a normal flying day. By that I mean those that start and end the same flight inside the zone and how many of those are in aircraft that can't meet the requirements. Allowance seems to have been made for all types in the notice. It's just it will be a pain to follow but not impossible.

Like I said, I am happy to be shown what I am missing here that convinces you and others they will be grounded. Can you do me a favour and cut and paste the bits that concern you and explain why?
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Old 11th May 2011, 18:37
  #155 (permalink)  
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Allowance seems to have been made for all types in the notice.
Well you obviously haven't read it very well then. Aircraft without transponders are specifically excluded. Why should I equip my aircraft with electronic devices just to exercise the privilege of flying VFR in Class G airspace for 2 months, when i can do it now with no problem?

Despite the impressive amount of posts, I reckon you are not very worldly wise when it comes to Grass roots aviation.
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Old 11th May 2011, 18:47
  #156 (permalink)  
 
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Please can you post where it says that aircraft without a transponder are prohibited?

Are you looking at a different site to me?

I think you will find as an LAA Coach and private strip flyer including flying an aircraft that has no radio, transponder or electrical system I am plenty worldly enough to understand the grass roots.

If it means I have to fly around with a handheld wired in for a couple of months then so be it......
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Old 11th May 2011, 18:50
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How will the restrictions work?

Airspace restrictions will be placed around all Games venues. The major restriction will be centred on London and the Olympic Stadium. These will run from 13 July 2012 to 12 September 2012 and will be implemented by the Government through its commitment to deliver a safe and secure Games. Airspace restrictions around other Games venues will only be in place for the duration of the event at each venue, in line with those used for major sporting events. Extra security restrictions may be placed on flights at any time. All restrictions are from ground level to the base of controlled airspace.

Prohibited Zone: Aircraft will not be allowed within the Prohibited Zone unless they are IFR traffic and have undergone crew, passengers and baggage screening in accordance with the relevant aviation security programme, and inbound to or outbound from Heathrow, London City, RAF Northolt, Biggin Hill and under the control of those airports or NATS TC or Thames Radar. They must also meet all the requirements to enter the Restricted Zone.

Restricted Zone: Aircraft will be allowed to enter the Restricted Zone if they can comply with a set of requirements defined by aircraft type (see How to use the restricted zone).

Airfields within the Prohibited Zone, and airfields within 3nm of the outer boundary of the Restricted Zone, may apply for certain exemptions to the restrictions subject to specific conditions to be agreed with the appropriate authorities. The following airfields have been identified as potential examples of these. Prohibited Zone: London City; Northolt; White Waltham; Denham; Fairoaks and London Heliport (Battersea). Restricted Zone: Duxford; Shuttleworth (Old Warden); Halton; Dunstable Downs; Lashenden (Headcorn); Earls Colne; Booker and Weathersfield. Applications will be considered on a case by case basis.

Aircraft that will be exempted from the restrictions include Police and Medivac operations and aircraft operating for the Olympic Broadcast Service. Special procedures apply to these aircraft.

How to use the restricted zone

Flight from, into or within the Restricted Area is prohibited, except for those aircraft listed below adhering to the regulations as listed. The availability of access to this airspace will be limited by ATC capacity.

Aircraft type* Regulations
Small/large Unmanned and Model Aircraft Current Air Navigation Order regulation applies.
Hot Air Balloon Obtain permission of the relevant control authority before launch.
Hang Glider
Para Glider
Position** of launch sites to be notified to the relevant control authority a minimum of 2 hours before launch.
Notify relevant control authority when cease flying.
Remain within 3nm of launch site.
Unpowered glider
Launches from specified BGA/RAFGSA*** sites only, activation of which must be notified to the relevant control authority a minimum of 2 hours before launch.
Remain within 3nm of launch site.
Cross Country Gliding (unless launching and recovering from the sites above where exit from and entry to the Restricted Zone is solely contained within 3nm of the launch site) and Other Sites: Booker, Kenley.
File a Flight Plan on AFPEx or AFTN between 24 hrs and 2 hrs before take-off and follow it - no airborne or faxed flight plans will be permitted.
Receive an acceptance message and approval number to flight plan.
Establish and maintain 2 way RT with appropriate control agency quoting approval number.
Squawk and maintain discrete transponder code as allocated by the appropriate control authority.
Receive an ATC service and comply with ATC instructions.
Microlight
Self Launching Motor Glider
Touring Motor Glider
Airship
Autogyro
Paramotor
All Helicopters
All powered fixed-wing aircraft
File a Flight Plan on AFPEx or AFTN between 24 hrs and 2 hours before take-off and follow it - no airborne or faxed flight plans will be permitted.
Receive an acceptance message and approval number to flight plan.
Establish and maintain 2 way RT with appropriate control agency quoting approval number.
Squawk and maintain discrete transponder code as allocated by the appropriate control authority.
Receive an ATC service and comply with ATC instructions.
Circuit flying is permitted at airfields within the Restricted Zone without the need for a flight plan provided ac squawk a discrete transponder code. Airfield managers must contact the appropriate control agency daily at commencement and cessation of flying for allocation and return of a daily changing code, and aircraft may not leave the visual circuit except on landing or in accordance with the rules at 1-5 above
* As defined by the ANO. ** Position reporting can be by OS Grid, Lat / Long or range and bearing from major feature. ***All except Booker and Kenley.

Additional Regulations: Flight Planning - all flight plans must include accurate timings and waypoints, including waypoints if leaving or entering the zone. No solo student cross country flying will be permitted in the Restricted Zone. For the Olympic Airspace Restrictions, both Mode S and Mode 3 A/C are considered as acceptable forms of compliance to SSR carriage outside of Mode S notified Controlled Airspace below FL100.

Exemptions from the Olympic Airspace Regulations are to be finally determined, but will include: Emergency Services - ASU and HEMS and military aircraft operating in support of Olympic security tasks. Aircraft operating on behalf of the Olympic Broadcast Service (London), and infrastructure inspection flights subject to certain conditions.
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Old 11th May 2011, 19:11
  #158 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by bose-x
How will the restrictions work?

Airspace restrictions will be placed around all Games venues. The major restriction will be centred on London and the Olympic Stadium. These will run from 13 July 2012 to 12 September 2012 and will be implemented by the Government through its commitment to deliver a safe and secure Games. Airspace restrictions around other Games venues will only be in place for the duration of the event at each venue, in line with those used for major sporting events. Extra security restrictions may be placed on flights at any time. All restrictions are from ground level to the base of controlled airspace.

Prohibited Zone: Aircraft will not be allowed within the Prohibited Zone unless they are IFR traffic and have undergone crew, passengers and baggage screening in accordance with the relevant aviation security programme, and inbound to or outbound from Heathrow, London City, RAF Northolt, Biggin Hill and under the control of those airports or NATS TC or Thames Radar. They must also meet all the requirements to enter the Restricted Zone.

Restricted Zone: Aircraft will be allowed to enter the Restricted Zone if they can comply with a set of requirements defined by aircraft type (see How to use the restricted zone).

Airfields within the Prohibited Zone, and airfields within 3nm of the outer boundary of the Restricted Zone, may apply for certain exemptions to the restrictions subject to specific conditions to be agreed with the appropriate authorities. The following airfields have been identified as potential examples of these. Prohibited Zone: London City; Northolt; White Waltham; Denham; Fairoaks and London Heliport (Battersea). Restricted Zone: Duxford; Shuttleworth (Old Warden); Halton; Dunstable Downs; Lashenden (Headcorn); Earls Colne; Booker and Weathersfield. Applications will be considered on a case by case basis.

Aircraft that will be exempted from the restrictions include Police and Medivac operations and aircraft operating for the Olympic Broadcast Service. Special procedures apply to these aircraft.

How to use the restricted zone

Flight from, into or within the Restricted Area is prohibited, except for those aircraft listed below adhering to the regulations as listed. The availability of access to this airspace will be limited by ATC capacity.

Aircraft type* Regulations
Small/large Unmanned and Model Aircraft Current Air Navigation Order regulation applies.
Hot Air Balloon Obtain permission of the relevant control authority before launch.
Hang Glider
Para Glider
Position** of launch sites to be notified to the relevant control authority a minimum of 2 hours before launch.
Notify relevant control authority when cease flying.
Remain within 3nm of launch site.
Unpowered glider
Launches from specified BGA/RAFGSA*** sites only, activation of which must be notified to the relevant control authority a minimum of 2 hours before launch.
Remain within 3nm of launch site.
Cross Country Gliding (unless launching and recovering from the sites above where exit from and entry to the Restricted Zone is solely contained within 3nm of the launch site) and Other Sites: Booker, Kenley.
File a Flight Plan on AFPEx or AFTN between 24 hrs and 2 hrs before take-off and follow it - no airborne or faxed flight plans will be permitted.
Receive an acceptance message and approval number to flight plan.
Establish and maintain 2 way RT with appropriate control agency quoting approval number.
Squawk and maintain discrete transponder code as allocated by the appropriate control authority.

Receive an ATC service and comply with ATC instructions.
Microlight
Self Launching Motor Glider
Touring Motor Glider
Airship
Autogyro
Paramotor
All Helicopters
All powered fixed-wing aircraft
File a Flight Plan on AFPEx or AFTN between 24 hrs and 2 hours before take-off and follow it - no airborne or faxed flight plans will be permitted.
Receive an acceptance message and approval number to flight plan.
Establish and maintain 2 way RT with appropriate control agency quoting approval number.
Squawk and maintain discrete transponder code as allocated by the appropriate control authority.

Receive an ATC service and comply with ATC instructions.
Circuit flying is permitted at airfields within the Restricted Zone without the need for a flight plan provided ac squawk a discrete transponder code. Airfield managers must contact the appropriate control agency daily at commencement and cessation of flying for allocation and return of a daily changing code, and aircraft may not leave the visual circuit except on landing or in accordance with the rules at 1-5 above
* As defined by the ANO. ** Position reporting can be by OS Grid, Lat / Long or range and bearing from major feature. ***All except Booker and Kenley.

Additional Regulations: Flight Planning - all flight plans must include accurate timings and waypoints, including waypoints if leaving or entering the zone. No solo student cross country flying will be permitted in the Restricted Zone. For the Olympic Airspace Restrictions, both Mode S and Mode 3 A/C are considered as acceptable forms of compliance to SSR carriage outside of Mode S notified Controlled Airspace below FL100.

Exemptions from the Olympic Airspace Regulations are to be finally determined, but will include: Emergency Services - ASU and HEMS and military aircraft operating in support of Olympic security tasks. Aircraft operating on behalf of the Olympic Broadcast Service (London), and infrastructure inspection flights subject to certain conditions.
No radio or no transponder = bang out of luck?
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Old 11th May 2011, 19:11
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Bose

I take your point that if this is purely about filing a flight plan then that happens in France all the time but its the approval bit which is cause for concern and the track record of a lot of the security descisions holding little reason.

As stated the terrorists had plans to target trains not aircraft yet millions will use the rail networks.

You only have to see the volumes of people piling into the London tube on friday night to realise the problems.

Can you see all those people opening their cases, removing liquids, going through scanning machines, removing belts watches clothing etc?

Why do aircraft require more security than trains? They both carry equal numbers of passengers with equal potential disasters should terrorists strike yet the trains have NO security while aircraft have turned into a massive security industry spending $billions and employing thousands.

The difference is with aircraft they can with trains they cannot as the whole system would grind to a halt with any security restrictions even minor ones.

So my question is WHY? as it appears to be one rule for the aviation industry and none for equal potential hazards.
Who pays for all this? I am afraid our industry and our pilots.

Pace
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Old 11th May 2011, 19:24
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Bose,

I think that whilst you can copy prodigiously you ought to read it through.
For the WHOLE TWO MONTHS all non txpdr a/c in the Restricted zone are thus far grounded. Even with flight planning it's likely to be rationed and severely restricted, if only by the time needed to issue approvals - if one has the necessary txpdr too.

As you doubtless are aware to cater for other Olympic's airspace & expected traffic surge into many large London area airfields, NATS/CAA are following a consultative procedure to lower and increase controlled airspace. Most GA users so far appear favourable to the process.

However the BAN was imposed without such procedure and all the private flying organisations now have to lift their efforts from countering unjust EASA dicta and spend time on trying to get HMG DfT to think harder and find some alleviation.

It's not a joke and commercial schools, and other airfield dependent business will suffer unprotected financial loss. Engineering overheads, Permit expiry 1/6th unused, 16% of annual insurance, ditto hangarage, rent, staff, hire purchase payments, radio and other essential Licences: ALL will be a one way drain without recompense.
Possibly very small firms will go under, hardly a joke or in need of flippant remarks.

mikehallam
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