Olympic Airpsace Restrictions
Mil top cover
Mad Jock, I also mourn the slaughter of a certain aircraft type. However, if by top cover you mean the ability to have a comprehensive radar picture form the air, The E3 AWACS is still with us and very active at present. The capabilities of that aircraft are quite simply staggering. I reckon they could even verify that you pick your nose as you proceed thru the restricted zone 
Whether this restrictions nonsense serves any practical purpose is another matter
Osama may well be departed but he's got some of us frightened of our own shadows. 
Whether this restrictions nonsense serves any practical purpose is another matter
Osama may well be departed but he's got some of us frightened of our own shadows.
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That shows a remarkable lack of understanding of the situation. I know a significant number of pilots who are prepared to fit a transponder, but the regulations will not let them...
Another example is the max empty weight rule. Many “new generation” micros are very close to this limit – 1lb being common... Well over 1000 micros cannot fit the device legally because of this rule.
Another example is the max empty weight rule. Many “new generation” micros are very close to this limit – 1lb being common... Well over 1000 micros cannot fit the device legally because of this rule.
As for radios, I take it you think any fool can take a hh radio up and just use it? ... I could get the radio to work at the cost of a misfire, or the engine to work but blanket the radio. I never solved the issue.
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every flight had to have a flight plan and we had to fly to the training area to conduct training and notify they return time.
Why is there always so much doom and gloom from pilots?
Why is there always so much doom and gloom from pilots?
This is a principal concern - the way the rules have been written, traffic levels can easily be restricted to some random / near zero level.
NoD
Copied From the Flyer Forum------Glum pointers from Dawn Lindsey who was our NATS mediator with DfT.
"Monday 23rd May.
The Department of Transport and the CAA at the recent EBACE exhibition in Geneva, provided further insight into arrangements for the 2012 Olympics (writes Rod Simpson). FLYER was able to pose a number of questions to representatives Phil Dykins (Department of Transport) and Dawn Lindsey (Head of CAA Olympic Airspace Planning) and they said their objective was to cause as little disruption as possible to existing airspace users........
...................More Guff,................. then :-
It seems certain that the restrictions will be burdensome and will prevent much private VFR flying for the two-month period. Pressure is being brought by many flying organisations but it appears that all the other pressures on the system make it unlikely that there will be much relaxation of the proposals."
Has anyone yet got any feed-back on any concessions at all, for non txpdr a/c pls ?
mikehallam
"Monday 23rd May.
The Department of Transport and the CAA at the recent EBACE exhibition in Geneva, provided further insight into arrangements for the 2012 Olympics (writes Rod Simpson). FLYER was able to pose a number of questions to representatives Phil Dykins (Department of Transport) and Dawn Lindsey (Head of CAA Olympic Airspace Planning) and they said their objective was to cause as little disruption as possible to existing airspace users........
...................More Guff,................. then :-
It seems certain that the restrictions will be burdensome and will prevent much private VFR flying for the two-month period. Pressure is being brought by many flying organisations but it appears that all the other pressures on the system make it unlikely that there will be much relaxation of the proposals."
Has anyone yet got any feed-back on any concessions at all, for non txpdr a/c pls ?
mikehallam
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just a thought
I feel sure that security would be much better if a "dry run" is inisiated maybe a date should be chosen ... a nice good weather week end this summer... then we all fly as if the restrictions were in place... choke points would appear, Radar would become cluttered and controllers would become over swamped and the flight planning system would crash. maybe the RAF could join in on this excersize and "painball" a few stray GA aircraft. maybe, just maybe, this would create a rethink as long as they don't ground us all, we must remember that some security guys ass is on the line and that's the only reason it's happening, ... it's nothing to do with security it's all about protecting the security guys jobs... imagine if , if ... if a GA aircraft "landed" on an olympic event and there was no airspace restriction in place... who would be at fault? the government?, GA? or some poor security "fall guy" sitting behind a desk?. if no flying then that's 1 threat removed, no one died following a GA security breach ... job done, pension paid.
if you never fly, you never crash ! no GA flights, no security problem from the air problem solved .... pension paid so anyone fancy a dry run ?
I feel sure that security would be much better if a "dry run" is inisiated maybe a date should be chosen ... a nice good weather week end this summer... then we all fly as if the restrictions were in place... choke points would appear, Radar would become cluttered and controllers would become over swamped and the flight planning system would crash. maybe the RAF could join in on this excersize and "painball" a few stray GA aircraft. maybe, just maybe, this would create a rethink as long as they don't ground us all, we must remember that some security guys ass is on the line and that's the only reason it's happening, ... it's nothing to do with security it's all about protecting the security guys jobs... imagine if , if ... if a GA aircraft "landed" on an olympic event and there was no airspace restriction in place... who would be at fault? the government?, GA? or some poor security "fall guy" sitting behind a desk?. if no flying then that's 1 threat removed, no one died following a GA security breach ... job done, pension paid.
if you never fly, you never crash ! no GA flights, no security problem from the air problem solved .... pension paid so anyone fancy a dry run ?
real threat?
The way bad bear sees it there are 2 main risks;
1 An exec jet could use an airliner for cover and follow it down the approach before breaking off from a 10 mile final for Heathrow and be on the main village before anyone could do any thing about it. There are two things that could minimise this risk, firstly have all exec jets land at a NATO base for search and crew check before being allowed to continue to the security zone. Secondly make sure that no biz jets are allowed within 60 miles of the stadium.
2 the Exec jets and their VIP passengers could be a target from ground bases missiles as the proposal forces the jets down to low level for a very long time rather than keeping them high and safe.
As I say bad bear knows nothing but would guess that any bad guys would see the existing proposals and laugh their legs off. There is nothing to stop bad guys coming from a country that supports terrorism with an exec jet and have the British ATC vector them to within a few miles of target before aiming for the village from close range.
Just get rid of the exec jets and let the airlines have some club class passengers and much of this will go away.
1 An exec jet could use an airliner for cover and follow it down the approach before breaking off from a 10 mile final for Heathrow and be on the main village before anyone could do any thing about it. There are two things that could minimise this risk, firstly have all exec jets land at a NATO base for search and crew check before being allowed to continue to the security zone. Secondly make sure that no biz jets are allowed within 60 miles of the stadium.
2 the Exec jets and their VIP passengers could be a target from ground bases missiles as the proposal forces the jets down to low level for a very long time rather than keeping them high and safe.
As I say bad bear knows nothing but would guess that any bad guys would see the existing proposals and laugh their legs off. There is nothing to stop bad guys coming from a country that supports terrorism with an exec jet and have the British ATC vector them to within a few miles of target before aiming for the village from close range.
Just get rid of the exec jets and let the airlines have some club class passengers and much of this will go away.
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Just thinking about the practicalities.... if NATS/ CAA are responsible for air space and security are trying to save lives by preventing terrorism, then with the restrictions in place choke points are created, so more chance of a midair collision which could result in loss of life, atc will only offer a basic service who then is responsible for the midair /, the PIC for look out, but could it then be argued in court that if the choke point were not there would the accident have happened. Will we see an increase in midair collisions operated by spamcan pilots with head in the office transfixed on a GPS for fear of deviating from the permissable airspace for fear of being "shot down" or fined. I just think there is a safety issue in these restrictions and I'm not sure a midair could solely be put down to PIC look out. if not then maybe the "lifesaving" security organisation will have to pick up the tab and explain themselves to the families. Are olympic spectators lives more valuable than those crash on in a village hall 30miles away ?
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There is also going to be a big restricted area centred on Portland for the sailing events. Why is that no depicted anywhere as this will have serious implications to SW pilots.
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There is a lot of the "...they can just do that and turn for the stadium..." og "...the bad guys can just do that..."
Sure, most of them are true, but it's all about creating a more known enviroment for the air defense people in the area around the prohibited zone. That makes id'ing bad guys easier, and gives the asset they want to use to bring it down more lead time. (Don't get too hung up on fighters on CAP or ground QRA)
Having worked in airspace with similar restrictions when we gave Obana the Nobel prize (shameful, I know....), and just commenting on stuff that the mil boys allready fronted in the media at time: They don't need much time from a unknown breaching the zone, to having sensor on target that CAN id it, and then bring it down.
I'm quite sure the UK MOD will have similar systems available to them if deemed prudent.
Actually given the infringement stats in the UK, having a big buffer zone round the prohibited zone is probably a good idea! (Less pilots will get to see various RAF platforms close up )
Sure, most of them are true, but it's all about creating a more known enviroment for the air defense people in the area around the prohibited zone. That makes id'ing bad guys easier, and gives the asset they want to use to bring it down more lead time. (Don't get too hung up on fighters on CAP or ground QRA)
Having worked in airspace with similar restrictions when we gave Obana the Nobel prize (shameful, I know....), and just commenting on stuff that the mil boys allready fronted in the media at time: They don't need much time from a unknown breaching the zone, to having sensor on target that CAN id it, and then bring it down.
I'm quite sure the UK MOD will have similar systems available to them if deemed prudent.
Actually given the infringement stats in the UK, having a big buffer zone round the prohibited zone is probably a good idea! (Less pilots will get to see various RAF platforms close up
)
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OK M609
Our very clever military can identify a 'rogue' aircraft within a couple of miles. So they could decide to bring it down with a CAP or with 'ground assets'.
The end result is very much in the same ballpark as crashing the aircraft into a stadium. With any level of control it would be aimed at an area of population density.
And then we would see how the 'clever military' - and their political masters - dealt with the fallout of downing an aircraft because it was in the wrong place...................
Like virtually everything about security this is a window dressing exercise, meant to make people think there is something of substance behind it. It does not take much thinking to realise there are more holes than the average lace curtain.
Our very clever military can identify a 'rogue' aircraft within a couple of miles. So they could decide to bring it down with a CAP or with 'ground assets'.
The end result is very much in the same ballpark as crashing the aircraft into a stadium. With any level of control it would be aimed at an area of population density.
And then we would see how the 'clever military' - and their political masters - dealt with the fallout of downing an aircraft because it was in the wrong place...................
Like virtually everything about security this is a window dressing exercise, meant to make people think there is something of substance behind it. It does not take much thinking to realise there are more holes than the average lace curtain.
Pompey till I die
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They've already won
By stripping us of our liberty the bad guys have already won.
As a side note, it's a shame that Fairoaks is just in the no fly zone, by about 2 miles.
As a side note, it's a shame that Fairoaks is just in the no fly zone, by about 2 miles.
In an attept to insert sanity into the 'consultation' the BGA has sent this
http://tinyurl.com/5tb7dkp
and in an attempt to make things even worse, Oxford Airport propose this:
http://tinyurl.com/66y2vlb
We could all admit the terrorists have won in their attack on (sensible) liberrtarian values and emigrate. But where to?
http://tinyurl.com/5tb7dkp
and in an attempt to make things even worse, Oxford Airport propose this:
http://tinyurl.com/66y2vlb
We could all admit the terrorists have won in their attack on (sensible) liberrtarian values and emigrate. But where to?
Thread Starter
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Just in case you wondered where the priorities lie in the world of Aviation,
Order of the British Empire
Philip ROBERTS, Assistant Director, Airspace Policy, Civil Aviation Authority. For services to the Airline Industry.
From the Queen's Birthday Honours list
Order of the British Empire
Philip ROBERTS, Assistant Director, Airspace Policy, Civil Aviation Authority. For services to the Airline Industry.
From the Queen's Birthday Honours list
Anybody know him ? is he an Air Trafficker?.is he a Pilot..What is his background ?
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I don't see this guys OBE as any sort of issue when it comes to the Olympic airspace restrictions as these are all being cooked up by the Home Office.
At the moment the only way to get anything changed is to get someone who the Home Office know and trust to push the case for GA.
This is what a group of GA stake holders are doing, Lord Stevens is heading up the efforts to ease the restrictions and I would urge all of you to write to your MP's asking them to ask the Minister to meet with Lord Stevens and take his advice as he has a well informed views from both a security and GA standpoint.
So in the time it takes for you to reply to this post you can get on to TheyWorkForYou.com: Are your MPs and Peers working for you in the UK's Parliament? Hansard++ and dash off a short letter to your MP to put pressure on the Minister for Transport to meet with Lord Stevens and get some balanced advice.
At the moment the only way to get anything changed is to get someone who the Home Office know and trust to push the case for GA.
This is what a group of GA stake holders are doing, Lord Stevens is heading up the efforts to ease the restrictions and I would urge all of you to write to your MP's asking them to ask the Minister to meet with Lord Stevens and take his advice as he has a well informed views from both a security and GA standpoint.
So in the time it takes for you to reply to this post you can get on to TheyWorkForYou.com: Are your MPs and Peers working for you in the UK's Parliament? Hansard++ and dash off a short letter to your MP to put pressure on the Minister for Transport to meet with Lord Stevens and get some balanced advice.
Last edited by A and C; 12th Jun 2011 at 07:00.
Thread Starter
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I wrote to my MP, a decent sort of bloke, when this lunacy was released to the public. He copied me the reply letter he had received last week from James Brockenshire MP, the Parliamentary Under Secretary for Crime And Security.
Despite the padded out 2 pages, my own take on that letter is there's absolutely no chance of anything being changed. The 'security' keyword was mentioned several times, as were public safety, threat, all in the public interest, bla bla.... The fact that several businesses at my home airfield will go belly up doesn't appear to be an issue to them.
The terrorists have indeed won, despite what HM Government would like you to believe..
Hang on, there's a black Vauxhall Omega just pulling up outside
Despite the padded out 2 pages, my own take on that letter is there's absolutely no chance of anything being changed. The 'security' keyword was mentioned several times, as were public safety, threat, all in the public interest, bla bla.... The fact that several businesses at my home airfield will go belly up doesn't appear to be an issue to them.
The terrorists have indeed won, despite what HM Government would like you to believe..
Hang on, there's a black Vauxhall Omega just pulling up outside
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Chuffer
I think that the people who put this thing together had no idea of the full effects that it would have on the GA industry and have been surprized at the level of objection that has been receved from the GA sector. For the first time that I can remember AOPA, LAA, BGA and others have been united in responce to the airspace restrictions.
The tone of the letter from the Transport minister was one of further talks with GA stake holders and more local arangments. I take this to indicate that airfields will get entry & exit routes that will not be subject to the full restrictions if we push the issue a little harder.
Having got the Transport Minister to think for a second time on the issue we cant afford to not send in the best man for the job, Lord Stevens has held high profile security jobs (including head of the Met Police) so another letter to your MP asking that Lord Stevens should meet with the Minister for Transport on the basis that he is the man best placed to give a balanced opinion on the subject would add further pressure for more talks.
The tone of the letter from the Transport minister was one of further talks with GA stake holders and more local arangments. I take this to indicate that airfields will get entry & exit routes that will not be subject to the full restrictions if we push the issue a little harder.
Having got the Transport Minister to think for a second time on the issue we cant afford to not send in the best man for the job, Lord Stevens has held high profile security jobs (including head of the Met Police) so another letter to your MP asking that Lord Stevens should meet with the Minister for Transport on the basis that he is the man best placed to give a balanced opinion on the subject would add further pressure for more talks.
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I think they did know and they really don't care either.
The security services for quite a while have not liked the freedoms available to private pilots and the lack of control they have over them.
And to be honest although I don't like to say it, I can understand why.
The security services for quite a while have not liked the freedoms available to private pilots and the lack of control they have over them.
And to be honest although I don't like to say it, I can understand why.