When would you wrest control?
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 4,631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
When would you wrest control?
Another thread prompted this one, and for a change, I cant recall it having been done before.
So the question is this; you are an instructor, you are the non flying pilot in a multi crew enviroment or you are just another pilot that happens to be sitting in the right seat (for you heli guys and girls) or left seat with a good friend when you decide you really dont like what is happening.
Perhaps there is time (or perhaps not) to draw the pilots attention to the developing situation. If there is, for whatever reason, the handling pilot seems intent on doing nothing.
At what point, and in what circusmtances, in the cycle would you feel you had no alternative but to take control?
How would you react if you were the handling pilot?
Have you been in that situation either as the handling or non handling pilot.
So the question is this; you are an instructor, you are the non flying pilot in a multi crew enviroment or you are just another pilot that happens to be sitting in the right seat (for you heli guys and girls) or left seat with a good friend when you decide you really dont like what is happening.
Perhaps there is time (or perhaps not) to draw the pilots attention to the developing situation. If there is, for whatever reason, the handling pilot seems intent on doing nothing.
At what point, and in what circusmtances, in the cycle would you feel you had no alternative but to take control?
How would you react if you were the handling pilot?
Have you been in that situation either as the handling or non handling pilot.
Last edited by Fuji Abound; 19th Jan 2011 at 15:48.
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You mean when would you wrest control away? 
Never happened to me, but I would do it in case of imminent danger, I guess.
Presumably proper instructors receive some training on this?
Never happened to me, but I would do it in case of imminent danger, I guess.
Presumably proper instructors receive some training on this?
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Betwixt and between
Posts: 666
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As an FO I would take control when when doing nothing would result in an incident. Feeling merely uncomfortable is not enough for me to consider taking over, at that point I would just utilise a standard assertiveness model. So far I have only got as far as using emergency language, in my case "you have to go around now" where he persisted with descending below MDA in IMC.
I have had control taken from me, at the time a difficult crosswind landing at night in drizzle and mist with extremely bright edge lights and no centre lights. I was lined up to touch down well to the right, too far, and the Capt just calmly said, "I have control", no drama.
I have had control taken from me, at the time a difficult crosswind landing at night in drizzle and mist with extremely bright edge lights and no centre lights. I was lined up to touch down well to the right, too far, and the Capt just calmly said, "I have control", no drama.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 4,598
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Never been in that situation but I have been in a reverse situation.
I was doing a clubcheck, we finished the PFLs and other required elements so we were just fooling around a bit. I was doing a spin (I'm aeros qualified and current, and the aircraft is cleared for spinning) and found I had tremendous difficulty pulling out of the dive. Turned out the (non-aeros) instructor in the RHS had subconsciously gotten hold of the stick and held it tight. Fortunately I was stronger. Lesson for both of us.
I was doing a clubcheck, we finished the PFLs and other required elements so we were just fooling around a bit. I was doing a spin (I'm aeros qualified and current, and the aircraft is cleared for spinning) and found I had tremendous difficulty pulling out of the dive. Turned out the (non-aeros) instructor in the RHS had subconsciously gotten hold of the stick and held it tight. Fortunately I was stronger. Lesson for both of us.
As a beginner microlight pilot, I can only reflect on actions of the more experienced pilot-instructor in the right seat. I do have observed that, the more experienced the instructor, the further he'll let the student pilot go in his errings. This increases the students chances of observing them without help, and that is a great plus.
I also have felt like opposing the pilot when I was a guest in his plane. But given my lack of skills/experience, and the fact that it was HIS plane and HIS fine, I bit my tongue, and prayed nothing should go wrong, and looked pointedly ahead at the horizon - knowing that for my best way to avoid getting sick.
What I have also experienced is instructors/plane owners demonstrating their skills and/or the capacities of their planes, bringing me only a scare and no kind of impression, unless negative. But that was far less hard, I only had to wait for it to be over. The one who beautifully avoided this pitfall was the very nice chap who gave me a demo flight in a Europa at Wombleton.
I also have felt like opposing the pilot when I was a guest in his plane. But given my lack of skills/experience, and the fact that it was HIS plane and HIS fine, I bit my tongue, and prayed nothing should go wrong, and looked pointedly ahead at the horizon - knowing that for my best way to avoid getting sick.
What I have also experienced is instructors/plane owners demonstrating their skills and/or the capacities of their planes, bringing me only a scare and no kind of impression, unless negative. But that was far less hard, I only had to wait for it to be over. The one who beautifully avoided this pitfall was the very nice chap who gave me a demo flight in a Europa at Wombleton.
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: London
Posts: 320
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That's a hard one. The very act of taking control from someone who doesn't want to give it up could be the cause of an incident.
I'd do it if I thought I was going to get hurt and doing so wasn't itself going to get me hurt. Then at least I'd be alive to suffer the fallout.
Other than in a formal environment, FI/student or multi crew, what right does any of us have to do such a thing?
To answer your second question... if I were on the receiving end of this behaviour, it would depend who it was. If it was an FI I'd flown with in the past in a training relationship, I'd probably accept it as necessary. Anone else, unless I could agree with their reasoning, I'd report them and have them prosecuted for unlawful interference or whatever was possible, I suppose.
I'd do it if I thought I was going to get hurt and doing so wasn't itself going to get me hurt. Then at least I'd be alive to suffer the fallout.
Other than in a formal environment, FI/student or multi crew, what right does any of us have to do such a thing?
To answer your second question... if I were on the receiving end of this behaviour, it would depend who it was. If it was an FI I'd flown with in the past in a training relationship, I'd probably accept it as necessary. Anone else, unless I could agree with their reasoning, I'd report them and have them prosecuted for unlawful interference or whatever was possible, I suppose.
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London
Posts: 519
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think in the case of a flying instructor, he/ she is the aircraft commander, and no doubt is trained to save the day when appropriate. In the case of a multi-crew environment pressumably the non-flying pilot is adequately trained to gauge the situation correctly and take control when necessary.
In both of these cases the pilots are flying legally and should have had sufficient training to enable them to take appropriate action.
In the case of a private flight it may be that you as a passenger feel the need to take control of a friends aircraft to save the day. However in this case it may well be that you are not able to fly his/ her aircraft because you don't have the required ratings, and you are also not insured.
I suspect if you did take control and there was a positive outcome you would be commended for your actions (if anyobdy ever found out), however if it all went tits-up then you would most certainly take the blame or part of it. What were you doing taking control of an aircraft you weren't adequately licensed/ insured to fly?
People in this day and age like to find someone to blame after all. Obviously it's better to not be dead!
In both of these cases the pilots are flying legally and should have had sufficient training to enable them to take appropriate action.
In the case of a private flight it may be that you as a passenger feel the need to take control of a friends aircraft to save the day. However in this case it may well be that you are not able to fly his/ her aircraft because you don't have the required ratings, and you are also not insured.
I suspect if you did take control and there was a positive outcome you would be commended for your actions (if anyobdy ever found out), however if it all went tits-up then you would most certainly take the blame or part of it. What were you doing taking control of an aircraft you weren't adequately licensed/ insured to fly?
People in this day and age like to find someone to blame after all. Obviously it's better to not be dead!
Last edited by The500man; 19th Jan 2011 at 15:40.
Moderator
My threshold for taking control away from the flying pilot has been either "do I feel my life is now in imminent danger"? Or "We are now at the point where with my experience (as appropriate to the aircraft type, and nature of flight, of course) tells me that I could not make a safe landing out of this, so I am not confident the flying pilot could either".
None of the times I have taken control have resulted in drama of any sort. I have found that the less said after the fact, the better.
A few times, I have recognized an impending bad situation early enough to be able to say, "would you like some help?" or "would you like me to fly for a while?". In every case, this has resulted in either the pilot flying happily letting me take over, or otherwise recognizing that a bad situation could be close, and taking appropriate action.
A few other times, I have left things too long out of blind faith (which went un-rewarded), and it has simply been "I've got it!!!". Every time I have done this, the outcome has been favourable, and every time, I have sensed relief on the part of the pilot - not anger. Again, the less said after the fact, the better....
Then there was the one time, right seat in a Piper Cheyenne to a very experienced pilot, with a load of people in the back... I just grabbed the controls, and rolled the plane away from the hawk right in front of us. My surprized pilot agreed that my dramatic action was appropriate under the circumstances (he never saw the hawk).
Just as often during checkouts, I have had the pilot try to give me control. I remind him/her, that they are doing fine, and keep flying - I don't need to fly. I find that these pilots generally fly quite well, once they reach a level of comfort.
On the other side of things, I have learned that to not have the other pilot take control away form me, any maneuver which is unusual will be well briefed in advance, and changes in conditions noted with verbal comment. Where I plan a maneuver right through (spin, for example), I explain in detail what I am going to do, and state that I will fly the plane right through. With a compotent pilot, and your demonstration of compotence to that pilot's satisfaction, that will probably assure harmony.
I once was flying a very nervous type flying instructor back from a delivery of a second aircraft. I briefed a STOL takeoff, and that was what I did. I guess he was not expecting this, or what was involved. Prior to the moment, when he reached for the controls to take control away from me, (with nothing said in advance), he apparently had not noticed that my plane has the controls removed from the passenger side. His two hands passed right through the cockpit space, which otherwise would be occupied by the control wheel, kept right on going, and firmly grabbed under his seat. By then we were safely airborne, and climbing out. He later complianed to his boss that I was an "idiot" and "flying around below stall speed". His boss asked him: "If Jim was flying around below stall speed, how come the plane did not stall?" Nervous instructor had no answer for that.
Different pilots come with different levels of comfort. We all have to get along, but some pilots should probably approach some types of flying with great caution, and a willingness to surrender control.
None of the times I have taken control have resulted in drama of any sort. I have found that the less said after the fact, the better.
A few times, I have recognized an impending bad situation early enough to be able to say, "would you like some help?" or "would you like me to fly for a while?". In every case, this has resulted in either the pilot flying happily letting me take over, or otherwise recognizing that a bad situation could be close, and taking appropriate action.
A few other times, I have left things too long out of blind faith (which went un-rewarded), and it has simply been "I've got it!!!". Every time I have done this, the outcome has been favourable, and every time, I have sensed relief on the part of the pilot - not anger. Again, the less said after the fact, the better....
Then there was the one time, right seat in a Piper Cheyenne to a very experienced pilot, with a load of people in the back... I just grabbed the controls, and rolled the plane away from the hawk right in front of us. My surprized pilot agreed that my dramatic action was appropriate under the circumstances (he never saw the hawk).
Just as often during checkouts, I have had the pilot try to give me control. I remind him/her, that they are doing fine, and keep flying - I don't need to fly. I find that these pilots generally fly quite well, once they reach a level of comfort.
On the other side of things, I have learned that to not have the other pilot take control away form me, any maneuver which is unusual will be well briefed in advance, and changes in conditions noted with verbal comment. Where I plan a maneuver right through (spin, for example), I explain in detail what I am going to do, and state that I will fly the plane right through. With a compotent pilot, and your demonstration of compotence to that pilot's satisfaction, that will probably assure harmony.
I once was flying a very nervous type flying instructor back from a delivery of a second aircraft. I briefed a STOL takeoff, and that was what I did. I guess he was not expecting this, or what was involved. Prior to the moment, when he reached for the controls to take control away from me, (with nothing said in advance), he apparently had not noticed that my plane has the controls removed from the passenger side. His two hands passed right through the cockpit space, which otherwise would be occupied by the control wheel, kept right on going, and firmly grabbed under his seat. By then we were safely airborne, and climbing out. He later complianed to his boss that I was an "idiot" and "flying around below stall speed". His boss asked him: "If Jim was flying around below stall speed, how come the plane did not stall?" Nervous instructor had no answer for that.
Different pilots come with different levels of comfort. We all have to get along, but some pilots should probably approach some types of flying with great caution, and a willingness to surrender control.
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London
Posts: 519
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pilot DAR with hindsight do you think your STOL briefing was adequate? Or was the nervous type flying instructor jusr a know-it-all-numpty?
I ask because it may be easy to assume a certain level of understanding based on a passengers own flying qualifications or experience.
Your story about the Piper Cheyenne has reminded me of one of my training flights where I was flying a route to prove I could before being allowed to go solo. Pretty much same thing happened, traffic ahead that I didn't see early enough and my instructor briefly took control and banked sharply to avoid it. His actions took me by surprise and I thought afterwards that he wouldn't let me go solo. He did though and I'm still alive!
I ask because it may be easy to assume a certain level of understanding based on a passengers own flying qualifications or experience.
Your story about the Piper Cheyenne has reminded me of one of my training flights where I was flying a route to prove I could before being allowed to go solo. Pretty much same thing happened, traffic ahead that I didn't see early enough and my instructor briefly took control and banked sharply to avoid it. His actions took me by surprise and I thought afterwards that he wouldn't let me go solo. He did though and I'm still alive!
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I like Pilot Dars response. I have to say I have taken control on quite a few occasions but they are always where there is imminent serious danger.
Usually in any crew situation there is one more competant pilot than the other.
Naturally there are times when you can see a situation developing where pointing out the error will suffice but then there are times when you have to act fast.
One situation I had was riding right seat in a Seneca Five with an elderly experienced pilot in the left.
We were attempting a cloud break from IMC OCAS and I was checking the map for terrain heights etc.
I felt a G force stomach wrench and on looking up saw the AH almost vertical. I shouted a warning to level the wings as the VSI was fast on the way down too.
The bemused P1 who had totally confused himself on the AH indications went the wrong way and almost attempted to invert the twin.
I knocked his hands away from the controls levelled the wings and recovered from the dive all IMC on instruments.
So yes there are circumstances where you have to do something fast especially when you realise the pilot has lost the plot or has made a grave error.
I will also add we all make mistakes even the best and the other pilot should always be keeping half an eye on the handling pilot and point out an error before it develops.
Pace
Usually in any crew situation there is one more competant pilot than the other.
Naturally there are times when you can see a situation developing where pointing out the error will suffice but then there are times when you have to act fast.
One situation I had was riding right seat in a Seneca Five with an elderly experienced pilot in the left.
We were attempting a cloud break from IMC OCAS and I was checking the map for terrain heights etc.
I felt a G force stomach wrench and on looking up saw the AH almost vertical. I shouted a warning to level the wings as the VSI was fast on the way down too.
The bemused P1 who had totally confused himself on the AH indications went the wrong way and almost attempted to invert the twin.
I knocked his hands away from the controls levelled the wings and recovered from the dive all IMC on instruments.
So yes there are circumstances where you have to do something fast especially when you realise the pilot has lost the plot or has made a grave error.
I will also add we all make mistakes even the best and the other pilot should always be keeping half an eye on the handling pilot and point out an error before it develops.
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 19th Jan 2011 at 17:21.
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: SoCal
Posts: 1,929
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Had the situation only once in anger - but had it briefed beforehand. Flying PIC with a pilot friend who hadn't flown in a long time and was not current on the model. We did a multi-leg trip and this was to be his landing.
Briefed beforehand that if I didn't like what I saw, it was going to be the standard callout 'my airplane' and I would take over.
Approach went reasonably well, but he was a bit too fast and couldn't handle the x-wind well. We were on our way into the grass when I made the call, took over and landed. No hard feelings, we discussed the techniques involved (or rather, the absence) afterwards. And yes, we're still friends and go flying together!
On a different note, once 'helped' the father of a friend, who has a license but isn't very current, by very gently applying a bit more back pressure on the yoke for the landing from the RHS. Turned an 'arrival' into a greaser. Happiness all around!
Briefed beforehand that if I didn't like what I saw, it was going to be the standard callout 'my airplane' and I would take over.
Approach went reasonably well, but he was a bit too fast and couldn't handle the x-wind well. We were on our way into the grass when I made the call, took over and landed. No hard feelings, we discussed the techniques involved (or rather, the absence) afterwards. And yes, we're still friends and go flying together!
On a different note, once 'helped' the father of a friend, who has a license but isn't very current, by very gently applying a bit more back pressure on the yoke for the landing from the RHS. Turned an 'arrival' into a greaser. Happiness all around!
Moderator
Pilot DAR with hindsight do you think your STOL briefing was adequate? Or was the nervous type flying instructor jusr a know-it-all-numpty?
I have, and continue to, observe that there are a lot of pilots (some with less experience than I) from whom I can still learn something very valuable - as recently as last week, as a matter of fact.
We all come from a slightly varied aviation past, and we all get it less than right, from time to time...
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Norfolk
Posts: 1,966
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In my Pitts, I ofern let people try some maneouvers but the ground brief states that if I donI like it I will tell them and expect to be given control - once (with a Sheffield based Ppruner) he just couldn't hear me and i ended up overpowering him on the stick. You know who you are!!
I regret not doing it on one occasion in someone else's taildragger. He was new to the aeroplane and it was too much aeroplane for him - and ended up on the runway backwards at 60kts with the aeroplane shedding large bits rapidly. Gear leg, propellor, large round engine, etc!
I just knew it was wrong on short final and tried to gently persuade him that we were not lined up, he'd failed to take into account the wind from right to left and the g/s was 50% too high. It was recoverable right to the point when with the port main on the tarmac (and I assume the brake locked on) he hauled the column back into his belly and applied full throttle - we went round like a top - both tyres now squealing over the the engine at full power until the starboard gear snapped off.........
I still have what-ifs over that one!
I regret not doing it on one occasion in someone else's taildragger. He was new to the aeroplane and it was too much aeroplane for him - and ended up on the runway backwards at 60kts with the aeroplane shedding large bits rapidly. Gear leg, propellor, large round engine, etc!
I just knew it was wrong on short final and tried to gently persuade him that we were not lined up, he'd failed to take into account the wind from right to left and the g/s was 50% too high. It was recoverable right to the point when with the port main on the tarmac (and I assume the brake locked on) he hauled the column back into his belly and applied full throttle - we went round like a top - both tyres now squealing over the the engine at full power until the starboard gear snapped off.........
I still have what-ifs over that one!
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: n/a
Posts: 1,425
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Typing on an iPhone so sorry for the spelling errors,
Try PACE for a suggested System...
P for probe, " what altitude we flying at?"
A for alert, " the msa in this area is 2,500 ft and we are in cloud at 1,500"
C for challenge, "bob we are below , there is rising ground ahead.. we are in danger, you have to climb. "
E for emergency action... "I have control"
Try to involve them personally , give them an out, they may be at maximum capacity and have no space to think... Highlight their responsibility to others, hey you may be happy down here but I'm a chicken so can we climb now... Etc
Try PACE for a suggested System...
P for probe, " what altitude we flying at?"
A for alert, " the msa in this area is 2,500 ft and we are in cloud at 1,500"
C for challenge, "bob we are below , there is rising ground ahead.. we are in danger, you have to climb. "
E for emergency action... "I have control"
Try to involve them personally , give them an out, they may be at maximum capacity and have no space to think... Highlight their responsibility to others, hey you may be happy down here but I'm a chicken so can we climb now... Etc
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Daysleeper
Oh for a nice ILS a radar controller and all the delights of a proper airfield with all the charts you could possibly wish for and preferably a nice big chunk of CAS all the way in.
Pace
Oh for a nice ILS a radar controller and all the delights of a proper airfield with all the charts you could possibly wish for
and preferably a nice big chunk of CAS all the way in.Pace
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: UK,Twighlight Zone
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would be very careful about wresting control of an aircraft from the Legal Commander whatever you may think about their flying. Seizing control of an aircraft without the Commanders permission is an act of terrorism and should only be considered in the most extreme of circumstances where life and limb are threatened.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bose
I agree with what you are saying with a Caveat!!! Obviously the further up the ladder you go the more proficient and experienced the Pilots will be.
sadly in Private flying there is a wide spectrum of ability and experience.
I flew with a PPL who was having problems landing a Seneca another of my taking control situations.
Right seat again non instructor! But i do have 3000 hrs in Senecas so know them pretty well.
They need a lot of aft trim as land a Seneca with forward trim flat or on the nose and you will get the famous seneca porpoise.
More violent porpoising until the nose wheel collapses and the aircraft settles on both props.
This PPL started porpoising which then went to violent porpoising no correction! a PPL who was now a passenger . " I have the aircraft" taking control, adding full power and pulling the nose up.
Okay maybe I am acting as a terrorist but better that than explaining why I allowed an aircraft with my experience to end up on its nose with two engines requiring inspection and new props.
Pace
I agree with what you are saying with a Caveat!!! Obviously the further up the ladder you go the more proficient and experienced the Pilots will be.
sadly in Private flying there is a wide spectrum of ability and experience.
I flew with a PPL who was having problems landing a Seneca another of my taking control situations.
Right seat again non instructor! But i do have 3000 hrs in Senecas so know them pretty well.
They need a lot of aft trim as land a Seneca with forward trim flat or on the nose and you will get the famous seneca porpoise.
More violent porpoising until the nose wheel collapses and the aircraft settles on both props.
This PPL started porpoising which then went to violent porpoising no correction! a PPL who was now a passenger . " I have the aircraft" taking control, adding full power and pulling the nose up.
Okay maybe I am acting as a terrorist but better that than explaining why I allowed an aircraft with my experience to end up on its nose with two engines requiring inspection and new props.
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 19th Jan 2011 at 19:02.
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: UK,Twighlight Zone
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would keep it there if I were you. It would only take them to be pissed at you taking control and report you. Far fetched it may seem sat on your computer pontificating but as an examiner I have seen how beligerant people can become when a skill test does not go there way. Put that personality into their own aircraft and you then seize control and you have a very dangerous situation developing.
Also as has been mentioned earlier, you take command and it goes pear shaped, rest assured the can will rest with you.
So as I said, I would leave it to the point where life and limb are threatened and you can defend your position to the hilt. I would also be reporting the incident immediately on landing.
Also as has been mentioned earlier, you take command and it goes pear shaped, rest assured the can will rest with you.
So as I said, I would leave it to the point where life and limb are threatened and you can defend your position to the hilt. I would also be reporting the incident immediately on landing.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Also as has been mentioned earlier, you take command and it goes pear shaped, rest assured the can will rest with you.
What is new?
I am afraid that is a fact of life and determines a true commander. I fly as a Captain in a multi crew invironment. The legs the first officer flies I remind him that any cockups and its not him that takes the can its me!!! So you get used to that possibility of taking the can.Flying with a PPL sorry but if I see a disaster in the making I am quite happy to take the can on rectifying the situation but I am used to that!
Better taking the can rather than a barrel.
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 19th Jan 2011 at 19:48.