When would you wrest control?

[Mark1234]

On this occation, I find myself firmly in Bose's camp. I'm also inclined to think that descents below DH in IFR conditions have rather little to do with the normal private pilot experience - yes, I'm sure some do, and I'm lead to believe that single pilot IFR is one of the most intense things you can do, therefore presumably far more likely to suffer from fixation, and loosing the big picture. Presumably that's why single pilot ops in citations are more risky - it's a lot of complexity, and a lot of aeroplane.

Fuji - if you felt I misrepresented you, sorry, that wasn't my intention.

I entirely encourage anyone flying with me to input, I will take hints, I'm not proud. What you percieve as dangerous might not be. If you tell me it's bothering you, I'll try to avoid doing so, but if I am PIC, and it is not a comittee. You may equally be the person that percipitates an accident - what makes you think your judgement is necessarily superior? (Of course, if you/I am flying with an instructor, he/she is PIC, and can pull rank whenever they want. That's what they're there for).

Maybe it's a matter of terminology, but it seems to me that a lot of the examples I read here are a matter of taking control and assisting, and not of 'wresting' control from an uncooperative pilot. I don't think I ever suggested that was inappropriate.

[blagger]

It should also be remembered that it should only be rarely that Instructors take control off the student in an 'emergency' type fashion - if things get to that stage it's generally only on take-off or landing, and there is normally plenty of opportunities leading up to that stage where the situation can be managed such that it doesn't become a drama.

[S-Works]

Bose written on I phone. I am sure you are the type of pilot who would never need taking over but I am amazed that other than with students you have never as a very experienced pilot had to do so with a lesser pilot.
Btw I would be happy to land your Dornier
As for the Seneca porpoise you obviously have never experienced it. The worst thing you can do is stamp on the brakes as the bucking gets worse and self perpetuating until the nose collapses. That pilot did exactly that frozen at the controls a passenger to an out of control aircraft.
There is only one way out and I have no hesitation in taking control and saving the aircraft.
As for commercial ops there are scores of examples the Ryanair 737 details I posted here.

Pace

Firstly the Ryanair incident does not tie with the theme of the thread.

You know what, PM me, I will arrange for you to attempt to land the Dornier. I shall video it and we can share it here via YouTube.

I have experienced many cases of mishandling the Seneca, you tend to come across them as ME Instructor and Examiner. Notwithstanding this my comment still stands from earlier.

I can also say that it I have never 'wrested' control from a student either. teaching is about collaboration. We follow through and assist. Wresting control does nothing to foster a learning environment.

[englishal]

I'll have a go at landing the Dornier. In the second world war, ladies used to ferry various aeroplanes around and may be given command of a bomber having never flown one before. They'd read the relevant pages before landing....so yes please, I'll have a go, and you can film it if you like

But seriously, if I at any time felt my life was in danger I'd do something about it and not just sit there and hope for the best. Luckily someone did that for me in a Seneca when I really ballsed up a landing when I was learning to fly it

Bose, out of interest, do you have your FI ratings now or are you still a class rating instructor / examiner? I would imagine there is a difference in teaching inital instruction and those who already hold a ticket of some sort....which is why I guess a CRI/CRE can instruct on a PPL.

[S-Works]

Blimey, a bit arrogant thinking you know all about me Al.

I hold an FI which has been unrestricted for a number of years. I also hold an FE as well as CRE. I am also authorised to test for Type Ratings in Single Pilot Aeroplanes if that helps you. Kind of required to be employed Head of Training at a JAA UK FTO/TRTO......

I'll have a go at landing the Dornier

Do you know how many vastly more experienced pilots than you have thought they could land it and had the smile wiped off their faces?

You can teach on a PPL with a CRI but to be any type of flight Examiner requires a CPL by the way.

[Pilot DAR]

Bose,

I trust that your Dornier is FAR 25 compliant, and, in particular meets the requirements of FAR 25.125, Landing, which says, in part:

(5) The landings may not require exceptional piloting skill or alertness.

[MIKECR]

What on earth kind of Dornier is this that's such a handful to land?? Genuine question.... 228? 328??

[MIKECR]

Sorry wasnt really interested in any willy wavin. Was genuinely curious about the Dornier. I have a coule of mates fly the 328 TP with Scot Air/Cityjet, and an ex colleague who now flies a 228 on various contracts such as maritime patrol, reconnaisance etc. Never heard any of them suggest it was a handful to land. On the contrary,the 328 was described as a dream to fly...fast as well, at 335kts TAS.

[SNS3Guppy]

Please explain exactly how you plan on putting down several tonnes of turboprop on your own?

Oh, please.

Exactly the same way as a Cessna 172, which is surprisingly nearly identical to the way one lands a C-130, and a whole lot like the way one lands a 747. The view from the cockpit changes a little, but it's not exactly rocket science.

What are you flying...Dornier 128, perhaps? Ten thousand gross takeoff or so, four hundred hp motors? Slower than a King Air, less power? A dreaded tailwheel?

None of that is really relevant to the question of taking control if the situation warrants, however. Rest assured that if assuming control is necessary, everything else pales by comparison, and is relatively unimportant.

Nobody is talking about a situation in which someone simply enters into a normal, routine flight situation, and elects to take control simply for the hell of it.

Do you know how many vastly more experienced pilots than you have thought they could land it and had the smile wiped off their faces?

I'd be delighted to have you wipe the smile off my face. It might not be as easy as you think, of course, because given the chance, you'd find I'll be grinning like a loon.

You're welcome of course, and expected, to take control at anytime you deem necessary. It's expected, you see.

I can also say that it I have never 'wrested' control from a student either.

I surely have.

If you can show me occurrences from this century that warrant the discussion then fair enough.

I've already shown you numerous examples. People whine that a professional cockpit doesn't relate, so I include light airplane cockpits, private situations, student situations, passenger situations, you name it...still not happy.

The truth is that you'll argue the point and dismiss every example, holding up the unfathomable and mysterious Dornier as the true test, for whatever it's worth, and will disregard any evidence to the contrary. Whatever floats your boat.

The truth is that situations in which a pilot may need to intervene are very possible in a private, light airplane environment, every bit as much as complex advanced cockpit environments, and most certainly the need may arise in a single pilot cockpit as much as a crew environment. I've experienced both, and have cited examples. Amazingly, these didn't take place hundreds of years ago. Go figure.

What I was trying to point out with the quote if the dictionary terms is there is a difference between offering assistance and even being given control as a result of the offer and seizing or wresting control from the lawful commander.......

When it comes to taking control, it's a rubber-meets-the-road occasion. The difference isn't semantics, and it isn't an issue of who is "lawful" or not. It's not a law issue. It's a safety of flight issue, and it's a matter of live-man vs. dead-man. If something isn't going right, say something. If that doesn't do it, do something. After that, hope for someone nice to care for your next of kin. Game over.

Then again, as we've shown, control may be the passenger who experiences a heart attack and collapses into the controls. Not really a terrorist act, but a struggle to take controls none the less (ever tried to fly with an unconscious person slumped into the controls, while removing that person single pilot, communicating, navigating, and aviating (not necessarily in that order)? I have. You could, too. It does happen. It may be the 300 lb. quiet suicide patient in the right seat, unbeknownst to you, that chooses this moment, here, now, in cruise, or on approach, to take control. Wresting control may be from a "lawful commander," a passenger, an unconscious person, another pilot, a second in command, or whatever else one cares to imagine. One had better be prepared to do so, without hesitation, and had better be able to recognize that moment when it arrives.

When it's time to take control, who really cares what the dictionary has to say on the matter. The theoretical part of the flight is over, and it's time to wake up to reality. If you don't, you may never wake up.

Conversely, many times taking control may be a temporary act, a stabilizing event. This you dismiss, but it's a fact of life and shouldn't be denied. Just like the fact that many engine failures are actually partial-power failures, rather than catastrophic losses, many situations involving taking control aren't a full blown mutiny, aren't a complete takeover. One may only intervene, in many cases, as far as necessary.

I once arrived at a busy terminal area to find the destination suddenly closed, and the alternate closed. We were given a hold. I advised my fellow pilot that we had fuel for two turns in the hold, and we'd need to go elsewhere. When we were given an expect-further-clearance (EFC) time of more than a half-hour, my cohort accepted it from ATC. I immediately called back and told ATC we could take two turns, and would be moving on. Two turns later in the hold, ATC advised 45 more minutes of holding. My buddy took it in stride, and accepted the new delay. I immediately keyed the mic and advised ATC that we were minimum fuel and needed go somewhere now. We were given direct to the field and were first for landing.

This was a case of one pilot being willing to compromise his fuel and let it dwindle, and one who took charge, and made the call. Was this a hostile takeover? No, but it was unequivocal, and an intervention none the less.

When faced with a situation during an approach at which the approach lights do not appear at minimums, I know many pilots who are willing to press just a little farther. Wait just a little longer, Fudge those minimums. I'm quite willing to key the mic and advise ATC that we're going missed approach, making the decision at that point. The fact is that if either pilot calls for a go-around, it shouldn't be debated; it should be executed. If one is going below minimums and the missed is called out, it needs to be executed.

Consider it from a slightly different perspective. I have EGPWS on board, which for those who aren't familiar, is a terrain avoidance system. It uses a map database of obstacles and terrain in concert with radar altimetry and a computer to provide advance warnings of various unsafe situations. If we are faced with an aural warning "Pull up! Pull up!", accompanied by large red letters across our Attitude Display Indicator saying the same thing, we don't have any option to continue. We do as we're directed immediately, initiating a recovery maneuver. We don't disregard the call, and we are forced to take action, no matter how sure we are that we're right.

When this occurs, it doesn't happen during a moment of incapacitation. It's not during a moment of catatonic behavior. It may be during a routine, normal approach, insofar as the crew is concerned.

Last night I experienced a Resolution Advisory on a Traffic Collision Avoidance Situation. We were where we were supposed to be, tracking the navigation we had been assigned, at the altitude to which we were cleared, flying level. Another aircraft descended into us and presented a collision hazard. This is a rare event, but I immediately did as I was directed by the TCAS equipment, disconnecting the autopilot and manually descending at the rate prescribed. By following the Resolution Advisory, we passed the other traffic with a thousand feet of separation. We would not have had that separation, otherwise and would have been in a very unsafe condition.

Is there much difference between the TCAS equipment ordering me to "Descend! Descend!" and another person in the cockpit ordering me to "Descend!" or "Pull Up!" or "Go Around!" No. Whether it's automated equipment intervening, or another person, the semantics aren't important. Only safety.

During a thunderstorm penetration in a Learjet 35A, I experienced a violent upset. It broke headsets I had loaned to sensor operators seated in back. It stripped components out of my laptop frame, inside it's padded container in the baggage area. For a moment, all wind noise around the cockpit seemed to stop. Even belted in tightly, my head bounced off the side of the cockpit. I got a stick shaker, and then a pusher.

A pusher is a device which takes control away from me. At first the shaker goes off, which is a stall warning. Anyone who has flown a light airplane with a stall warning understands the horn, or light or other device that alerts the pilot to an excessive angle of attack. They will understand the buffet, too. In the learjet, a box with an offset weight shakes the control column during an impending stall. If the stall progresses into a greater angle of attack, a pusher yanks the stick out of the pilots hands and pushes the control column forward to reduce angle of attack. That's what happened to us.

While that was occurring, I continued the roll to unload the wings and let the nose fall through, applied firewall thrust minus an inch, and recovered from the upset. As soon as the stall was broken, the airplane returned control to me. The pusher doesn't retain control; it's only there to adjust the bad situation and apply an immediate corrective action. It did exactly as it was supposed to do, and yes, it did wrest control from my hands. Is this really so different form a person performing the same action? Not in the least, and certainly not when the issue is safety of flight...which is the reason we may be faced with wresting control from someone, or some thing.

Again conversely, I've also been in situations involving a runaway autopilot. In these events, the autopilot rapidly ran the airplane nose up or nose down, or took other actions that required pilot intervention. Is there really any difference between taking control from the autopilot when it screws up, to taking control from another pilot? No. None. Whomever might be assigned as the "lawful commander" is at that time entirely irrelevant.

The need to take control doesn't happen often, but it's something one should be prepared to do all the time, any time, and to do so without hesitation. Advising folks that this constitutes an act of air piracy or terrorism, or that they're not going to be able to handle the airplane after the fact, is dangerous advice, indeed. You should probably stop.

[Pace]

You know what, PM me, I will arrange for you to attempt to land the Dornier. I shall video it and we can share it here via YouTube.

Bose

I will gladly take you up on that challenge it sounds like fun and I cannot resist a challenge will PM you but will also warn you that I have never landed any aircraft badly ( Even a Seneca in 40kts 90 degree crosswind) so the Dornier will have to be the first and happy for it to go on YouTube.

Do you expect me to do it off a loop with both engines shut down and a glass of the finest champagne on top of the panel? I am not that good

Might even do an exchange and see how you get on with the citation ? a baby in comparison I am sure to the Dreaded Dornier

Take care
Looking forward to it

Pace

[MIKECR]

Sorry...still left guessing what this beast of a Dornier is? Why's it so difficult to land? Nothing remotely on UK CAA database that resembles a single Dornier with a TP up front.

[Pilot DAR]

So, back to the subject of the original post (not that Dorniers don't intrest me, but another time....)

On the obverse of the topic... I was once receiving familiarization from a very compotent water pilot. Just after my reasonably good landing, while still moving about 60 kts, he said "let go". I looked over to make sure he did have control (not that I had any reason to doubt him). As I looked over, he again said "let go", and slapped my wrist. So rather stunned at this request, I complied. The problem was that aside from lifting his hand, to slap my wrist, his hands were flat on his lap!

With no one commanding the pitch or roll of the aircraft, and still moving quickly across the water, it behaved every bit as well as I could have flown it.

Prior to that, you could not have convinced me to let go control of an aircraft on the step on the water. Control was taken from me by gentle force, and it worked out fine!

That said, this is not my instruction to seaplane pilots to let go of the controls while moving on the water! Fly the plane all the time!

[Pace]

Pilot Dar

they all fly fine if left to their own devices properly trimmed! Its the pilots who screw them up

Pace

[MIKECR]

Only Dornier TP's I can seem to find flying in UK(apart from the 228/328 series flying with the airlines) would appear to be the old DO 28/128 types flying mad meat bombing parachustists around. Whats the vice with these old taildraggers thats such a challenge to land? A genuinely interested question....as i've flown lots of tailwheel hours, as well as TP's.

[SNS3Guppy]

Tradition counsel places a brick, a duck, a cat, and a dog in the cockpit, for safety.

The brick is there if the pilot loses his car keys. When lost at altitude and unsure which way is up, toss out the car keys. Lacking the keys toss the brick. Follow it down; it should head toward earth. The duck loves wet weather. When truly in doubt, toss out the duck and follow that. It does much better than you do.

If you've used up your keys, the brick, and the duck, toss up the cat (don't toss it out; they hate water). The cat always lands on it's feet. It if happens to land on the ceiling, then you're probably inverted. Fix that first. This works best with declawed cats that don't stick to the ceiling. Or to you.

The dog is there to bite the pilot if he tries to touch anything.

[Tinstaafl]

Boxe-X,

Are you utterly immune from ever making a mistake or from being so task focused that other important issues aren't noticed? Would you rather crash with that mistake or, if someone happened to be in the seat next to you and realised such a situation was occuring, have them take action to prevent or correct the problem?

When I'm flying I have no qualms about someone else bringing a safety or legal issue to my attention. Even better if I fail to correct the problem if they make sure it's done. I admit it - I'm not immune from screwing up. Of course a lot of times someone else's concern isn't safety of flight related but a brief discussion soon takes care of that.

[SNS3Guppy]

When I'm flying I have no qualms about someone else bringing a safety or legal issue to my attention.

Ain't that the truth. Unless one is open to input from anyone and everyone during the performance of one's duties, one may very well shut out the single voice that saves the day.

In a crew cockpit takeoff safety briefing, the single most important part of the briefing comes at the end, right after the briefer (pilot flying) says "any questions?"

He listens.

Same goes for briefing passengers. Doors, seatbelts, oxygen, inflight snacks, parachutes, potty...should end in any questions? Then listen. Be open to feedback for that operation, by those intimately involved (and whose lives depend on it's successful conclusion).

Never forget that while the PIC may hold the legal responsibility for the safe outcome of the flight, everybody on board is betting their lives on the same thing.

[englishal]

Blimey, a bit arrogant thinking you know all about me Al.

Sorry, must have picked that up from Pproooon I thought in the past you posted that you were CRI with PPL,and I know you can become CRE even with a foreign (FAA) CPL but JAA PPL so I assumed....

Still, the Dornier, yep I would love to have a go at it. I found landing the B200 pretty easy, same as any other plane really, just keep the speeds right, though it doesn't have a tail wheel of course. Without reading the Dornier POH I reckon I'd set up a constant attitude on approach, similar to a seaplane glassy water landing, and just fly the thing into the ground for a 3 pointer and see what happens...And I'd be more than happy for you to take control to save the day if I mess it up

(PS I wouldn't say the Christen Eagle is a girly plane, the idea of landing one of those on a short runway is quite scary if you ask me....)...

[Fuji Abound]

I will gladly take you up on that challenge it sounds like fun and I cannot resist a challenge

and

Still, the Dornier, yep I would love to have a go at it.

and

Still waiting for the date your comin down to EGHS

Bose

I think you laid down the challenge.

You have three good offers and it would make for a good youtube film.

Now come on, you going to put up .. .. .. ?

I will even chip in with the costs.

[S-Works]

Are you utterly immune from ever making a mistake or from being so task focused that other important issues aren't noticed? Would you rather crash with that mistake or, if someone happened to be in the seat next to you and realised such a situation was occuring, have them take action to prevent or correct the problem?

This is not about me, although there a few that seem to want to make it so.

I am merely questioning the legality of a PASSENGER SEIZING control of an aircraft because they think they know better than the pilot. I question the legality of this.

When I'm flying I have no qualms about someone else bringing a safety or legal issue to my attention. Even better if I fail to correct the problem if they make sure it's done.

That is very different from WRESTING control of the aircraft. I see nothing wrong with a pilot giving advice to another pilot. I have issue with command of the aircraft being seized with the caveat as I said earlier unless it is absolutely in the need to save life and then I would expect to be having a conversation on the ground with higher authority about it.

If the pumped egos on here think they know better and think its acceptable for them to WREST control of an aircraft from the legal commander then so be it.

I don't think it is legal, I think it has way to many ramifications and making personal insults and trying to attack peoples credability in order to bully them into your way of thinking is nothing less than I expect from PPrune.

To answer the question on the Dorniers, they are DO28 Twin Turboprops powered by Walther G92 engines. They are tailwheel and and used around the world for everything from Parachute dropping to Cargo and Air Taxi. A combination of the turbine handling and tailwheel make them difficult to handle on the ground as well as take off and landing. Even pilots with a lot of tailwheel experience take considerable training to be able to handle them. In the scenarios given in this thread the only thing that would happen if someone WRESTED control of one is that we would go from possible disaster to certain disaster as I am sure despite the ego driven skygods assurances none of them could land it from cold.

Fuji and Pace, I will arrange with you via PM as I think it would make an interesting human factors experiment. Al I am sorry but you don't get to question someones integrity and then come and play.