AOPA Aerobatics Course
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I found a list on the aopa site (http://www.aopa.co.uk/), but it doesn't seem very extensive - I had supposed there would be more options available. Also, I'd rather learn in a more powerful a/c (a Yak for instance). Does anyone know anyone who can help?
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LLC - If you want a Yak, try anglia flight, www.anglia-flight.com or call on 01603 412 888. Otherwise Dawn Patrol do the course in an Extra 300L. Personally, I want to do it in something underpowered and unforgiving - the extra bears little relation to anything a poor PPL like me will ever get my hands on! I also called Pilot Flight Training at Oxford who do it on a slingsby. Thanks for the AOPA link though, will be busy calling them all tomorrow!!!
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Alan Cassidy offers aeros training in a Pitts at White Waltham and is indeed highly regarded. A mate of mine is training with him at present and is very impressed. There's also aeros training available at Old Sarum and, I believe, Compton Abbas. For both Rightstuff and Loglickychops, might I suggest a Cap 10? Not as ballistic as a Pitts or Extra, much more grunty than a Citabria, a bit more flingable than a Slingsby, less mega-donked than a Yak but less thirsty, and tail wheeled to boot. Email me at pprune mail if interested.
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Flying Club Conington (Just to the south of Peterborough) do the course on a Cessna 152 Aerobat. If money is a factor, then you'll find the 8 hours or so a lot cheaper, plus the club has plenty of people who compete.
The aircraft itself (G-BFKF from memory) often shows up at competitions. If you ask Gavin nicely, he often lets people take the aircraft away for a weekend's competition.
www.flying-club-conington.co.uk
Call 01487-834161 and ask for Gavin Forrest, the CFI.
TW
The aircraft itself (G-BFKF from memory) often shows up at competitions. If you ask Gavin nicely, he often lets people take the aircraft away for a weekend's competition.
www.flying-club-conington.co.uk
Call 01487-834161 and ask for Gavin Forrest, the CFI.
TW
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If you want to do aeros in a Yak, go to Gennady Elfimov at Skytrace http://www.skytrace.co.uk (Halfpenny Green or what should now be called Wolverhampton Business Airport). You could also try Jez Hopkinson at Compton Abbas http://www.aerobatics.co.uk although I'm not sure he's still doing the AOPA course. Heard Dawnpatrol are also pretty good in the Extra 300L.
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Anglia Flight can also offer aeros training in an S2A Pitts.
This aircraft has a two place bubble canopy so the chap in the front seat (which is normally open) can be just as comfortable as the chap in the rear.
Nice aeroplane, have flown it many times.
Dale at Anglia is IMHO a fine instructor.
Stik
This aircraft has a two place bubble canopy so the chap in the front seat (which is normally open) can be just as comfortable as the chap in the rear.
Nice aeroplane, have flown it many times.
Dale at Anglia is IMHO a fine instructor.
Stik
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I think there is a list of aerobtaic instructors on the British Aerobatic Association web site (WWW.aerobtaics.org.uk) sorry don't know how to do the hyperlinkythingy.
Who ever you go to, speak to other people first as there are aerobatic instructors and there are aerobatic instructors. My local offer Advanced Aerobatic instruction in their ads but imho the instructor would struggle at beginners!
Alan Cassidy is top man tho and member of the UK Unlimited AErobatic team. Get someone who can do it not just read a book about it.
Who ever you go to, speak to other people first as there are aerobatic instructors and there are aerobatic instructors. My local offer Advanced Aerobatic instruction in their ads but imho the instructor would struggle at beginners!
Alan Cassidy is top man tho and member of the UK Unlimited AErobatic team. Get someone who can do it not just read a book about it.
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Thanks for all the help guys - really appreciated. I intended to do the course with Jez, but he is no longer doing it - he recommended Alan Cassidy. I'll definitely give him a call. While this topic is alive - what is the consensus on training in, say, a pitts and then hopping in a 152 to do aeros? Is it at all realistic to work backwards like this?
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I don't know about realistic, but it seems a bit pointless. When you have that stupid Pitts Grin the we all had when we get in th eearly Pitts fliying sorties, you will not want to go to a 152. After many hours in a Pitts I did some aeros in a "normal" aerobatic type... scared the s*** out of me as I was used to power on demand. Much harder to do well. Those people that can do good aeros in a 152 show imense skill, but why make it hard. A Pitts is like an arial motor bike, point it were you want to go and it goes. Bang for your buck there is no better thing.
Ps I might be a bit biased as I own one.
Ps I might be a bit biased as I own one.
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You can also try the Robin at Vectair, Goodwood, 160 horse so a reasonable amount of power and a nice handling aircraft, not in the Pitts league but then not TOO expensive.
If you do want anything like decent aeros, one thing I WOULD recommend is give the C150 a MISS.
If you do want anything like decent aeros, one thing I WOULD recommend is give the C150 a MISS.
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Right Stuff,
I can only speak from the 152 point of view seeing as I've never even sat in anything fancy like a Pitts. One day, huh?
When I decided to do the AOPA Cert, I realised that, although I could just about afford to do the course in something nice like a Pitts, it would be unlikely that I could then continue to pay for the many of subsequent hours required to practice a competition sequence. After a brief cloth-cutting session, it was the 152 for me.
While a 152 is obviously at a HUGE disadvantage to a Pitts or whatever, it doesn't mean that you can't get a lot of fulfilment out of one. Believe me, it's a blast. It's also a challenge seeing as there's an inconvenient absence of an inverted fuel system, (the engine goes a bit quiet when upside down), so speed control is crucial.
While many pilots are dubious about using a 152 as an competition mount, they soon change their minds when they see someone like Markus Fox walk off with a 1st place at UK Standard level competition: Demon pilot. I guess the trick is to know the 152 well enough to be able to fly good aeros in spite of its deficiencies. Which I can't. Bugger.
TW
I can only speak from the 152 point of view seeing as I've never even sat in anything fancy like a Pitts. One day, huh?
When I decided to do the AOPA Cert, I realised that, although I could just about afford to do the course in something nice like a Pitts, it would be unlikely that I could then continue to pay for the many of subsequent hours required to practice a competition sequence. After a brief cloth-cutting session, it was the 152 for me.
While a 152 is obviously at a HUGE disadvantage to a Pitts or whatever, it doesn't mean that you can't get a lot of fulfilment out of one. Believe me, it's a blast. It's also a challenge seeing as there's an inconvenient absence of an inverted fuel system, (the engine goes a bit quiet when upside down), so speed control is crucial.
While many pilots are dubious about using a 152 as an competition mount, they soon change their minds when they see someone like Markus Fox walk off with a 1st place at UK Standard level competition: Demon pilot. I guess the trick is to know the 152 well enough to be able to fly good aeros in spite of its deficiencies. Which I can't. Bugger.
TW
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I agree entirely with Flickoff (which in itself must be a first!!)
Doing aeros in a Tiger or a Stampe is infinitely more difficult than in a Pitts. Doing aeros in a C152A is even more difficult. I have met Marcus and seen him fly, which I can attest that that he does very nicely!
I have flown the Steen Skybolt, Chippie, CAP10B, Harvard, various YAKs, Citabrias,etc and all Pitts flavours (save the S2C). I have not flown any of the esoteric plastic fantastic Extras or CAPs.
Nothing so far compares to the Pitts.
I consider myself an aerobatic "plodder" hardly a Sky-God, though I have friends who are! The Pitts (and like Flick, I am biased for the same reason) really does it for me. The single seater S1S/T far outperforms the S2A and although the fixed pitch S1S is not as fast as an S2B (260hp) is as equally capable aerobatically.
The good thing is - is that they fly straight and level, too. So that x-country that will let you see your mates is no problem, either.
Yesterday - I delivered an S2A and returned in an Aerobat. I guess I slow-rolled the Pitts a dozen times just for the fun of it on my 10 min transit. On the return leg in the Aerobat, S&L the whole way.
Today - I returned the Aerobat. I tried one loopy/rolly thing that didn't remotely resemble a conventional barrel roll and put me off anything but S&L!!
I love my Pitts Special!
Every family should have one!!
Stik
edited for accuracy!
[This message has been edited by stiknruda (edited 07 June 2001).]
Doing aeros in a Tiger or a Stampe is infinitely more difficult than in a Pitts. Doing aeros in a C152A is even more difficult. I have met Marcus and seen him fly, which I can attest that that he does very nicely!
I have flown the Steen Skybolt, Chippie, CAP10B, Harvard, various YAKs, Citabrias,etc and all Pitts flavours (save the S2C). I have not flown any of the esoteric plastic fantastic Extras or CAPs.
Nothing so far compares to the Pitts.
I consider myself an aerobatic "plodder" hardly a Sky-God, though I have friends who are! The Pitts (and like Flick, I am biased for the same reason) really does it for me. The single seater S1S/T far outperforms the S2A and although the fixed pitch S1S is not as fast as an S2B (260hp) is as equally capable aerobatically.
The good thing is - is that they fly straight and level, too. So that x-country that will let you see your mates is no problem, either.
Yesterday - I delivered an S2A and returned in an Aerobat. I guess I slow-rolled the Pitts a dozen times just for the fun of it on my 10 min transit. On the return leg in the Aerobat, S&L the whole way.
Today - I returned the Aerobat. I tried one loopy/rolly thing that didn't remotely resemble a conventional barrel roll and put me off anything but S&L!!
I love my Pitts Special!
Every family should have one!!
Stik
edited for accuracy!
[This message has been edited by stiknruda (edited 07 June 2001).]
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Sorry Tricky but I think if you try the aerobatic Robins or the Pup150 you will find a much better aircraft for aeros at about thesame price, all I can say about those who do well in comps in a c150 is WHY, surely they would do much better in one of the others.
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I can't offer much comparative experience (have tried Bulldog, Pup, Chippie, Slingsby, Cap). I'm waiting for a friend to get a Pitts share so that I can swap Pitts/Cap rides with him (hurry up JS: you know who you are). I agree, however, that if you're looking for cheaper aeros, a Pup 150 is worth a look. I don't know from Cessnas, (last time I was in a a C150/152 was as a spotty teenage oik doing a dogsbody job at a local flying school in the 70s, and there was no upside down stuff involved in the infrequent freebie flights provided by the owner - his idea of excitement was to say "clear takeoff G xx" to Birmingham Tower, open the throttle, close his eyes, take his hands off and say "you do the bugger") but the Pup's extra bit of power can't go amiss. Also, isn't there a risk of pulling to one side on the yoke when under high G, which isn't a problem with a stick? Pardon me if this is aviation myth number 997.
NB this is not intended as a dig at Cessnas or those who fly them, still less those who win competitions in them. Hats off to those who can perform precise aeros in low powered aircraft. It's doubtless only my crippling lack of ability which makes me want lots of reassuring noisiness going on upfront whilst I hamfistedly bodge my way through wonky loops and staggering rolls.
[This message has been edited by FNG (edited 08 June 2001).]
NB this is not intended as a dig at Cessnas or those who fly them, still less those who win competitions in them. Hats off to those who can perform precise aeros in low powered aircraft. It's doubtless only my crippling lack of ability which makes me want lots of reassuring noisiness going on upfront whilst I hamfistedly bodge my way through wonky loops and staggering rolls.
[This message has been edited by FNG (edited 08 June 2001).]
Guest
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Hi Everyone, Great topic, 'Cause I too am interested in learning some aerobatics. Experience wise, Ive had my PPL under a year and have 75 odd hours total time.
With regard to what others have said here, Ive never flown a tailwheel aircraft before, so is it best to learn on something like a Robin or Slingsby type, or go straight to the likes of a CAP-10 or Pitts? Me thinks a CAP-10/Pitts would be alot more expensive.
Also, If you guys/gals out there think something with big grunt is best, would you suggest a tailwheel conversion course first, or just bite the bullit and go straight into it?
Thanks to everyone for all the great info so far.
With regard to what others have said here, Ive never flown a tailwheel aircraft before, so is it best to learn on something like a Robin or Slingsby type, or go straight to the likes of a CAP-10 or Pitts? Me thinks a CAP-10/Pitts would be alot more expensive.
Also, If you guys/gals out there think something with big grunt is best, would you suggest a tailwheel conversion course first, or just bite the bullit and go straight into it?
Thanks to everyone for all the great info so far.
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The Robin or Slingsby are good aircraft to start on and will keep the cost down, as they are harder to fly basic aeros you tend to develop good technique (though IMHO the C150 takes this principle TOO far). If you go for CAP10/Pitts you will probably combine the conversion with starting the aeros - at least that is how I would do it (ie. 1 hr lesson with 15-20 mins off aeros and the rest on the other conversion work). You will probably find that 20-30 mins is more than enough aeros for one session, especially at the beginning
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Skydriller, although I'm now a sad tailwheel geek, I suppose that the answer is a matter of personal choice/what's available in your area/how much you want to spend. I assume that most competition aeros machines have tailwheels because of the lower weight/drag in flight, but of course there's still plenty of aerobatic jollies to be had in nosewheel types. I was recommended to do a tailwheel conversion on a (non aerobatic) Cub before moving on to a Cap, the instructor's reasoning being that the Cub is a harder taildragger to land and so teaches better generic tailwheel skills. In another thread recently it was suggested that a Citabria is great fun, although there don't seem to be that many of them around. Meanwhile, my friend learning in the Pitts has opted to use it to collect his tailwheel tick, his wobbly prop tick, and his aeros course all on one aircraft. If it is really true that Ms Grace at Duxford did her PPL on her Spitfire (I've heard this said but have no idea if it's true) I suppose that covered all three as well!
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If you are interested in Yak flying, I can only repeat earlier endorsements of Gennady Elfimov at Skytrace, Wolverhampton Business Airport. If you undertake his entire Safety Course, you will come away thoroughly familiar with Yak 52 operations and probably be pretty competent at Standard Level aeros. Which is a bit of a bonus if, like I was, you have not flow a stick and rudder high power aeroplane before....Here's the link again: http://www.skytrace.co.uk/
Have fun.
Have fun.
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I'm doing my PPL in Citabria and it's just a joy to fly compared with a 172. Really responsive. Just the t/o is a bit harder, but lovely on spins and instructors are not so bothered about that as not full of expensive gyros like a typical 172.
I am really looking forward to getting some aeros in other than spins as it sounds like it is my instructor's favourite thing to teach.
Deffo recommend Citabrias. Shouldn't be sig. more expensive than typical 172, unlike Yak/Pitts etc.
I am really looking forward to getting some aeros in other than spins as it sounds like it is my instructor's favourite thing to teach.
Deffo recommend Citabrias. Shouldn't be sig. more expensive than typical 172, unlike Yak/Pitts etc.