Misuse of A/G units
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Ta muchly. I've heard " at your discretion " a number of times at A/G airfields in the past. Looked for anyone on finals and quite often seen someone and thought....." he's a bit optimistic " calling that one and decided to stay put.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="cool.gif" /> . .. .This is the kind of stuff that is a lot more relevant than knowing some obscure ICAO article in Air Law!. .. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />
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"FISO - Can give instructions on the ground but only information (including traffic information) in the air. .. .A/G - Can give information only with regard to the aerodrome operation, as opposed to specific traffic information (they're not trained nor qualified to do so).". .. .WRONG! INFORMATION is INFORMATION no matter what it concerns, its purpose is to permit a pilot to operate in accordance with the rules of the air. Whilst a FISO might be better qualified than some A/G ops, legally, there is no difference between A/G and AFIS when airborne. The Authority of the FISO ceases once you pass the holding point.
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Hi. .. ." As far as the instruction - " line up on RWY ... at your discretion " ". .. .As expalined already , coming from an A/G unit this is definately a no no. However it's also technically incorrect coming from a FIS. . .. .FISOs will use "Take off at your discretion" when there is no air traffic reason that an aircraft can't depart. . .. .If a FISO wants an aircraft to line up on a runway and wait (perhaps due to traffic wanting to cross the runway, or to traffic departing from further along it etc), the phrase "G-XX, report lining up" is used. The aircraft should not then report until "Take off at your discretion" is issued.. .. .Cheers
Hi All.. . With regard to monitoring the provision of service by A/G or FISO. CAA ATS Safety Regulation do monitor service but, as their main responsibility is to full ATC units they will only generally be aware of misuse or poor A/G or FISO work if you tell them. So if you feel the service was poor or misleading enough to warrant a complaint to them their phone numbers are... .(Southern Region) 01293 573426 (Gatwick). .(Central) 0161 499 3055 (Manchester). .(Northern)01786 431401 (Stirling). . . . Personally I agree with a lot of the previous posts that the problem lies with the fact that many service providers expect anyone qualified, (I hope), to handle the radio who happens to be near it! If this is combined with a lack of pilot knowledge of what the service being provided should be you have a recipe for confusion. A few years ago I used to do the A/G at a local fly-in and I can tell you the requests from many of the visiting pilots for 'clearances' etc were quite an eye opener. When I'm flying I always remember the part that was in the Air Nav Order when I had to learn it..'Notwithstanding any ATC clearance it shall remain the responsibility of the Aircraft commander to ensure the safe operation of the aircraft'. I think with that in mind you shouldn't go far wrong.. .. .Spiney
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Deary me people... We'll be going to full ATS's at every airport soon if you lot have your way!. .. .It's the PIC's responsibility to know what service (s)he is being offered and act accordingly. You look up the approach and check the runway before you enter it - that's the same whether it's Luton, Duxford or Dunkeswell! . .. .We don't need anymore regulation in flying. Take the services on offer, in general A/G Operators are helpful - they know stuff about their own airfield which you don't, AFISO's know even more and can provide a first class service. ATC - well, they set a world class standard.. .. .If I'm told to do something I think about it, "Jump!" "Why?", not "How High?", therefore if you're not happy with something don't do it! . .. .The CAA don't need phoning about A/G Operators going outside of their limits, the A/G Operators just need to know where your flexibility ends.
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Tee & Noggin. .. .There are certain places where the A/G operator does not have a view of the circuit and the entire airfield, working from an office as opposed to a tower (Sherburn, Caernarvon and Welshpool come immediately to mind). The sort of traffic information that they cannot posibly give (and which I as an ATCO refer to) is when you call downwind and you start being given where the other traffic in the circuit is. . .. .In addition to this bear this in mind. In an uncontrolled environment how do you know the traffic information you are receiving is correct?. .. .So - although you say they can give it, the real question has to be - is it accurate?. .. .CM
Daifly.. . The last thing I would want is for people to feel that if they have a 'problem' with an A/G operator or FISO they should start ringing ATS standards! I merely put the info in the post because this question was posed earlier in this topic. My personal view is that firstly, as you rightly say, you should understand the limitations of the service that,as a pilot, you're recieving. Secondly, the responsibility finally rests with you as the pilot, whatever the ATC service you're getting.. .. .Spiney
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you just jogged my memory.... .. .the late Chris Freeman of Headcorn (oops Lashenden). .. .I used to travel between Guernsey and Headcorn quite often, and I'll always remember the first time I rang enquiring about who to fax regarding customs and SB.. .. .His reply was "I am Customs". .. .RIP and sadly missed as one of the characters of aviation
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Fiso
Just a quick reply after breezing through all of the replies, thought i might set the record straight.
First of all if you have any problems that you believe may endanger the safety of aircraft, please report it. I would always advise that you go through the chain of command. I am a senior FISO (A) at a very busy aerodrome (when the weathers good!), if i had any information given to me by a pilot that one of the FISO's had been going beyond their proffessional capacity i WOULD do something about it.
If you do not seem to have any luck for some reason then go to the Airfield manager or head of operations and advise them of your concerns. If this does not work (which frankly i hope it would) your next step would be ATS standards at Gatwick.
In reply to noggins note, FISO's have Full control on the ground up to the holding point. This rule can be found in CAP 410 part A and B and also in CAP 427.
After the holding point you will hear one of the following phrases, either Hold Position (at the designated holding point) Take off Your discreation RWY-- Surface wind, or The runway is occupied report lining up (this is instead of Line up RWY-- This is a command and cannot be said when you have passed/or are about to pass the holding point).
In response to another question, all FISO's have to do whats called a revalidation after two years. This involves a member of the CAA coming in and examining you for say 3 to 4 hours and you then have an oral exam. This must be done to contiue to use your Lisence at an aerodrome.
We also have an Air Traffic inspection every two years so we are regulated and if the aerodrome fails this something must be done to improve it otherwise the CAA may take away the privilages of using a FISO service.
Recording of the RT is not yet in force for a FISO unit (Aerodrome) details of this can be found in CAP 427
I hope this has helped
First of all if you have any problems that you believe may endanger the safety of aircraft, please report it. I would always advise that you go through the chain of command. I am a senior FISO (A) at a very busy aerodrome (when the weathers good!), if i had any information given to me by a pilot that one of the FISO's had been going beyond their proffessional capacity i WOULD do something about it.
If you do not seem to have any luck for some reason then go to the Airfield manager or head of operations and advise them of your concerns. If this does not work (which frankly i hope it would) your next step would be ATS standards at Gatwick.
In reply to noggins note, FISO's have Full control on the ground up to the holding point. This rule can be found in CAP 410 part A and B and also in CAP 427.
After the holding point you will hear one of the following phrases, either Hold Position (at the designated holding point) Take off Your discreation RWY-- Surface wind, or The runway is occupied report lining up (this is instead of Line up RWY-- This is a command and cannot be said when you have passed/or are about to pass the holding point).
In response to another question, all FISO's have to do whats called a revalidation after two years. This involves a member of the CAA coming in and examining you for say 3 to 4 hours and you then have an oral exam. This must be done to contiue to use your Lisence at an aerodrome.
We also have an Air Traffic inspection every two years so we are regulated and if the aerodrome fails this something must be done to improve it otherwise the CAA may take away the privilages of using a FISO service.
Recording of the RT is not yet in force for a FISO unit (Aerodrome) details of this can be found in CAP 427
I hope this has helped
I say there boy
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A few years ago I regularly had a problem with the A/G service at a certain Kent airfield that styles itself as a London airport (despite being on a mudflat next to a nuclear power station a good 60 miles from the capital). On some occasions it was like listening to Heathrow Final Director. It wouldn't have surprised me to be given vectors. I don't visit there anymore.
Overall I think that P_S's approach is best. First of all, if you are confronted with a unit that is behaving above its station either politely comply (if it is good airmanship to do so) or ignore it (but announce your intentions for the sake of the other a/c on frequency).
If things get any worse (at the aforementioned Kent airport I was once berated on air for not doing what the A/G said despite announcing my intentions), a simple polite call of 'Station Calling, confirm your callsign XXXXX RADIO' with a follow-up phone call on the ground to tell them what you think!
If you still get problems after that, contact the CAA and NATS - A/G units and AFISOs have senior NATS ATCOs allocated to them to oversee their standards and would be very interested to hear about what units for which they have responsibility were up to. Certain members of pprune's ATC community do this job!
cheers!
foggy.
Overall I think that P_S's approach is best. First of all, if you are confronted with a unit that is behaving above its station either politely comply (if it is good airmanship to do so) or ignore it (but announce your intentions for the sake of the other a/c on frequency).
If things get any worse (at the aforementioned Kent airport I was once berated on air for not doing what the A/G said despite announcing my intentions), a simple polite call of 'Station Calling, confirm your callsign XXXXX RADIO' with a follow-up phone call on the ground to tell them what you think!
If you still get problems after that, contact the CAA and NATS - A/G units and AFISOs have senior NATS ATCOs allocated to them to oversee their standards and would be very interested to hear about what units for which they have responsibility were up to. Certain members of pprune's ATC community do this job!
cheers!
foggy.
