Misuse of A/G units
 

Hiya,. .. .Just wondering, how many people have encountered misuse of A/G units at small airfields. I have encountered it twice, at Fenland, and Dunkeswell, both times I was "cleared" (TWR) to taxi to the holding point and was allowed to take-off "at my discretion" (AFIS) which threw me a bit because, having done all my training at an airfield with only a "radio" suffix as the callsign I was used to the normal correct procedures.. .. .Does no-one monitor this sort of thing because one day someone is going to get hurt by obeying instructions issued by someone not authorised to do so.. .. .Not picking at the above airfields, both are great places that I have visited more than once but sometimes have encountered some oddities on the r/t that´s all. Anyone else had these experiences?

Report them to the CAA. I am sure they would take a very dim few on the practise.. .. .MJ

These problems are compounded by the fact that A/G or FISO units are not required to record the frequency they operate on. It is a recommendation for FISO units only. So any disagreements like this are very difficult to prove, unless there is an SRG inspector monitoring clandestinely!! Basically like all things aviation, you pays your money and makes your choice, where you fly from.

DVR6K,. .. .Did it cause you a problem, or was it just a poor choise of words on behalf of who ever was using the radio at the time?. .. .I know Dunks quite well having flown in a lot, and from the way the radio operates, it's whoever is nearest to the Tx puts out the radio call. It's never been a problem to me.. .. .PS

At least part of the problem is attributable to pilots who cannot get into their thick heads the (clear and obvious) distinctions between ATC, FIS and A/G. I once overheard the driver of a twin asking for permission to start his engines at....Popham. He followed up by endless requests for clearances to taxi, phone his auntie, blow his nose etc. . .. .If the bloke at the other end of the A/G is also manning the front desk, making the butties, and tending the sheep, he may be led astray into inapt terminology by pilots blathering away using expressions such as clearance, requesting detailed traffic info etc. As is usually pointed out when this topic comes up, places like White Waltham have it down pat: if anyone asks for something they cannot give, he/she is told so politely but firmly, often just by the words "negative, air/ground only".. . . . <small>[ 08 March 2002, 08:37: Message edited by: FNG ]</small>

It irritates me when A/G ststions exceed their authority and, conversely, when pilots fail to recognise the difference between A/G, Flight Information and ATC.. .. .However, I must point out that Fenland isn't Air/Ground - it's "Fenland Information" and offers a Flight Information Service. FISOs can issue instructions to aircraft on the ground and use the phrase "at your discretion" to indicate to pilots that they are not subject to "control" by the FISO.. .. .Fenland isn't my home patch, but I've always found the service there to be provided within the rules.

Yes, I totaly agree that from time to time that radio operators (whatever their qualifications) do exceed their auhority, but I must say that I've got to the stage where I don't get rattled by it anymore. I take the view that they are there to help me, and wherever possibe I avoid the conflicts that would lead to them being stroppy and all that goes with that.. .. .The late Chris Freeman at Headcorn had RT off to a tee. RIP.. .. .PS

Having helped at an AFISO unit there is definately a big difference between an AFISO information service and air ground. An AFISO will have had to pass a very tough ATC exam, medical and be subject to frequent inspections from the CAA.. .. .If you look in Pooleys or the Air Pilot it clearly states that at weekends Fenland is an information service. The controller will also say information in all his calls. This is not an air ground service it is an ATC service - that's why you get different instructions. . .. .There are however many air ground services who think they are full controllers and will give you more instructions than an AFISO!!!

There is no such thing as an "AFISO" any more. The term is FISO because they may operate in information regions as well as at aerodromes.. .. .Red Four makes a curious comment: "A/G or FISO units are not required to record the frequency they operate on". .. .They are only allowed to operate on the frequency that has been allocated to them by the CAA.. .. .The major problem with A/G operators is that many are unqualified. In order to operate an A/G station you must be in posession of a Radio Operator's Certificate of Competence, to be valid the certificate must be signed by the radio station licensee, who is responsible for ensuring that the station is operated in accordance with CAP452. Many holders of this certificate obtained it on the basis of holding a FRTOL, it is probably unsigned, and they may never have seen a CAP452.

I think he means record as in keep a tape of the conversations. I thought FISO units had to do this now?

Polar, I don't think it the likes of yourself that need worry. You clearly understand whats going on. It is the poor student that has read his books but finds in practice it ain't true. It is confusing to them and ultimately dangerous. We must all try and be professional in what we do right from the start or else one day it will be a free for all. Hope Im not flying when it gets like that. The more experienced pilots I believe are in a very good position to demonstrate a good example to the learning brethren.

CaptAirProx . .. .Agree completely.. .. .PS

Though things like this shouldn't happen, I take instucitions from A/G as an advisory, certainly not an order.. .. .I say advisary, as I would expect ( read hope ) that they know more about what is happening at that airfield than I do.. .. .As P1, your in charge ( & ultimately responsible ). If it's not the right thing to do, don't do it! Personally, I wouldn't sit on a runway & wait at an A/G airfield.. .. .BtB

Well for the benefit of us students who haven't got as far as the RT - maybe one of you guys could give the various definitions between ATC/AG etc?

Thanks for your replies everyone! Not checked for a couple of days so lots to read!. .. .In response to a question from Polar Stereographic, no it wasn´t a problem as it was not very busy at the time and therefore any "instructions" I recieved at Fenland were pretty much what I was going to do anyway. I kinda wanted to question it but it was my QXC so I had other things on my mind!. .. .Dunkeswell weren´t that bad at all but some of the calls were a bit dubious but with hindsight they didn´t pose a danger to the operations at all.. .. .Thanks again for the replies, it´s very interesting to hear what other people think on this sort of thing. I certainly wasn´t expecting it when I first made radio contact with Fenland at the time and was a bit confusing etc considering all my training was at an A/G airfield.. .. .Cheers. .. .DVR6K

Polar. .. .Chris Freeman was indeed a character! If you listened carefully, you could often hear the latest litter of Jack Russells in the background!. .. .Sleep easy Chris. . . . <small>[ 09 March 2002, 06:52: Message edited by: Final 3 Greens ]</small>

Sennadog. .. .Ok - quick resume. .. .ATC - Can give instructions both in the air and on the ground.. .. .FISO - Can give instructions on the ground but only information (including traffic information) in the air. .. .A/G - Can give information only with regard to the aerodrome operation, as opposed to specific traffic information (they're not trained nor qualified to do so).. .. .CM

Cheers Chilli!. .. .Ultimately, it's the responsibility of the PIC to make the decision regardless of whether it's an A/G or ATC - right?. .. .As far as the instruction - " line up on RWY ... at your discretion " what people are saying as far as I can tell is that this is incorrect and that the A/G should not be giving this instruction? Am I right in saying this. From my limited experience this does not seem out of order.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" />

Sennadog,. .. .It´s always the pilot´s responsibility to make the decision whether ATC have told you it´s safe to do so or not. It´s your arse on the line remember.... .. .As for AFIS units, well, when you call "Ready for departure" they´ll say something like "Take-off at your discretion, one PA28 late downwind" and that will tell you to have a look for him and if he´s far enough away for you to execute the takeoff, you can go for it. They´re not telling you it´s safe to go, just informing you of what they know so you can make an informed decision as to whether you want to go or wait for the other bloke to land. See what I mean?. .. .I´m not an instructor so I´ve gone about explaining it very poorly but there´s a rule out there somewhere!. .. .Hope that is as clear as mud.

Senna. .. ."At your discretion" should not be used at an A/G unit. It implies that the operator giving you the information has assessed the situation, sees no reason to prevent your departure, but the final arbiter of that decision is you.. .. .A/G however are not qualified to provide that assessment. All they should be giving you is the surface wind (if available) and it is then up to you to assess both the traffic environment and whether it is safe for you to depart.. .. .CM