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Logging taxi time for aborted flight

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Logging taxi time for aborted flight

Old 30th Jul 2010, 01:23
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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That's absolutely cast iron, concrete evidence on which basis an examiner can refuse to accept taxy time as 'flight time'. If there ain't a take-off, and there ain't a landing, there ain't a flight.
I stand corrected. "...until the moment when it next comes to rest after landing;" It's the reference to a landing that screws me on this one im afraid! However, not nit-picking as I agree 100% with your comments but it would appear that there seems to be slight disadvantage to fixed wing in the ANO;

(5) For the purposes of this article, a helicopter is in flight from the moment the helicopter
first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off until the rotors are next stopped.
Ryan

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Old 30th Jul 2010, 01:28
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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On a related note I met a guy last year who kept a flying diary. I thought it was a smashing idea as he started with his first flying lesson and made observations, comments, posted pictures and momentos of most of his flights since then. Almost 20 years later he now has an invaluable record of the kinds of things that make flying special.....and will never show up in the bald one line entries of an official pilot logbook.

Sounds like the perfect place to note the day you were all ready to fly but holding short thought better of it and packed it in.......
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Old 30th Jul 2010, 01:32
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Ryan5252 View Post
not nit-picking as I agree 100% with your comments but it would appear that there seems to be slight disadvantage to fixed wing in the ANO;
Maybe that would be because almost all helicopters have skids and so to move they have to leave the ground which therefore requires the pilot to actually fly during their flight, a concept you seem to have difficulty understanding
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Old 30th Jul 2010, 01:41
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Maybe that would be because almost all helicopters have skids and so to move they have to leave the ground which therefore requires the pilot to actually fly during their flight, a concept you seem to have difficulty understanding
"almost all helicopters have skids" Not all Helicopters have skids, as you seem to be aware - and therein lies the slight disadvantage I referred to. Thanks again for yet another 'productive' comment

To put your mind to rest, as a pilot I have a sufficient knowledge of the definition of flight.
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Old 30th Jul 2010, 02:09
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Ryan5252 View Post

To put your mind to rest, as a pilot I have a sufficient knowledge of the definition of flight.
Yes I guess you do thanks to Airbus38 pointing out why your quote and opinion in post # 21 was wrong.

The good news is even silly topics like this one can provide new pilots with good information on topics they probably would never have thought to examine on their own. There always seems to be a lot of good info on the private pilot forum thanks to many contributors who are experts in their own fields, including many very experienced PPL's.
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Old 30th Jul 2010, 03:25
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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I find it interesting how many of the 'can log the taxi time even if no flight occurred' group paid attention to the initial part of the logging rules ie '...taxi for the purposes of flight...' but ignored the last bit: '...until comes to rest after landing'.
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Old 30th Jul 2010, 04:06
  #27 (permalink)  
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to move they have to leave the ground which therefore requires the pilot to actually fly during their flight
Well.... I, for one, am guilty of a certain amount of sliding around on the skids, trying to figure out where the pedals should be held to keep it straight, while power is increased in anticipation of a takeoff. This is particularly true when in a new type.

If this topic were to be in the rotorheads forum, we'd be seeing references to purposfully not using the rotor brake, so as to increase the flight time after landing by .1, by allowing the rotor to spin to a stop on it's own.

Oh, how happy I am, safe in the knowledge that I just don't really care about such details anymore!
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Old 30th Jul 2010, 06:23
  #28 (permalink)  
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I don't know if this has been discussed before but here goes:
Weather is below VFR limits (5 1 1 or whatever it is these days) but good enough if sufficient runway available to do a couple of 'hops'. Does this count as a flight and therefore qualify for the 'until comes to rest after landing'. And is it legal because if wx is below VFR then presumably it's got to be IFR?
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Old 30th Jul 2010, 06:40
  #29 (permalink)  
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Weather is below VFR limits (5 1 1 or whatever it is these days) but good enough if sufficient runway available to do a couple of 'hops'. Does this count as a flight and therefore qualify for the 'until comes to rest after landing'. And is it legal because if wx is below VFR then presumably it's got to be IFR?
If you take off and land, then it's a flight. Doesn't matter if all you do is fly around the circut.

VMC limits can be somewhat relaxed when you are close to an aerodrome. 5 km visibility, 1500 m horz, 1000 ft vert to cloud applies in class B-G airspace below 10 000 ft. But if you are at an airfield without ATC (class G airspace) then you only need to stay out of clouds and have 1500 m visibility (in daylight and below 140 kts) while in the circuit.

Similarily if you are in a CTR (class C) then you may request special VFR which also lets you fly VFR so long as you have 1500 m vis and stay out of clouds.
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Old 30th Jul 2010, 06:46
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Fuji - Explain.
Your post implied that you had aborted a high number of flights at the hold.
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Old 30th Jul 2010, 07:53
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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The aircraft might have taxyed for the purpose of take-off, but it never landed. Quite obviously, nothing may be logged.

The first YF-16 test flight wasn't intended - the aircraft was supposed to do a fast taxy run only. So it left the chocks not for the purpose of flying, but then did so - the pilot experienced large roll / yaw excursions on the runway, so applied full power and sorted it out in the air, then landed!

Would he have logged the flight? Probably, but just for the heck of it as he would undoubtedly already have half a squillion hours anyway.

But did 'Taffy' Holden ever log his unintended Lightning flight at Lyneham all those years ago?
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Old 30th Jul 2010, 08:09
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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VMC limits can be somewhat relaxed when you are close to an aerodrome
Yeah, I recall the first flight of mine in a new aircraft with a now mate and BA training captain. As we lined up I thought to myself this will be interesting, I am about to get a lesson in real isntrument flying. Well we departed, nearly took a look at the white bits which seemed to me pretty solid at about 500 feet, my mate smiled, said he didnt like the look of it, we did a circuit, and were back on the ground in short order.

Thank you for bringing back the memory.
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Old 30th Jul 2010, 08:20
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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In my case, my first first solo was kindly not charged by the flight school, so it never appeared in my log book.
Can I ask a stupid question - why wouldn't you log flying hours because the school decided not to charge you for them?
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Old 30th Jul 2010, 08:33
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Is this for real ? Are you so short of time that you have to log taxi time?
You were given 16knts but only cleared for 15 so you didn't go ?
I've never known the wind to be so constant in all the years I've been flying that one knot makes so much difference.Surely it would have been fluctuating a few knots iether way?
I could absolutely understand you saying that you were not comfortable flying in conditions that approached the maximum that you had experienced, and I would say that was a wise decision.
What worries me about your post is the exactness of the statement,i.e. one knot. Flying is all about experience and experience teaches you that it is not an exact science.The world is full of hedges with holes in them where pilots have shoved planes through them because the flight manual said they would take off in the required distance and they took that to be absolute whilst not factoring in other related data (eg length of grass).
The point that I am trying to make is not to get into the trap of being too exact in your flying. Your decision not to take off was a wise one, you shouldn't go if you are not happy for whatever reason.
Good luck with your progress !
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Old 30th Jul 2010, 08:33
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Were I to hire a pilot, I would not be looking for that last 0.2 hours in the log book of total experience. I would be looking for a person who was honest about the flying experience they had.
True enough, but I'd also be looking for a pilot who knows his limits and knows when to abort or cancel a flight. As such the decision has to be commended. The500man, you may also make an entry in your logbook with a remark and nothing in the time columns. (If you want to mention taxi time at all you can place it in the remarks column, but it's far less important than the fact that you have exercised good judgement).

As for crosswinds: particularly in gusting winds, it is difficult to determine exactly how close to the limit (the aircraft's or your own) you may be upon landing. One knot isn't going to make much difference.
If you feel uncomfortable with your own limit, get some good sessions with an instructor in a strong and gusty crosswind.
Note: some clubs impose low club limits to safeguard their airplanes against poor technique. I think that is silly; rather than increasing safety, it makes members afraid of crosswinds and that doesn't do any good to their technique.
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Old 30th Jul 2010, 09:02
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Can I ask a stupid question - why wouldn't you log flying hours because the school decided not to charge you for them?
In my case since I was at an intensive course, and I knew that at the end of the course the CFI would pull the financial records from the accounting department and compare them to what was in my logbook before signing the entries off as "logbook hours correct".

My estimate was that the time it would take me to explain this would be more than the actual time in my logbook, so the most efficient way was not to mention them.

(Never knew that five years down the line PPRuNe would come down to haunt me anyway...)
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Old 30th Jul 2010, 10:21
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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One comment for the OP that nobody has mentioned - the attitude that the club / POH has set a xwind limit, and that if it's 15kts you will fly, 16 kts you will not.

If you're comfortable in a lot more than 15, then that's fair enough (choosing to obey the rule), but I would suggest the primary concern should be 'can I handle this comfortably', in which case asking for another report in 30 sec might be appropriate if things are fluctuating. However, if it was 15 you're not automatically OK. In my opinion (there are plenty of those round here), you should be thinking about 'airmanship' - i.e. what is smart, rather than observance of a relatively arbitrary rule. Not to pick on you, just making a point - after all, you demonstrated sound judgement (err on the safe side) by not going in the first place.

I believe you'll find what is in the POH (proper) is the maximum demonstrated crosswind, not a *limit*. There are often discussions about insurance should anything go wrong, but I would suggest it is not a binary decision as goes a divert on reported wind landing. For one thing the reported wind is by definition historic data. Yes, I have aborted on excessive xwind before, but only after flying an approach and deciding I didn't like the picture at the end of it; in that case, there was nobody to report the wind, but the crab angle was severely large to make me reconsider.
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Old 30th Jul 2010, 10:36
  #38 (permalink)  
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I believe you'll find what is in the POH (proper) is the maximum demonstrated crosswind, not a *limit*.
I don't know what rules apply elsewhere but here in Sweden it's actually expressly forbidden to start or land if the crosswind component exceeds the maximum allowed or demonstrated as specified by the POH. LFS 2007:58 if anybody wants to look it up.

In my view, if the crosswind is just at the limit of what's allowed, or what the club rules say, or what you personally feel comfortable with, then don't fly. It might get better but it might also get worse.
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Old 30th Jul 2010, 11:30
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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When talking about crosswind limits, what you need to remember is that the manufacturer of an aircraft is legally required to demonstrate a landing with a crosswind component that's an x percentage of Vs0 before the aircraft can be certified. If the aircraft has a low Vs0, the demonstrated crosswind capability will therefore be relatively low too. And that's the number that goes into the POH. Even if the aircraft is perfectly capable of handling a far more severe crosswind. Even with only moderate pilot technique.

On the other hand, if the club (either because of insurance or other reasons) sets a crosswind limit, then that's just that: a limit. Suppose the insurance has limited the x-wind component to 15 and you prang the aircraft when the x-wind is reported to be 16. Or 17. Will the insurance pay or not?
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Old 30th Jul 2010, 12:07
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by BackPacker View Post
When talking about crosswind limits, what you need to remember is that the manufacturer of an aircraft is legally required to demonstrate a landing with a crosswind component that's an x percentage of Vs0 before the aircraft can be certified. If the aircraft has a low Vs0, the demonstrated crosswind capability will therefore be relatively low too. And that's the number that goes into the POH.
The exact words in part 23 (which covers most of the aeroplanes that most of us fly) are...

Originally Posted by EASA CS23
CS 23.233 Directional stability and control

(a) A 90 cross-component of wind velocity,
demonstrated to be safe for taxying, take-off and
landing must be established and must be not less
than 02 VS0.

(b) The aeroplane must be satisfactorily
controllable in power-off landings at normal
landing speed, without using brakes or engine
power to maintain a straight path until the speed
has decreased to less than 50% of the speed at
touchdown.

(c) The aeroplane must have adequate
directional control during taxying.

(d) Seaplanes must demonstrate satisfactory
directional stability and control for water
operations up to the maximum wind velocity
specified in sub-paragraph (a).



CS 23.1585 Operating procedures

(a) For all aeroplanes, information
concerning normal, abnormal (if applicable) and
emergency procedures and other pertinent
information necessary for safe operation and the
achievement of the scheduled performance must be
furnished, including

(1) An explanation of significant or
unusual flight or ground handling
characteristics;

(2) The maximum demonstrated values
of crosswind for take-off and landing and
procedures and information pertinent to
operations in crosswinds;
G
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