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Logging taxi time for aborted flight

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Logging taxi time for aborted flight

Old 29th Jul 2010, 19:32
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Logging taxi time for aborted flight

Just wondering if anyone knows for certain whether I should log taxi time for an aborted flight? I had a look at the UK ANO but I couldn't find the answer to my question.

What actually happened was having checked the nearest airports METAR, I taxied a C172 out for circuits at an A/G airfield, at which point calling ready for departure the radio operator passed me a suface wind of 16 knots, 90 degrees to the runway. Since my checkout instructor gave me a 15 knot maximum for a crosswind I decided to taxi back and park.

If anyone can point me toward the relevant legislation that covers this I'd greatly appreciate it.
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Old 29th Jul 2010, 19:48
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You're P1 and so you are logging P1 time during the taxi. As long as you were the sole manipulator of the controls this time is fine to log. You will obviously need to leave a note in the remark section to explain why T/O, LDG has been left blank.

At least this is my understanding of the situation.

Last edited by Ryan5252; 29th Jul 2010 at 20:19.
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Old 29th Jul 2010, 19:55
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...so what happens if you go out for a trip solo, as PIC/P1, then on your return the wind is a steady 15+kts right across the runway? Are you not supposed to land, because your "check out instructor" says he's limiting you to 15kts?! What is the max demonstrated for the type?

You could have waited at the hold until they gave a more favourable wind and then departed!

As it is generally regarded as "flight time", it would seem odd if someone could sit on the apron with the engine running and the Hobbs ticking away, or do a bit of taxiing practice, and count all of this time as flight time. I think that as long as a flight takes place somewhere between taxiing and parking, you can log it all... but would you want to?



PS: I found all the gubbins below from google....

+++++++++++++++++++

Flight Time – FAA – ICAO – JAR

Flight Time

Typically refers to block time, i.e. chocks-away to chocks-under, which includes taxi time plus airborne time, i.e. wheels-off to wheels-on.

FAA Definition

FAA Regulations (14 CFR 1.1) defines flight time as “block time” as follows:
(1) Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing; or

(2) For a glider without self-launch capability, pilot time that commences when the glider is towed for the purpose of flight and ends when the glider comes to rest after landing.

ICAO Annex 1 Definition:

Flight time — aeroplanes. The total time from the moment an aeroplane first moves for the purpose of taking off until the moment it finally comes to rest at the end of the flight.

Note — Flight time as here defined is synonymous with the term “block to block” time or “chock to chock” time in general usage which is measured from the time an aeroplane first moves for the purpose of taking off until it finally stops at the end of the flight.

JAR-FCL 1.001 Definition:

The total time from the moment an aircraft first moves for the purpose of taking off until the moment it finally comes to rest at the end of the flight.
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Old 29th Jul 2010, 20:12
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...which means that yes you can log it (as you taxied with the intention of flying).

I once logged a trip which went to the holding point - rough running on one mag, flight aborted - and back to the flying school again...

Tim
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Old 29th Jul 2010, 20:17
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...so what happens if you go out for a trip solo, as PIC/P1, then on your return the wind is a steady 15+kts right across the runway? Are you not supposed to land, because your "check out instructor" says he's limiting you to 15kts?! What is the max demonstrated for the type?
Take-offs are optional, landings are not! Instructors and clubs often set their own guidelines regarding acceptable weather minimums. This may be more stringent than the POH and therefore the demonstrated cross wind component per the POH is not of concern if it is 15kts or greater.

You could have waited at the hold until they gave a more favourable wind and then departed!
At who's expense? To hire an aircraft is costing around £2.50/minute! Also, aside from obvious financial considerations do you really think it is wise to sit and wait for marginal weather before committing to flight? It is likely that things will deteriorate after take off.
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Old 29th Jul 2010, 20:40
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if you are using chocks off to chocks on as your logged 'flying time' just fill it in with a note inthe RH column but unless you are scambling for your 12 hours why agonise over it.
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Old 29th Jul 2010, 21:06
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Counting taxi time as flying time

Can't be done unless the intention to fly which is when the clock starts (brakes off) culminates in a landing which is when the clock stops (brakes on). If you didn't go flying you can't make a landing and so you can't count the time at all. I agree that it probably doesn't matter much in the general scheme of things (how long was actually spent at the hold?) and it is very annoying when the flight school or whatever still charges you for a flight that didn't take place. Better to ignore it than have your application for a licence rejected because of a discrepancy in hours.
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Old 29th Jul 2010, 21:10
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Thanks for the replies guys, I'll log it P1 with a comment.

...so what happens if you go out for a trip solo, as PIC/P1, then on your return the wind is a steady 15+kts right across the runway? Are you not supposed to land, because your "check out instructor" says he's limiting you to 15kts?! What is the max demonstrated for the type?
@ sapperkenno. I would land if the surface crosswind was 15 knots or less. However if it were greater than I would go somewhere else to land or ask for a different runway if available. If you would land anyway well that's upto you.

FYI
The maximum allowable crosswind velocity is dependent on pilot capability as well as aircraft limitations. With average pilot technique, direct crosswinds of 15 knots can be handled with safety.
This is from the Cessna manual.
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Old 29th Jul 2010, 21:48
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I have to ask why you would want to log a non-flight. It doesn't count in any meaningful way.

I have had many occasions (some with an instructor on board) where we turned back at the hold. It could be due to weather or the aircraft had gone tech. I never thought of recording it in my logbook if the wheels hadn't lifted.

I think the quotes mentioned
ICAO Annex 1 Definition:

Flight time — aeroplanes. The total time from the moment an aeroplane first moves for the purpose of taking off until the moment it finally comes to rest at the end of the flight.
This implies that a flight should have taken place to log the time. It you turn back, it obviously didn't.
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Old 29th Jul 2010, 21:52
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Flight time is "Brakes Off" to "Brakes On" in civilian parlance. Therefore, technically it counts as a flight. In the commercial world, if you return to stand after moving under your own power, it counts as a sector in terms of the operation and technically also counts as a sector for FTL purposes. In theory, the same should apply to a private operation.

...first moves for the purpose of taking off...
[pedant]The implication is that you intend to fly, not that you actually fly. If you have to return due to a technical problem (say), it counts as a flight - or at least it does in the commercial world.[/pedant]

PS: The500man, good decision.

Edit: A stage further (once again in the commercial world) - If you were to "remote hold" (ie. taxi from the stand to wait for a slot), this holding time must be deducted from the actual block time (brakes off to brakes on).

Another edit (only smaller): What's this obsession with logging hours anyway? Surely one flies for fun, not to prove anything. If you're counting hours for a licence, you can log them but they won't count unless they're meaningful.

Last edited by Human Factor; 29th Jul 2010 at 22:03.
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Old 29th Jul 2010, 22:08
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Surely...

(2) An aircraft shall be deemed to be in flight—

(a) in the case of a piloted flying machine, from the moment when, after the embarkation of its crew for the purpose of taking off, it first moves under its own power until the moment when it next comes to rest after landing;
(Art 155 of the ANO) implies that unless you get airborne enough to land you were never in flight and thus can't log anything?
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Old 29th Jul 2010, 22:50
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Technically, yes you can.

Realistically, oh come on?
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Old 29th Jul 2010, 23:28
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Oh for gawd's sake, just log it as a 'local' flight, or 'XXXX' to 'XXXX'. It's quite plausible you may have taken off, flown around for ten or fifteen minutes, seen the 'weather' and landed again.

Mind you, I'd be influenced by a couple of things - if you're still training, don't log it, as somebody else mentioned, it's not 'meaningful'. If you're qualified, nobody's ever going to check it, and ultimately it's another ten (presumably free) minutes in the old logbook.
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Old 29th Jul 2010, 23:46
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I once logged a trip which went to the holding point - rough running on one mag, flight aborted - and back to the flying school again...
That actually happened on my first solo. So I can claim two first solos - one where I intended to fly and one where I actually got into the air. (And the third first solo was last year in a glider.)

Anyway, I'm with the crowd that says that legally you can claim the flight since you moved the aircraft under its own power for the purpose of taking off. That you never took off due to weather or a tech issue is not really relevant. But I'm also with the crowd that says: why bother?

In my case, my first first solo was kindly not charged by the flight school, so it never appeared in my log book. But another flight where I taxied to the hold, then got carb ice during taxi (!) due to a squall line moving through and decided to head back to the clubhouse, did generate a tacho tick and was charged by the club so I did put it in my logbook. With a remark "aborted flight due to wx".

Anyway, better safe than sorry. You can always abort the flight right until the moment your wheels leave the ground, and should so if you have any doubts about being able to complete it successfully.
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Old 29th Jul 2010, 23:50
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At who's expense? To hire an aircraft is costing around £2.50/minute! Also, aside from obvious financial considerations do you really think it is wise to sit and wait for marginal weather before committing to flight? It is likely that things will deteriorate after take off.
You were the one who started up and taxied out, presumably after checking that the wind would be within your personal limits (looking at a windsock, asking someone on the desk before you hired their aircraft, asking an instructor, calling the tower) and making sure that you could safely conduct the flight in the first place. Weather can improve as well as deteriorate. If something is "likely" to happen, would it not be forewarned, and you would have picked up on it in the pre-flight stage?? If you asked someone with local knowledge, looked at some nearby TAFs etc, then although it may not have seemed possible at the time, after 30mins-1 hour, it could be a totally different scenario.

I'm NOT knocking you, as in the end, you made a decision which was safe, and you didn't upset your club and/or break any club rules, or think you knew better than the instructor who signed you off. You also had the discipline to say "No", so good on you. If it looked "marginal" before you even walked out to the aircraft though, then there's only really you to blame for not leaving it 'til another time and saving the money you spent sat on the ground with the engine running. Could you not have asked for the wind from the A/G as soon as you'd started up?

As far as logging the time, I wouldn't be happy logging such a thing towards my "hours", as it's worthless as far as the flying and the experience side of things is concerned. I think you should take it on the chin that you didn't fly, and just put it down to experience. Flying is all about learning, and this should be a good lesson to you on pre-flight planning. So just think, you now have this experience first-hand, and it will help you in future.

What would benefit you more... 15 mins of time logged actually flying, such as practicing touch and goes in strong crosswinds sat alongside a competent pilot... or 15 mins of p1ssing about taxiing around and holding..?? Unfortunately, it does cost a lot of money to hire an aircraft, and that's just the nature of the beast.

So quite rightly, when you're forking out £££ to hire, then this happens, you're going to want the time that you paid for. But do you really think that a flight that isn't, should be logged as such!? I don't, cuz that's just daft.
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Old 29th Jul 2010, 23:53
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For goodness sake, I can't begin to count the number of occasions on which I've taxied back to parking without ever taking off, and frankly I don't think I'd be able to cope with the barrage of p**s take I'd get from the boys if I tried to LOG it!
Which is a worry.
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Old 30th Jul 2010, 00:00
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I wouldn't be happy logging such a thing towards my "hours", as it's worthless as far as the flying and the experience side of things is concerned.
Actually, having the guts to abort a flight when you've started up and taxied all the way to the hold, is probably a very valuable experience.

Fortunately I don't hold an instructor or examiner rating, but if I would and I would need to review other peoples logbooks, I would love to see one or two 10-minute "flights" where no take-offs and landings took place. Because it would show me that somebody has the guts to say "no" even when 99% of the preparation to go flying has been done.
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Old 30th Jul 2010, 01:06
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@sapperkenno, you seem to have quoted my text but your reply seems addressed to the OP, which wasn't me. No big deal, just wanted to clear it up.

To the OP, I think the consensus is that technically and legally it seems you can log the 'flight'. Also, it would have to be logged in the aircraft's tech log but not sure if that helps you. As to whether or not you 'should' log the time I suppose is your decision alone. Personally, I think anything 10mins or more is worth logging especially if I happened to be charged by the club (which is entirely reasonable).

Whether or not it is acceptable for the purpose of licence issue is grey but I feel a one off isn't going to make a difference and can't see your application being declined for this alone. If this is for PPL training, you are not likely to send off for your licence with exactly 45 hours which includes the aborted flight.

As to the interpretation of the ANO specifically
Flight time — aeroplanes. The total time from the moment an aeroplane first moves for the purpose of taking off until the moment it finally comes to rest at the end of the flight.
I believe that for the CAA or any examiner to disregard any flight time explicit references should be made available from the relevant sections of legislation and as such, I personally, would not accept to be penalized for something implied by the ANO. I agree that 'flight' implies the aircraft having left the surface, but honestly, there are much more worthwhile worries to concern yourself with.
Log it or not, it's your call but after you decide move on to other things.

PS, very well done for sound decision making.
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Old 30th Jul 2010, 01:21
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At some point common sense as to enter into the equation. I think it is obvious you have to do some flying before you can have a flight. Even if you can twist the rules to somehow find a legal rational it is still silly. Life is not fair and some days you get right to the hold point and you cannot take off. That day goes into the "sucks to be you" column and you move on. As an instructor, if I saw non flying flights logged I would immedately wonder what other liberties he/she had taken with how they logged time

I also think that the commercial example is not very usefull as movement of the aircraft has to be accounted for in order to manage cost assignment and turbine engines often must account for start cycles even if no takeoff was performed. However none of this ever shows up as pilot flight hours, just block or duty hours
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Old 30th Jul 2010, 02:11
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Realistically, oh come on?
I'm with JAFO, and Big Pistons on this...

Were I to hire a pilot, I would not be looking for that last 0.2 hours in the log book of total experience. I would be looking for a person who was honest about the flying experience they had. We will always give you some credit for some time not logged, which was spent operating an aircraft on the ground. We'd rather that you not take more credit for this that you're due...
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