Light Aircraft down in Oxfordshire (Merged)
Easy to say here, but my money would have been on heading for a 'huge' runway, circle overhead until basically out of fuel and the fire-engines and ambulances were nicely bored waiting for me...
But, easier from my armchair!
Safe flights, Sam.
PS I do think that discussing the legality of this flight is worthwhile - it's all useful information that helps others stay legal.
But, easier from my armchair!
Safe flights, Sam.
PS I do think that discussing the legality of this flight is worthwhile - it's all useful information that helps others stay legal.
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Choice of hard or soft runway for crash landings?
In theory, in the situation where a crash landing is inevitable and the only variables are when and where, would it be better to choose the grass as in this case, or opt for a hard runway? I read somewhere that the deceleration forces in a crash landing on soft ground are extremely high since the plane just digs in. Chances of survival are paradoxically much better on a hard runway where there is a chance of skidding along and decelerating more slowly although this has to be set against a risk of sparks setting fuel alight. This is not to criticise the pilot in this current episode who made difficult choices in the emergency and did well to ensure he and his passenger survived, and in any event we don't fully know what happened, but just thinking through what I might have done in a similar situation.
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Sam Rutherford
It's not worthwhile discussing the legality of this flight when the circumstances in which this flight took place are not known.
It's not useful unless readers are able to distinguish between the accurate and inaccurate information posted about 'the law.'
FL
I do think that discussing the legality of this flight is worthwhile
it's all useful information that helps others stay legal
FL
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I think Nigel Farage reported that the banner had wrapped itself "round the tail" (so he may have meant the fin or the empennage) so re-routing via D&D to another better equipped airfield was never an option. They had to get down quickly
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The risk of injuries would have been reduced if they were wearing Nomex flying suits,gloves and bone-domes(helmets) plus get rid of all the loose articles ie. Hose-reel floating about in the rear cabin,particularly as this was a commercial flight.
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It's not useful unless readers are able to distinguish between the accurate and inaccurate information posted about 'the law.'
FL
FL
However, it is disturbing that there seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding on here of what defines "aerial work". Several posts have suggested that whether or not a flight is aerial work is determined by the nature of the task undertaken. (Specifically, statements like "Banner towing is aerial work".)
As I'm sure FL and others know, aerial work is not defined in that way:
ANO S259(1): ...aerial work means any purpose, other than commercial air transport or public transport, for which an aircraft is flown if valuable consideration is given or promised for the flight or the purpose of the flight. (my italics, and there are various specific exceptions covering cost sharing, flying displays & prizes, etc.)
That means that if a friend says he'll give me a tenner to fly over his house the next time I go up on a sunny Sunday afternoon, because his kid loves aircraft spotting, I would be conducting aerial work...
But, try as I might, I cannot find any specific prohibition on carrying passengers while conducting aerial work. However, if valuable consideration is given or promised for their carriage, then the flight becomes public transport. (Parachute lifts being an exception - they are specifically defined as aerial work not public transport, subject to various conditions being met.)
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I apreciate laws and rules change. If i recall correctly (time wise)around 10 years ago i wrote to the caa asking if i could use a 172 for banner towing, advertising my own business being a ppl holder.The reply around a month later was a confirmation letter saying it was acceptable.After weighing up training costs, banner costs and insurance etc i chose not to proceed.Obviously different if you run a banner towing setup.
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I apreciate laws and rules change. If i recall correctly (time wise)around 10 years ago i wrote to the caa asking if i could use a 172 for banner towing, advertising my own business being a ppl holder.The reply around a month later was a confirmation letter saying it was acceptable.After weighing up training costs, banner costs and insurance etc i chose not to proceed.Obviously different if you run a banner towing setup.
They said advertising your services was allowed on a PPL !?
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For a little more insight here's the interview with Mr Farage and the BBC:
BBC News - Former UKIP leader Nigel Farage speaks on plane crash
BBC News - Former UKIP leader Nigel Farage speaks on plane crash
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Banner Towing et al
There's an awful lot of misinformation floating around here and as the owner of Airads, with over 1,000 hours of experience doing this kind of aerial work let me try and help get some of the facts presented properly.
Banner towing is a tricky as it gets in terms of aerial work. Only a handful of us do this in the UK, one less after the incident being discussed here.
It does however have an unprecedented safety record, possibly because everyone is very experienced and in mid-forties to mid fifties and inclined towards the "No old bold pilots" way of thinking.
Occasionally and like any flying activity, mistakes and accidents can happen. The same thing that happened with the Wilga, happened to me once in sudden unexpected turbulence near the ground during a pickup manoeuvre. It's a problem without doubt but one that can be dealt with without incident if the right procedure for landing with the banner still in tow is followed.
At Airads, we have strict operational safety rules that you will find in the aircraft on a laminated card to remind us before each flight. Most important of all, never let a client put you under time stress and "If it doesn't look right, then it probably isn't"
We don't take passengers because we don't have an AOC and it's best not to test the rules governing such anyway but occasionally, if W&B limits and drag calculations permit we will run with two pilots if only because two sets of eyes are better than one. Just after the pick up, it can be very useful having one pilot concentrating on the climb out manoeuvre and the other running through the checks. If you visit AiradsUK on YouTube you can see some examples.
To stress flight safety might appear trite but believe me, it's at the very top of my list of priorities and takes precedent above anything else. Towing banners has to be treated with the same care as say crop dusting or airshow aerobatics.
We do everything from opening the Farnborough Airshow, to lots of marriage proposals!
Hope that helps but happy to answer any questions if they come my way!
Banner towing is a tricky as it gets in terms of aerial work. Only a handful of us do this in the UK, one less after the incident being discussed here.
It does however have an unprecedented safety record, possibly because everyone is very experienced and in mid-forties to mid fifties and inclined towards the "No old bold pilots" way of thinking.
Occasionally and like any flying activity, mistakes and accidents can happen. The same thing that happened with the Wilga, happened to me once in sudden unexpected turbulence near the ground during a pickup manoeuvre. It's a problem without doubt but one that can be dealt with without incident if the right procedure for landing with the banner still in tow is followed.
At Airads, we have strict operational safety rules that you will find in the aircraft on a laminated card to remind us before each flight. Most important of all, never let a client put you under time stress and "If it doesn't look right, then it probably isn't"
We don't take passengers because we don't have an AOC and it's best not to test the rules governing such anyway but occasionally, if W&B limits and drag calculations permit we will run with two pilots if only because two sets of eyes are better than one. Just after the pick up, it can be very useful having one pilot concentrating on the climb out manoeuvre and the other running through the checks. If you visit AiradsUK on YouTube you can see some examples.
To stress flight safety might appear trite but believe me, it's at the very top of my list of priorities and takes precedent above anything else. Towing banners has to be treated with the same care as say crop dusting or airshow aerobatics.
We do everything from opening the Farnborough Airshow, to lots of marriage proposals!
Hope that helps but happy to answer any questions if they come my way!
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We don't take passengers because we don't have an AOC and it's best not to test the rules governing such
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Passengers on Banner Flights
It's really not appropriate for me to comment on another operator where an incident is presently under investigation.
All I can add is that when clients ask us to come along, which is not an infrequent request, we have a strict policy against it for a number of good reasons. These being potential liability, no AOC, a rather grey area for insurance and the simple fact that during one of the more difficult challenges in aviation, having a non-crew-member can be a distraction, if only because the pick-up manoeuvre can make them air sick!!!
We were asked to fly a UKIP banner around Birmingham with the candidate the previous weekend, an independent candidate on the same day and the LibDems the day before. In each case we were asked by the candidate if he could come along for the ride and in each case our own procedures ruled this out for the reasons I've given above. That's not to say that another operator may have different rules he chooses to follow
All I can add is that when clients ask us to come along, which is not an infrequent request, we have a strict policy against it for a number of good reasons. These being potential liability, no AOC, a rather grey area for insurance and the simple fact that during one of the more difficult challenges in aviation, having a non-crew-member can be a distraction, if only because the pick-up manoeuvre can make them air sick!!!
We were asked to fly a UKIP banner around Birmingham with the candidate the previous weekend, an independent candidate on the same day and the LibDems the day before. In each case we were asked by the candidate if he could come along for the ride and in each case our own procedures ruled this out for the reasons I've given above. That's not to say that another operator may have different rules he chooses to follow
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Who Cares?
Daft question, I know, but does anyone out there want to know, or even care, what actually happened that day?
I have a source with some of the forms submitted to both the AAIB and CAA.
She also has some good photos.
Makes interesting reading!!
Enough replies and I'll put them all out there, in one place.
I am aware that there is a pending investigation, and possible prosecution, but this information is already available, if you dig deep enough into the Great God Google, so technically it has already been published.
BTW, should we use that term in future; GGG (Great God Google) instead of WWW (yeah you know it!)?
xxx + cherry on top
I have a source with some of the forms submitted to both the AAIB and CAA.
She also has some good photos.
Makes interesting reading!!
Enough replies and I'll put them all out there, in one place.
I am aware that there is a pending investigation, and possible prosecution, but this information is already available, if you dig deep enough into the Great God Google, so technically it has already been published.
BTW, should we use that term in future; GGG (Great God Google) instead of WWW (yeah you know it!)?
xxx + cherry on top
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Some people have something to gain from bringing out facts at a time when the facts available point in a certain direction, sometimes not necessarily in the right direction....
Better for us to continue speculation and analysis, learn by doing so, and wait to be corrected by the AAIB report thereafter
Better for us to continue speculation and analysis, learn by doing so, and wait to be corrected by the AAIB report thereafter
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Choice of hard or soft runway for crash landings?
Having been involved in an accident this time last year , the ground was very hard when we impacted it near vertical due to a stall after take off from about 50 feet, my fault , causing the aircraft nose to crumple and skid forward after the impact for about 50 yards. If the ground had been soft earth the nose would have buried itself and I think the out come would have been much worse. Luckily the structure absorbed the impact in this case and we got out almost uninjured . A very sobering experience indeed !! Make sure your seatbelt is always tight ............................
Having been involved in an accident this time last year , the ground was very hard when we impacted it near vertical due to a stall after take off from about 50 feet, my fault , causing the aircraft nose to crumple and skid forward after the impact for about 50 yards. If the ground had been soft earth the nose would have buried itself and I think the out come would have been much worse. Luckily the structure absorbed the impact in this case and we got out almost uninjured . A very sobering experience indeed !! Make sure your seatbelt is always tight ............................
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More news.
BBC News - Crash pilot 'threatened to kill UKIP's Nigel Farage'
Ten minutes ago.
It just gets more confusing - now the pilot is remanded in custody for threatening to kill his passenger. Oh, and for likewise threatening an "aviatikon official".
Ten minutes ago.
It just gets more confusing - now the pilot is remanded in custody for threatening to kill his passenger. Oh, and for likewise threatening an "aviatikon official".
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