Light Aircraft down in Oxfordshire (Merged)
niknak
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From a personal source closely connected, unfortunately it appears that the pilot is very badly injured, Mr Farage, is recovering and expected to make a full recovery.
One human to another, I wish them both a speedy recovery.
Another case on Pprune where the balance between the welfare of those involved, what went wrong and pointing fingers with the benefit of hindsight comes into question.
One human to another, I wish them both a speedy recovery.
Another case on Pprune where the balance between the welfare of those involved, what went wrong and pointing fingers with the benefit of hindsight comes into question.
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I think that if the aircraft had come down on the hard tarmac covered strip instead of on the grass that the outcome could have been very different. Most of the time when anything like this happens we are looking at fatalities. They were also very lucky that there was no fire following the impact.
My uncle was killed in the 1950s in the crash of a tiger moth that clipped a radio mast very near to the ground in thick mist/fog. The impact was survivable as the pilot walked away before fire broke out but my uncle was trapped in the aircraft by the impact damage and then killed by poisonous gases from the ensuing fire but not by burns from the fire or by the original impact.
UKIP is very lucky to still have a candidate in this seat and moreover a candidate who looks as though he would still be perfectly capable of taking up his seat in Parliament if elected.
My uncle was killed in the 1950s in the crash of a tiger moth that clipped a radio mast very near to the ground in thick mist/fog. The impact was survivable as the pilot walked away before fire broke out but my uncle was trapped in the aircraft by the impact damage and then killed by poisonous gases from the ensuing fire but not by burns from the fire or by the original impact.
UKIP is very lucky to still have a candidate in this seat and moreover a candidate who looks as though he would still be perfectly capable of taking up his seat in Parliament if elected.
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The AAIB will only investigate the accident and not necessarily any legal issues unless they impact on the cause. That will be a job for the CAA.
We operate an AOC and have to dot all the I's and cross all the T's.
It is very expensive and time consuming.
It is always frustrating when others openly ignore the rules and just do it anyway.
Nonetheless best wishes to the pilot for a speedy recovery.
We operate an AOC and have to dot all the I's and cross all the T's.
It is very expensive and time consuming.
It is always frustrating when others openly ignore the rules and just do it anyway.
Nonetheless best wishes to the pilot for a speedy recovery.
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In addition to the legality of carrying a passenger on a banner towing flight, I understand UK election regulations to prohibit campaigning once the polls are open. The crash happened at ~ 08h00 this morning, one hour after polls opened. Everything I've seen so far in the media suggests the banner was carrying a message encouraging people to vote for Farage / UKIP...
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Was this aircraft operating from Wellesbourne on Saturday? I remember seeing a high winged aircraft picking up a UKIP banner from runway 05, which shocked me slightly because the market was on at the other end...
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From a personal source closely connected, unfortunately it appears that the pilot is very badly injured, Mr Farage, is recovering and expected to make a full recovery
I do hope that the pilot's injuries whilst serious are still ones from which he can make a full recovery in time and they they do not involve paralysis or other similar problems.
Last edited by Capvermell; 6th May 2010 at 15:55.
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The ANO does not prohibit the carrying of passengers during banner towing. However, it does prohibit the carrying of passengers on a helicopter while carrying an underslung load. (CAP 393 Section 128)
I would suggest that you have a good read of;
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP393.pdf
before accusing the pilot of illegal activities, just in case he has a good lawyer.
Dave
I would suggest that you have a good read of;
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP393.pdf
before accusing the pilot of illegal activities, just in case he has a good lawyer.
Dave
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I understand UK election regulations to prohibit campaigning once the polls are open. The crash happened at ~ 08h00 this morning, one hour after polls opened. Everything I've seen so far in the media suggests the banner was carrying a message encouraging people to vote for Farage / UKIP...
The only major significant restriction on polling day is in the kind of coverage the media can put out as they cannot broadcast or publish anything which allows a party to put forward their political message on election day.
However campaigning on the ground in the constituencies by the candidates and their supporters goes on relentlessly on polling day and includes speaker vans asking people to vote, parading around in shopping centres wearing rosettes and handing out leaflets, putting leaflets through doors asking pledged voters not to forget to vote and later in the day knocking on the doors of pledged voters or telephoning pledged voters who have not yet voted.
The only campaigning on the ground that is limited on polling day is putting up any sign or poster encouraging voters to vote for a certain candidate within 250 metres of a polling station. The tellers for each party who sit outside the polling station asking voters for voter numbers (which will tell them which voters have voted but not how they have voted unless those voters have previously revealed their intention during canvassing on the doorstep) are allowed to wear rosettes with the party colour but they not should not have the name of the candidate on them. Also the party tellers (or polling agents to give them their legal term) outside the polling station should not try to in any way influence a voter's voting intention on their way to the polling station.
Away from the immediate very close environs of the polling station anything goes in terms of cars and vans with posters on them or in this case a banner flown from a plane encouraging voters to vote for a particular candidate.
The relevant law is the Polling Stations (Regulation) Bill. It forbids campaigning activity within 250 metres of the entrance to a polling station. I think you will find this aircraft would have consistently been flying more than 250 metres away from any polling station had it not crashed before getting its banner in to the air.
See Polling Stations (Regulation) Bill
Last edited by Capvermell; 6th May 2010 at 16:06.
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4 Definitions (Article 255 (1))
5.1 To determine whether or not a flight which is not commercial air transport is for the purpose of public transport of passengers, the first question is whether or not there are any passengers on board. This is not always entirely straightforward as an occupant may claim to be a member of the crew.
5.2 Having determined that there is at least one passenger on board, the next question is whether any payment has been given or promised which, if it had not been given or promised would mean that the passengers would not have been carried. If there is any payment which could fall into this category, consider what would have happened if the passenger had presented himself for carriage and announced that such a payment would not now be made. Would the passenger still be carried?
5.3 If passengers are carried but there appears to be no payment for their carriage, consider whether the operator is an AOC holder. If it is, it will be public transport (subject to certain exceptions - see article 260(3)) even if there is no payment.
5.4 Even if no passenger is carried or there is no payment for the carriage of the passenger (and the operator is not an AOC holder) so that it is not a public transport of passengers flight, it may be aerial work if any payment has been made in respect of the flight or for the purpose of the flight
Straight from the CAA and their interpretation of the ANO.
In the commercial world this is common knowledge.
It is Aerial Work and you cannot carry passengers.
Period.
5.1 To determine whether or not a flight which is not commercial air transport is for the purpose of public transport of passengers, the first question is whether or not there are any passengers on board. This is not always entirely straightforward as an occupant may claim to be a member of the crew.
5.2 Having determined that there is at least one passenger on board, the next question is whether any payment has been given or promised which, if it had not been given or promised would mean that the passengers would not have been carried. If there is any payment which could fall into this category, consider what would have happened if the passenger had presented himself for carriage and announced that such a payment would not now be made. Would the passenger still be carried?
5.3 If passengers are carried but there appears to be no payment for their carriage, consider whether the operator is an AOC holder. If it is, it will be public transport (subject to certain exceptions - see article 260(3)) even if there is no payment.
5.4 Even if no passenger is carried or there is no payment for the carriage of the passenger (and the operator is not an AOC holder) so that it is not a public transport of passengers flight, it may be aerial work if any payment has been made in respect of the flight or for the purpose of the flight
Straight from the CAA and their interpretation of the ANO.
In the commercial world this is common knowledge.
It is Aerial Work and you cannot carry passengers.
Period.
perky - cirrus
I have only ever seen light aircraft doing the pickups in the way you describe in your first para. Even in a 6 cyl fuel injected C172 (so-called Rheims rocket), which is what our local banner towers used, there is too much drag, especially on grass, for a take-off with banner attached. When I was in the RAF, however, we had target towing Canberras on our station and they took off with the banner dragging behind on the runway, but the amount of power available was somewhat greater!
Good video Human Factor but I hate to see people flying in shorts - still imbued with RAF flight safety thinking on this, with every inch of exposed skin a potential flash burn site!
I have only ever seen light aircraft doing the pickups in the way you describe in your first para. Even in a 6 cyl fuel injected C172 (so-called Rheims rocket), which is what our local banner towers used, there is too much drag, especially on grass, for a take-off with banner attached. When I was in the RAF, however, we had target towing Canberras on our station and they took off with the banner dragging behind on the runway, but the amount of power available was somewhat greater!
Good video Human Factor but I hate to see people flying in shorts - still imbued with RAF flight safety thinking on this, with every inch of exposed skin a potential flash burn site!
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From the discussion immediately below the above YouTube video page:-
It looks to me like an inherently high risk activity much more in the acrobatic stunts league rather than being anything like normal flying. I suspect most politicians would cheerfully have left the pilot to it but the heavy drinking and smoking ex leader of UKIP clearly loves taking risks............
bushpilot23 How close to stall speed are you before you level off after picking up the banner? Looks like you're right close to stall speed. 8 months ago
1600u (uploader) usally we were about 2 or 3 knots above stall speed when we leveled off 8 months ago
1600u (uploader) usally we were about 2 or 3 knots above stall speed when we leveled off 8 months ago
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I have to agree with Binks, it's aerial work.
But apart from any legal considerations where was the COMMON SENSE?!!!
Who in their right minds contemplates banner towing and carrying a passenger - particularly a VIP?
I appreciate the Wilga is a capable aircraft, but safety margins are eroded with a passenger on board (performance).
I still bring to mind the sad day at Barton in the 80s when the Mike H was killed flying a banner-towing Rallye. Even with the greatest preparation in the world accidents can still happen.
KR
FOK
But apart from any legal considerations where was the COMMON SENSE?!!!
Who in their right minds contemplates banner towing and carrying a passenger - particularly a VIP?
I appreciate the Wilga is a capable aircraft, but safety margins are eroded with a passenger on board (performance).
I still bring to mind the sad day at Barton in the 80s when the Mike H was killed flying a banner-towing Rallye. Even with the greatest preparation in the world accidents can still happen.
KR
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The relevant law is the Polling Stations (Regulation) Bill. It forbids campaigning activity within 250 metres of the entrance to a polling station. I think you will find this aircraft would have consistently been flying more than 250 metres away from any polling station had it not crashed before getting its banner in to the air.
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Banner towing is dangerous. Even though the Wilga was designed to tow up several gliders at once, in Poland, where it is manufactured, and even though it has plenty of power, plenty can still go wrong.
I saw at Clacton on Sea a Supercub pick up a banner which draped itself over the tailplane. Couldn't be released. Somehow, flying sideways, the Cub managed to land ACROSS the grass strip and stop very very short indeed, and amazingly there was little damage. Evidently the banner had acted like the wire for a carrier landing.
The practice of towing banners along popular beaches in the US is well developed, with highly experienced daredevil pilots, who would not dream of taking a passenger along.
I saw at Clacton on Sea a Supercub pick up a banner which draped itself over the tailplane. Couldn't be released. Somehow, flying sideways, the Cub managed to land ACROSS the grass strip and stop very very short indeed, and amazingly there was little damage. Evidently the banner had acted like the wire for a carrier landing.
The practice of towing banners along popular beaches in the US is well developed, with highly experienced daredevil pilots, who would not dream of taking a passenger along.
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It was an invasion of privacy to show an injured Mr Farage trapped in the aircraft, Very poor taste by the media, should have stopped the publication. Bad show all round. Shame on you. 
Hope they both make good recoveries.
Hope they both make good recoveries.
Binks
You seem to quote a passage from a CAA paper correctly, but you then draw a quite unfounded inference.
As Airclues says, there is nothing in the ANO, or in that passage, to suggest that passengers may not be carried on an aerial work flight. In fact, 5.4 of the passage you quote clearly envisages that there may be circumstances in which a non-paying passenger may be carried on an aerial work flight by a non-AOC holder.
Passengers are regularly carried on training flights that are aerial work, for example the back-to-back training of a pair of students.
You seem to quote a passage from a CAA paper correctly, but you then draw a quite unfounded inference.
As Airclues says, there is nothing in the ANO, or in that passage, to suggest that passengers may not be carried on an aerial work flight. In fact, 5.4 of the passage you quote clearly envisages that there may be circumstances in which a non-paying passenger may be carried on an aerial work flight by a non-AOC holder.
Passengers are regularly carried on training flights that are aerial work, for example the back-to-back training of a pair of students.
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The extra weight and performance would be my concern
...usally we were about 2 or 3 knots above stall speed...
..and with only 700m t/o distance available - not much margin for error then.
What was the experience of the pilot?
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Binks:
I've no wish at all to be argumentative, and my ignorance on the subject of banner towing is near total, but I don't understand how the above paragraphs you quoted demonstrate that carrying a passenger while towing a banner is illegal.
Para 5.1 - we assume that the unfortunate Mr Farage did not claim to be a member of the crew, so he was a passenger.
Para 5.3 - I assume the operator doesn't hold an AOC, so that of itself this clause doesn't make this a public transport flight.
Para 5.4 - Assuming payment changed hands for the flight, (it could be a private flight by a UKIP supporter, for example), then this paragraph makes it aerial work.
Para 5.2 is the key para, surely? It clearly gives cause for a prudent operator to think hard before carrying passengers while conducting aerial work, because of the risk of the flight being deemed public transport, but it doesn't mean that simply carrying another, non-paying, human being necessarily makes the flight public transport. (E.g. suppose a fee has been agreed for the work, and the pilot offered to take a supernumerary at the last moment? There's no additional payment involved, so no paying passenger.)
And CAP393 doesn't forbid carrying passengers while towing, except for a helicopter.
I've no wish at all to be argumentative, and my ignorance on the subject of banner towing is near total, but I don't understand how the above paragraphs you quoted demonstrate that carrying a passenger while towing a banner is illegal.
Para 5.1 - we assume that the unfortunate Mr Farage did not claim to be a member of the crew, so he was a passenger.
Para 5.3 - I assume the operator doesn't hold an AOC, so that of itself this clause doesn't make this a public transport flight.
Para 5.4 - Assuming payment changed hands for the flight, (it could be a private flight by a UKIP supporter, for example), then this paragraph makes it aerial work.
Para 5.2 is the key para, surely? It clearly gives cause for a prudent operator to think hard before carrying passengers while conducting aerial work, because of the risk of the flight being deemed public transport, but it doesn't mean that simply carrying another, non-paying, human being necessarily makes the flight public transport. (E.g. suppose a fee has been agreed for the work, and the pilot offered to take a supernumerary at the last moment? There's no additional payment involved, so no paying passenger.)
And CAP393 doesn't forbid carrying passengers while towing, except for a helicopter.