Light Aircraft down in Oxfordshire (Merged)
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Bookworm. Back to back students are not passengers, they are students. It is permitted for an extra student to sit in the back for the purpose of flight training.
If it is acceptable to carry passengers on aerial work then why does any GA pleasure flight operator bother with an AOC.
It is also illegal to carry passengers on air displays, display practice, glider towing etc etc.
If you look at the definition of Passenger the CAA are quite clear on this.
The rule is there to protect the public, someone just going "for a ride" and putting themselves at a higher risk than on a conventional public transport flight.
I find it hard to believe that anyone can think that this is a legal and acceptable practice.
If it is acceptable to carry passengers on aerial work then why does any GA pleasure flight operator bother with an AOC.
It is also illegal to carry passengers on air displays, display practice, glider towing etc etc.
If you look at the definition of Passenger the CAA are quite clear on this.
The rule is there to protect the public, someone just going "for a ride" and putting themselves at a higher risk than on a conventional public transport flight.
I find it hard to believe that anyone can think that this is a legal and acceptable practice.
Binks,
I am sure that you are posting in good faith but I think it is possible that, if there is no AOC, then carrying a non-paying passenger 'along for the ride' is not illegal.
I would also suggest that 'legal and acceptable' are two different judgements.
The ANO is not at all clear and I'd guess that if Mr Adams wished to take action for libel against PPRuNe the lawyers would do very nicely.
I am sure that you are posting in good faith but I think it is possible that, if there is no AOC, then carrying a non-paying passenger 'along for the ride' is not illegal.
I would also suggest that 'legal and acceptable' are two different judgements.
The ANO is not at all clear and I'd guess that if Mr Adams wished to take action for libel against PPRuNe the lawyers would do very nicely.
If it is acceptable to carry passengers on aerial work then why does any GA pleasure flight operator bother with an AOC.
It is also illegal to carry passengers on air displays, display practice, glider towing etc etc.
If you look at the definition of Passenger the CAA are quite clear on this.
The rule is there to protect the public, someone just going "for a ride" and putting themselves at a higher risk than on a conventional public transport flight.
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If it is acceptable to carry passengers on aerial work then why does any GA pleasure flight operator bother with an AOC.
At the moment it would appear to be a grey area.
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The point is there is a big difference between going for a ride in a light aircraft, and participating in an activity which carries a hugely greater risk such as Banner Towing.
For a start the insurance will not cover a passenger, and for a commercial flight that means illegal.
These passengers are still paying for the flight be it as passenger or for the service - same thing.
In 200 hours of towing gliders no passengers to my knowledge were allowed.
Bookworm. the reason I drew a parallel with air displays is that the reason passengers are not allowed is purely safety. (Since the Invader Crash at Biggin Hill years ago in fact)
Banner towing is also a high risk activity and the risk is and should be limited to the pilot only.
For a start the insurance will not cover a passenger, and for a commercial flight that means illegal.
These passengers are still paying for the flight be it as passenger or for the service - same thing.
In 200 hours of towing gliders no passengers to my knowledge were allowed.
Bookworm. the reason I drew a parallel with air displays is that the reason passengers are not allowed is purely safety. (Since the Invader Crash at Biggin Hill years ago in fact)
Banner towing is also a high risk activity and the risk is and should be limited to the pilot only.
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There is a gliding club in the south of England which I believe sometimes does have passengers for aerotow retrieves - outbound an instructor, inbound the original pilot. AFAIK they had an aerotow retrieve incident (no-one hurt but the glider suffered some damage) and for various reasons now sometimes send an instructor to fly the glider back. Obviously it's not the club you towed gliders at!
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Guys, guys, guys..
It matters not whether the flight was illegal or not. A serious accident has happened, 2 people have been seriously injured and here we are, as usual, bickering amongst ourselves. It's quite sad really if you stand back and read it..
If it's illegal, I'm sure the relevant authorities are on the case. If not, let the AAIB investigate and decide what happened. Its not going to change anything.
Binks,
Whilst I agree with most of what you've said so far, I must take exception to this:
It is NOT illegal to carry passengers on practice display flights. I'm also sure (but not 100%) that it's not illegal to carry pax on glider tow flights either. When I was checked out to glider tow, I was technically a passenger, but it doesn't do much for the aircraft towing capabilities.....Likewise for practice displays, where I have spent many hours doing DA Evaluation flights in a variety or types, technically as a passenger.
Just wanted to get the facts straight
It matters not whether the flight was illegal or not. A serious accident has happened, 2 people have been seriously injured and here we are, as usual, bickering amongst ourselves. It's quite sad really if you stand back and read it..
If it's illegal, I'm sure the relevant authorities are on the case. If not, let the AAIB investigate and decide what happened. Its not going to change anything.
Binks,
Whilst I agree with most of what you've said so far, I must take exception to this:
It is also illegal to carry passengers on air displays, display practice, glider towing etc etc.
Just wanted to get the facts straight
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T21
It was an invasion of privacy to show an injured Mr Farage trapped in the aircraft, Very poor taste by the media, should have stopped the publication. Bad show all round. Shame on you. 
Hope they both make good recoveries.
Hope they both make good recoveries.
As a disinterested (not uninterested) onlooker, I suspect that Mr Farage is likely to have been the client of this professional banner towing company and therefore legitimately aboard in order to direct the flight - ergo part of the crew! Something else for the four ale bar room barristers to argue about.
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O/T
There is a gliding club in the south of England which I believe sometimes does have passengers for aerotow retrieves - outbound an instructor, inbound the original pilot.
Chaps, dont forget the rags read and quote from these forums.
You might be somewhat embarrased to read your own errors/misinterpretations on tomorrows front page!
Previous accidents frequently show that speculation/rumours here often prove wildly inaccurate and no one on Pprune has the real authority, or information, to determine whether this was a "legal" flight.
Surely better to avoid attracting any bad press for GA and leave the technicalities to the professionals who will, no doubt, be considering this unfortunate event.
You might be somewhat embarrased to read your own errors/misinterpretations on tomorrows front page!
Previous accidents frequently show that speculation/rumours here often prove wildly inaccurate and no one on Pprune has the real authority, or information, to determine whether this was a "legal" flight.
Surely better to avoid attracting any bad press for GA and leave the technicalities to the professionals who will, no doubt, be considering this unfortunate event.
I've flown in this aircraft. Sad to see it crashed. I hope the wing spar failure it had a couple of years ago has nothing to do with it. I wish Justin a speedy road to recovery...
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The Daily Mail has decided to publish some more, albeit shocking images, along with some eyewitness reports:
GENERAL ELECTION 2010: 'I just hope that the plane doesn't crash!'... What Ukip's Nigel Farage joked moments before his aircraft nosedived | Mail Online
Whatever the cause, it's amazing these guys survived and I wish them well.
GENERAL ELECTION 2010: 'I just hope that the plane doesn't crash!'... What Ukip's Nigel Farage joked moments before his aircraft nosedived | Mail Online
Whatever the cause, it's amazing these guys survived and I wish them well.
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Binks,
Do you KNOW that valuable consideration was made/agreed for any part of the flight? If not, then stop implying that it must be illegal! As has already been pointed out, it could have been a genuine private flight. Also pointed out was that if a charge was made for the purposes of carrying the banner and that no further charge was made for carriage of a passenger during the flight (which remained local), then no valuable consideration was made for carriage of the passenger = still legal.
Do you KNOW that valuable consideration was made/agreed for any part of the flight? If not, then stop implying that it must be illegal! As has already been pointed out, it could have been a genuine private flight. Also pointed out was that if a charge was made for the purposes of carrying the banner and that no further charge was made for carriage of a passenger during the flight (which remained local), then no valuable consideration was made for carriage of the passenger = still legal.
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Just seen the pics on the Daily Mail site. How bloody insensitive can they get?? Poor pilot obviously trapped in the wreckage behind and the photog. is snapping pics of the MP...bastards!
Some pics of a mate of mine(CPL/banner & glider tower/instructor) picking up a banner...it's a dodgy game at the best of times, involving a circuit and the out-throwing of a grappling hook and the banner towline. The banner is spread out flat on the ground with a loop of rope suspended between 2 poles about 2m high. He flies low and slow, gets lined up and gives it welly as the a/c passes over the poles. If he's a bit low, the hook occasionally bounces along the ground before catching the banner rope..a bit high and it might not catch properly resulting in a buggers muddle on the ground with poles and banner flying everywhere...then out I go to set it all up again! The tow rope is attached to the a/c via a glider tow release so if it all goes to pot he can at least cut it away.
Anyway, if all goes to plan, then it's up and away for a few hours, then back to the a/f, drop the banner and a normal circuit.
Some pics of a mate of mine(CPL/banner & glider tower/instructor) picking up a banner...it's a dodgy game at the best of times, involving a circuit and the out-throwing of a grappling hook and the banner towline. The banner is spread out flat on the ground with a loop of rope suspended between 2 poles about 2m high. He flies low and slow, gets lined up and gives it welly as the a/c passes over the poles. If he's a bit low, the hook occasionally bounces along the ground before catching the banner rope..a bit high and it might not catch properly resulting in a buggers muddle on the ground with poles and banner flying everywhere...then out I go to set it all up again! The tow rope is attached to the a/c via a glider tow release so if it all goes to pot he can at least cut it away.
Anyway, if all goes to plan, then it's up and away for a few hours, then back to the a/f, drop the banner and a normal circuit.
SASKATOON9999,
I can see your point.
I do think however, that those pictures provide a valuable insight for those who fly light aircraft into one outcome of an air accident.
Probably every light aircraft pilot's nightmare; certainly one of mine.
I can see your point.
I do think however, that those pictures provide a valuable insight for those who fly light aircraft into one outcome of an air accident.
Probably every light aircraft pilot's nightmare; certainly one of mine.
Banner Towing is Aerial Work.
You cannot take passengers on an Aerial work flight unless they are employees of the company that owns the aeroplane.
The flight was illegal.
You cannot take passengers on an Aerial work flight unless they are employees of the company that owns the aeroplane.
The flight was illegal.
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Isn't dropping parachutists aerial work?
Do all parachutists have to be employees of the company that owns the aeroplane they jump from?
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Aerial work.
Banner Towing is Aerial Work.
You cannot take passengers on an Aerial work flight unless they are employees of the company that owns the aeroplane.
The flight was illegal.
You cannot take passengers on an Aerial work flight unless they are employees of the company that owns the aeroplane.
The flight was illegal.