Instrument Flying
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Where I have a concern is that you then believe that you could execute a IFR approach in cloud.
That depends on a number of factors one concerning the aircraft type and autopilot fitted to it as well as how far he takes his unnoficial training.
He could for instance model the IMCr in his unnoficial training?
As an unqualified for IMC flight pilot it is more likely that the pilot would be radar vectored to a safe cloud break point.
If the cloudbase was too low an SRA or even a PAR.
Vectors onto an ILS with an autopilot fitted with app mode should hold the localiser and glide giving him speed control only to deal with.
So I would adjust your comments to depending on his training and the aircraft
But its that scenario I think he wants to cover.
Pace
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this looks a good DVD too
CD-ROMs & DVDs | IFR / IR Training | NCD301 | JAA/EASA PPL IMC Rating & Instrument Flying CD-Rom
CD-ROMs & DVDs | IFR / IR Training | NCD301 | JAA/EASA PPL IMC Rating & Instrument Flying CD-Rom
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Interestingly Viagra is an approved medication, the only stipulation is that it is not taken within 6 hours of flying
It's absolutely hilarious!!!
Reminds me of that helicopter pilot who got busted by the FAA
(Search youtube for Martz ... )TBH if I had an autopilot which can fly an ILS I would make damn sure I know how to operate that - as well as every other piece of avionics in such a plane.
The traditional UK way of getting people down when stuck in IMC or above a cloud is to send them off somewhere where nothing big is sticking up, and let them descend - or variations on that. But that is a very sub-optimal way of doing it. A pilot technically (but not legally) capable of instrument flight has many better options.
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Interestingly Viagra is an approved medication, the only stipulation is that it is not taken within 6 hours of flying
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Have you got a reference for that?
"6 hour wait before flying"
Actually it seems that most of the "banned" drugs are those used to treat mental disorders such as depression, psychosis, seizure disorder, panic disorders, some pain relief and stuff like that. Makes sense really, if you have a condition that could really be a hazard to flying and are on medication for it then you can't fly.
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Don't learn CPR, you should never get yourself into the situation to need it if you stay near healthy people. Don't buy a fire extinguisher for your house, you should never end up in situation that you'll need it if your safe. Don't take out RAC cover on your car, you should never end up in situation that you'll need it if you look after your car properly.........................
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would also like to be able to fly an approach on instruments in extremis
You and I normally speak the same language
He did add the word "extremis" to his line meaning if all goes pear shaped.
People are very imperfect and with the best will in the world DO get into stupid situations.
So yes drum it into the VFR pilot "cloud !do not touch as they are nasty and likely to bite your head off".
But sadly many do hit awful situations and then you are left with your own abilities and skills to save you.
In that situation a VFR pilot with no instrument ability or nav aid knowledge doesnt stand a chance.
A pilot with some knowledge albeit limited stands a better chance.
IMO such a pilot just trained to fly on instruments and taught nothing more than tuning setting up and flying an ILS would with some radar unit to guide him to the right point "probably" be able to survive and I stress the word probably. A lot also depends on whether he could hold the plot and not freak himself out ie panic in the process.
Overload is the final killer. The point at which overload hits depends on so many things, experience, knowledge, natural ability etc and that runs right through to the most experienced of us. The only difference is our overload level is much much higher.
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 4th Feb 2010 at 17:47.
The dirty secret about night flying is that if there is a cloud on a moonless night, even if unforecast, on your route, you will most likely discover it by finding yourself inside it.
If the temperature is below freezing, you want to exit before ice adds to the fun. If terrain allows, a descent to a lower safe height may get you clear. Otherwise it may be time for a 180.
If the temperature is below freezing, you want to exit before ice adds to the fun. If terrain allows, a descent to a lower safe height may get you clear. Otherwise it may be time for a 180.
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I thought of the NPPL but went FAA PPC which gave me 5 hrs under the hood; a lot better than 1 hour's NPPL appreciation IIRC. The microlight is a so called hot ship with better panel (D180) than the C152 I trained in.
I would be definitely in favour of good maintenance of the 180 turn out of trouble, as the minimum insurance against bad things happening. Descending out of cloud expecting to meet air before ground seems one hope too many one bad day? Well maybe if I'm feeling lucky.
Either way, OP has a good plan to buy insurance, whether he gets it legit or not, but better legit in case he can add it to a higher licence later.
I would be definitely in favour of good maintenance of the 180 turn out of trouble, as the minimum insurance against bad things happening. Descending out of cloud expecting to meet air before ground seems one hope too many one bad day? Well maybe if I'm feeling lucky.
Either way, OP has a good plan to buy insurance, whether he gets it legit or not, but better legit in case he can add it to a higher licence later.
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Please don't try it!
There's no such thing as 'casual' IFR. It's all serious and potentially dangerous - especially for the inexperienced and unwary.
The number of people who have 'casually' lost control or flown into the ground is many and continues to build (including pilots I have known - on return from a 'casual' VFR flight that suddenly became IFR and they clipped the top of the only hill in the area).
With hands clasped in prayer I say PLEASE NO!
If the cloud or vis is low just think of the other possible factors - accompanying wind/turbulence and rain, other IFR traffic, reading approach plates (if you have them), changing frequency, people on the ground, your family!
Until you have flown an approach in bad weather you really can't imagine what it can be like - you wont like it at all but probably will reach the pearly gates having to explain not only why you are there but also why your friend, wife or unfortunate soul on the ground is in the queue with you!
Please let it be me!
Surely noone could seriously think they could fly ...............
Hopefully a kindly instructor will gently translate dreaming into reality and prove the point that 'fools go where angels fear to tread!'.
KR
FOK
I am not about to commence serious IFR flying but would like to be able to fly on instruments in cloud if the weather deteriorates and also navigate using NDBs and VORs more effectively than I am currently able.
The number of people who have 'casually' lost control or flown into the ground is many and continues to build (including pilots I have known - on return from a 'casual' VFR flight that suddenly became IFR and they clipped the top of the only hill in the area).
I would also like to be able to fly an approach on instruments in extremis
If the cloud or vis is low just think of the other possible factors - accompanying wind/turbulence and rain, other IFR traffic, reading approach plates (if you have them), changing frequency, people on the ground, your family!
Until you have flown an approach in bad weather you really can't imagine what it can be like - you wont like it at all but probably will reach the pearly gates having to explain not only why you are there but also why your friend, wife or unfortunate soul on the ground is in the queue with you!
I'm sure someone will put me right!
Surely noone could seriously think they could fly ...............
Hopefully a kindly instructor will gently translate dreaming into reality and prove the point that 'fools go where angels fear to tread!'.
KR
FOK
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There is nothing wrong with wanting to be able to fly on instruments, even if a VFR only pilot in a non certified aeroplane. There is nothing wrong with ANY further training, whether someone is then "certified" or not....That includes approaches. So go for it, learn to fly instruments and have some fun. The only reason (one of the..) I got my IR in the first place was because I went on a flying holiday in the USA and the weather was ****e. After a few days of kicking heels around the flying school we thought sod it and got a FI to take us flying in the crap. We got the bug and so ended up doing the IR.
I'm sure that if you interpret what the poster was saying correctly then one can safely assume that they were saying that they wanted to have a back up in case VFR goes tits up. Nothing wrong with that at all. I admit that I have never encountered "unexpected IMC" when VFR but then again I plan a VFR flight as if it will become IFR and so no major deal if it does (except the time the plates were in the back.....
)
Actually a neat little trick I often use when VFR. Load the approach in and use that for guidance. We flew into Tucson a while back and having never been there before and because there is a military airfield right next door, it made it nice and easy to find the correct runway....
Use all available tools and be as prepared as possible......that's my motto (well it is now)
I'm sure that if you interpret what the poster was saying correctly then one can safely assume that they were saying that they wanted to have a back up in case VFR goes tits up. Nothing wrong with that at all. I admit that I have never encountered "unexpected IMC" when VFR but then again I plan a VFR flight as if it will become IFR and so no major deal if it does (except the time the plates were in the back.....
)Actually a neat little trick I often use when VFR. Load the approach in and use that for guidance. We flew into Tucson a while back and having never been there before and because there is a military airfield right next door, it made it nice and easy to find the correct runway....
Use all available tools and be as prepared as possible......that's my motto (well it is now
)
I am not about to commence serious IFR flying but would like to be able to fly on instruments in cloud if the weather deteriorates and also navigate using NDBs and VORs more effectively than I am currently able.
Flying in clouds is really serious stuff. Just holding a heading and altitude takes a lot of practice. Doing that AND all the other fiddling around that accompanies IFR flight (talking to ATC, twiddling radios and navaids, monitoring the engine...) takes REAL concentration.
Approaches are a challenge too. There's no such thing as "just being able to fly an ILS in case I need to". You need to practice constantly. I fly with an instructor about six times a year (most recently last night), and on my own in actual when I can, and I think that is really about the minimum. (And as it happens the FAA pretty much agrees, if you look at the currency requirements).
That said, instrument flying is also a lot of fun in a challenge-y sort of way, and I would strongly recommend doing it. And of course if you do it to a sufficient level of competence and stay current, then it may well save your life too, which is never a bad thing.
n5296s
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If you read the guys post you will see that he holds a NPPL only! because of a medical condition.
That means that he cannot hold any sort of official instrument qualification and cannot legally fly IFR or in IMC,( unless he flies a glider in which case he can do what he wants in cloud )
Anything he does has to be unofficial and he could only ever use those skills in an emergency situation which is all he as ever claimed he wanted it for.
Theoretically he could MODEL the IMCR and while he would never hold an official IMCR rating he would be as competant as a qualified IMCR pilot.
Currency? There is nothing to stop him grabbing an instructor every now and again or using his PC to keep current.
I commend him for taking his safety seriously by exploring his options to add some instrument flying as insurance against the worst.
nb I hope you and others here are NOT suggesting that a VFR pilot with NO instrument experience is safer than one who has a level of instrument experience? The French statistics dont support that!
The IMCR which many are trying to save is being touted as a safety feature not for some sort of IR but as a safeguard for VFR pilots but that is a different topic.
The IMCR is a pretty minimal instrument flying rating which if nothing else shows that treated with respect it does have safety benefits.
Hence all you can conclude from that is that ANY instrument training has to be better than NONE!!
Pace
If you read the guys post you will see that he holds a NPPL only! because of a medical condition.
That means that he cannot hold any sort of official instrument qualification and cannot legally fly IFR or in IMC,( unless he flies a glider in which case he can do what he wants in cloud )
Anything he does has to be unofficial and he could only ever use those skills in an emergency situation which is all he as ever claimed he wanted it for.
Theoretically he could MODEL the IMCR and while he would never hold an official IMCR rating he would be as competant as a qualified IMCR pilot.
Currency? There is nothing to stop him grabbing an instructor every now and again or using his PC to keep current.
I commend him for taking his safety seriously by exploring his options to add some instrument flying as insurance against the worst.
nb I hope you and others here are NOT suggesting that a VFR pilot with NO instrument experience is safer than one who has a level of instrument experience? The French statistics dont support that!
The IMCR which many are trying to save is being touted as a safety feature not for some sort of IR but as a safeguard for VFR pilots but that is a different topic.
The IMCR is a pretty minimal instrument flying rating which if nothing else shows that treated with respect it does have safety benefits.
Hence all you can conclude from that is that ANY instrument training has to be better than NONE!!
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 5th Feb 2010 at 10:06.
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I strongly disagree 
E.g., here is another good book on in depth understanding GPS approaches: Vasa Babic's RNAV Training Manual (PPL/IR Europe - RNAV Training Manual Order Form)
E.g., here is another good book on in depth understanding GPS approaches: Vasa Babic's RNAV Training Manual (PPL/IR Europe - RNAV Training Manual Order Form)www.pplir.org/rnavmanual
http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/...vmanual1_8.pdf
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I commend him for taking his safety seriously by exploring his options to add some instrument flying as insurance against the worst.
nb I hope you and others here are NOT suggesting that a VFR pilot with NO instrument experience is safer than one who has a level of instrument experience? The French statistics dont support that!
The IMCR which many are trying to save is being touted as a safety feature not for some sort of IR but as a safeguard for VFR pilots but that is a different topic.
The IMCR is a pretty minimal instrument flying rating which if nothing else shows that treated with respect it does have safety benefits.
Hence all you can conclude from that is that ANY instrument training has to be better than NONE!!
nb I hope you and others here are NOT suggesting that a VFR pilot with NO instrument experience is safer than one who has a level of instrument experience? The French statistics dont support that!
The IMCR which many are trying to save is being touted as a safety feature not for some sort of IR but as a safeguard for VFR pilots but that is a different topic.
The IMCR is a pretty minimal instrument flying rating which if nothing else shows that treated with respect it does have safety benefits.
Hence all you can conclude from that is that ANY instrument training has to be better than NONE!!
Now if to train up to a higher standard of IFR, my guess is that human nature will make you champ at the bit and possibly sometimes want to have a go. Its at that point you might get in deeper than bargained for, such as meeting with turbulence that begins to overload and unravel the pilot. The problem is how to keep current if you cannot legally excercise your skills that you have bought at a significant price, and be damned if I don't get my value out of it at least some of the time type of attitude. Of course we pilots are all mature sensible people well arent we
?My plan is to remain current with PPL skill level by going up with an experienced pilot that I trust, putting on the foggles while trusting his lookout and babysitting skills, and doing it back up to checkride standards.
I would love for IMCR-type availability for suitable equipped microlights, for the purposes of climbing up on top and likewise descending. That would be a useful extension of capability which I think the aircraft is suited for. Unfortunately the strict legal technical rules in place dont currently allow this nor are they ever likely to unless we get into a much more flexible but sensible way of thinking about personal responsibility, relative and proportional risk taking, aeronautical safety skills and actual aircraft capability ...dreaming on...
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I am with those who think that you should plan your flight to be either IFR or VFR and have a very clear distinction between each. It's great to have some skills just in case you get into that grey area in between the two but it really can be a very grey area in the literal sense. I appreciate that IMC training is never wasted but you need to practice it for real and legally to be safe and proficient otherwise it can provide a false sense of security. The mindset appears wrong so I think that is why there are a few flags being raised.
The problem is with some contingency training there is a tendency to push on in lowering viz and weather until all of a sudden you are now solid Imc. Once you are in solid Imc you may well be limited on options and the experience and skill level required to continue safely. This leads onto imc enroute flying and hoping that destination will be better (as forecast?), eventually though your luck will run out and you will need to safely execute an instrument approach (damn I hadn't planned for this to happen and I don't have any approach plates, now where is the nearest airfield with a suitable approach, Oh Sh&*t look at the bloody bank angle ! I don't like this !!!! What is the local MSA ? Isn't there a danger area near here ? Help !
Better to have a VFR mindset and divert early when still VFR
The problem is with some contingency training there is a tendency to push on in lowering viz and weather until all of a sudden you are now solid Imc. Once you are in solid Imc you may well be limited on options and the experience and skill level required to continue safely. This leads onto imc enroute flying and hoping that destination will be better (as forecast?), eventually though your luck will run out and you will need to safely execute an instrument approach (damn I hadn't planned for this to happen and I don't have any approach plates, now where is the nearest airfield with a suitable approach, Oh Sh&*t look at the bloody bank angle ! I don't like this !!!! What is the local MSA ? Isn't there a danger area near here ? Help !
Better to have a VFR mindset and divert early when still VFR
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legally fly IFR or in IMC,( unless he flies a glider in which case he can do what he wants in cloud
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I would not be so righteous about keeping IFR and VFR watertight.
They are totally separated in the legal sense but e.g. take a nice English summer day: 3000m vis in haze, and for extra measure you are flying across the Channel. And just to make it more interesting the sun is in your face. No horizon, you can't see a bl00dy thing.
But you are 100.000% legal VFR.
On one such "summer" (which I would consider wonderful summer flying weather because low vis doesn't bother me at all) I have seen PPL students do no flying (no x/c, no QXC, no skills tests, just banging yet more stupid circuits) for several months. That sort of thing really shows the futility of being unable to fly in instrument conditions.
Then there is night flight. I don't mean "UK PPL night flight" as 99% of UK PPLs do it which is 31 mins after the official sunset and you quickly bang off the 3 circuits before it gets properly dark. Night flight in the true sense is totally instrument flight. But it is also 100.000% legal VFR.
Go figure, as they say.
Instrument skills, sufficient for aircraft control and navigation in solid IMC, come in really handy. So don't knock someone trying to pick them up, on the grounds that he can't fly legal IFR.
They are totally separated in the legal sense but e.g. take a nice English summer day: 3000m vis in haze, and for extra measure you are flying across the Channel. And just to make it more interesting the sun is in your face. No horizon, you can't see a bl00dy thing.
But you are 100.000% legal VFR.
On one such "summer" (which I would consider wonderful summer flying weather because low vis doesn't bother me at all) I have seen PPL students do no flying (no x/c, no QXC, no skills tests, just banging yet more stupid circuits) for several months. That sort of thing really shows the futility of being unable to fly in instrument conditions.
Then there is night flight. I don't mean "UK PPL night flight" as 99% of UK PPLs do it which is 31 mins after the official sunset and you quickly bang off the 3 circuits before it gets properly dark. Night flight in the true sense is totally instrument flight. But it is also 100.000% legal VFR.
Go figure, as they say.
Instrument skills, sufficient for aircraft control and navigation in solid IMC, come in really handy. So don't knock someone trying to pick them up, on the grounds that he can't fly legal IFR.
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BelowRadar
We tend to look at what we do rather than what others do. As an example I flew into Le Touquet landing with an overcast sky cloudbase right on minima for the ILS,
I turned around and took off IFR just in time to hear a G reg homebuilt flying back VFR to the UK.
He was following the beaches past Le Touquet and had been forced down to below 200 feet. He was navigating using the sea/beach line. I had him on frequency listening to his progress as he turned towards the UK. Halfway across the channel I was relieved to hear he was climbing to 700 feet as the cloudbase had improved.
That may not be weather you would dream of flying VFR but this guy was and there are a surprising number who do get up to antics like that.
VMC on top
The answer to that is YES I nearly hit one in a twinwell documented in a long thread here but didnt you know that ?
Pace
We tend to look at what we do rather than what others do. As an example I flew into Le Touquet landing with an overcast sky cloudbase right on minima for the ILS,
I turned around and took off IFR just in time to hear a G reg homebuilt flying back VFR to the UK.
He was following the beaches past Le Touquet and had been forced down to below 200 feet. He was navigating using the sea/beach line. I had him on frequency listening to his progress as he turned towards the UK. Halfway across the channel I was relieved to hear he was climbing to 700 feet as the cloudbase had improved.
That may not be weather you would dream of flying VFR but this guy was and there are a surprising number who do get up to antics like that.
Apologies for the thread drift ....... but are there really glider pilots MENTAL enough to fly in cloud, without transponders etc. etc. ??!!
The answer to that is YES I nearly hit one in a twin
well documented in a long thread here but didnt you know that ? Pace
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I turned around and took off IFR just in time to hear a G reg homebuilt flying back VFR to the UK.
He was following the beaches past Le Touquet and had been forced down to below 200 feet. He was navigating using the sea/beach line. I had him on frequency listening to his progress as he turned towards the UK. Halfway across the channel I was relieved to hear he was climbing to 700 feet as the cloudbase had improved.
That may not be weather you would dream of flying VFR but this guy was and there are a surprising number who do get up to antics like that.
He was following the beaches past Le Touquet and had been forced down to below 200 feet. He was navigating using the sea/beach line. I had him on frequency listening to his progress as he turned towards the UK. Halfway across the channel I was relieved to hear he was climbing to 700 feet as the cloudbase had improved.
That may not be weather you would dream of flying VFR but this guy was and there are a surprising number who do get up to antics like that.