What to do if your lost?
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Joined: Jul 1997
Aviation Qualifications: PPL
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From: Europe
When you get your PPL, you get yourself a decent big GPS, read the manual, and use that for all flight, and you won't get lost. Learn to use VOR/DME and use that as a concurrent backup, and then you definitely won't get lost.
Joined: Jun 2003
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From: EuroGA.org
However, if you infringe Controlled Airspace without a clearance, who are you going to blame ?
Funnily enough the UK CAA won't give a **** how you were navigating when it happened.
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 75
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From: UK
I really disagree with relying on GPS to learn how to get yourself so you know where you are... it's just such bad practice... What do you do if your instruments fail? Or your GPS packs in? Learn the other methods... it's better to have them under your belt rather than relying on a piece of equipment that might break on you. Also, not all planes have GPS.. so if you find yourself wanting to rent an airplane are you going to say to them, "oh it doesn't have GPS, i might get lost..."
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 5,982
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From: In the boot of my car!
I really disagree with relying on GPS to learn how to get yourself so you know where you are... it's just such bad practice... What do you do if your instruments fail? Or your GPS packs in? Learn the other methods... it's better to have them under your belt rather than relying on a piece of equipment that might break on you. Also, not all planes have GPS.. so if you find yourself wanting to rent an airplane are you going to say to them, "oh it doesn't have GPS, i might get lost...
I agree with you that it is important to have all your skills available to you as you never know when you might need those skills.
We have become so used to fancy GPS displays that modern pilots can get very lazy many not even bothering with any sort of flight planning because of GPS.
I can remember flying a Citation From Nice to Gatwick in winter at night. This one was a late citation 2 with FMC and Glass displays. We had all the route loaded. It was so easy just to put in the airway entry and departure points and see a clear display of all the waypoints stream out on the glass displays together with the sids and stars.
All of a sudden all the screens went black and it was a case of out with the charts and direct to VOR requests. The thought of flying one of the numerous Gatwick arrivals conventionally was a real brain tester.
Luckely we got the system up and running before starting down into Gatwick.
It is important to have all your traditional navigation skills well honed and then add the luxury of GPS because you never know when you might need them.
Pace
"Trust Me"
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 424
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From: Egham, UK
K.I.S.S.......
Some personal events that have happened to me over the last eighteen years come to mind.......
I'm flying DR Waltham to Henstridge (I have no GPS.....
) with an experienced rotary pilot next to me....unknown to us, westerly headings on the compass are 15-20 degrees out!! A quick call to 121.5 soon puts us back on track......
I recently get radio failure about to call Farnboro radar on a trip from Waltham to Goodwood. Squawk 7600 and after landing back at Waltham they inform me that Farnboro rang them on the landline to let them know a plane with radio failure was returning!! Comforting to know it works.....
Having visited D&D some years ago, we watched as an incident with a Tornado unfold on the Scottish borders -as soon as the pilot announced his problem, various red lines appeared on their map display from slave radar stations around the country, pinpointing the problem a/c -same would happen if you squawk 7700. Another comforting event!
Flying IMC from the north back to Waltham some years ago, I inadvertently select 7700 instead of 7000 after dumping Luton Radar. When I realised I spoke to D&D to let them know it WASN'T an emergency -they said, 'yes, we saw you and thanks for letting us know.'
Just going back to the training, isn't this covered in the sillybus any more -I remember a number of practice calls, both MAYDAY and PAN -OP should talk to an instructor and go and do some -it's no big deal!!!
Oh, and K.I.S.S.?
Keep It Simple Stupid..........
PS I may be Old School -but I'm concerned at the number of posters relying on GPS......
Some personal events that have happened to me over the last eighteen years come to mind.......
I'm flying DR Waltham to Henstridge (I have no GPS.....
) with an experienced rotary pilot next to me....unknown to us, westerly headings on the compass are 15-20 degrees out!! A quick call to 121.5 soon puts us back on track......I recently get radio failure about to call Farnboro radar on a trip from Waltham to Goodwood. Squawk 7600 and after landing back at Waltham they inform me that Farnboro rang them on the landline to let them know a plane with radio failure was returning!! Comforting to know it works.....
Having visited D&D some years ago, we watched as an incident with a Tornado unfold on the Scottish borders -as soon as the pilot announced his problem, various red lines appeared on their map display from slave radar stations around the country, pinpointing the problem a/c -same would happen if you squawk 7700. Another comforting event!
Flying IMC from the north back to Waltham some years ago, I inadvertently select 7700 instead of 7000 after dumping Luton Radar. When I realised I spoke to D&D to let them know it WASN'T an emergency -they said, 'yes, we saw you and thanks for letting us know.'
Just going back to the training, isn't this covered in the sillybus any more -I remember a number of practice calls, both MAYDAY and PAN -OP should talk to an instructor and go and do some -it's no big deal!!!
Oh, and K.I.S.S.?
Keep It Simple Stupid..........
PS I may be Old School -but I'm concerned at the number of posters relying on GPS......
Guest
Posts: n/a
Mmmmm.....
The normal anti technology bias from some posters on this thread.
IMHO, one should not rely on any single form of navigation, but should have at least 2-3 sources to cross check.
For example, relying on a compass when flying DR is asking for a problem - we've all probably done it on short flights, but nonetheless it isn't good practice IMHO.
If cross checking compass/GPS, that problem will soon be spotted.
Likewise, if the GPS freezes, comparison of the chart timings/positions will soon highight that problem, too.
For me, a combination of DR, GPS, pilotage and VOR is a reasonable solution, backed up by 121.5 and the training fix system (not to be absued, but it is there - I have used it once since qualifying in 1994 and it helped to avoid an infringement of the Stansted zone.
If it all goes horribly pear shaped, then an early pan or mayday should be made.
The normal anti technology bias from some posters on this thread.
IMHO, one should not rely on any single form of navigation, but should have at least 2-3 sources to cross check.
For example, relying on a compass when flying DR is asking for a problem - we've all probably done it on short flights, but nonetheless it isn't good practice IMHO.
If cross checking compass/GPS, that problem will soon be spotted.
Likewise, if the GPS freezes, comparison of the chart timings/positions will soon highight that problem, too.
For me, a combination of DR, GPS, pilotage and VOR is a reasonable solution, backed up by 121.5 and the training fix system (not to be absued, but it is there - I have used it once since qualifying in 1994 and it helped to avoid an infringement of the Stansted zone.
If it all goes horribly pear shaped, then an early pan or mayday should be made.
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 13,787
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From: EuroGA.org
Let's ban the internet. It's dangerous - you might find the weather is OK to fly, get airborne, and then get caught in some nasty stuff, and die. If there was no internet, you would have lived.
QED.
QED.
Joined: May 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 27,401
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From: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
Properly used, GPS will certainly reduce the chance of getting 'lost', I agree. But it's still vulnerable to 'Gi-Go' if used incorrectly.
As a minimum, I personally like a line on a paper map as well even when using a GPS route.
If you DO become lost, admit it. Then seek help. All the old 'percentage of distance flown since last position fix' stuff was fine in the days of few airways and Tiger Moths without wireless, but will probably be a waste of time nowadays and you'd inevitably end up somewhere uninvited! Far better to tell whoever you're talking to (if they have radar); if not then the nice chaps at D&D will help to keep you out of the smelly stuff. A low time, relatively inexperienced pilot uncertain of his/her position in the south east UK probably does merit an 'urgency' call, I would suggest.
As a minimum, I personally like a line on a paper map as well even when using a GPS route.
If you DO become lost, admit it. Then seek help. All the old 'percentage of distance flown since last position fix' stuff was fine in the days of few airways and Tiger Moths without wireless, but will probably be a waste of time nowadays and you'd inevitably end up somewhere uninvited! Far better to tell whoever you're talking to (if they have radar); if not then the nice chaps at D&D will help to keep you out of the smelly stuff. A low time, relatively inexperienced pilot uncertain of his/her position in the south east UK probably does merit an 'urgency' call, I would suggest.
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,170
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From: Abroad
I agree totally. However, if you infringe Controlled Airspace without a clearance, who are you going to blame ?
How would you infringe CAS with a clearance?
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,170
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From: Abroad
I really disagree with relying on GPS to learn how to get yourself so you know where you are... it's just such bad practice...
Not to dismiss any truth in your statement out of hand, but it sounds a bit naïve, on the "this is what my instructor told me so it must be true" side. If you care to read a few pages back you will see that it's been mentioned that for your PPL (and CPL) you should be taught to use everything you've got in your aircraft, GPS included. Once you're out there in the big world, a busy arrival at some big airport in IMC in a fast aircraft is really not the time to start mucking about with VORs and ADFs. In real-world flying a GPS will quickly become your best friend, so forget whatever crap your instructor might have fed you.
This from someone who does not use GPS for flying (enough of it on my day job)--I like my steam gauges, and if the place where I end up on looks distinctly unlike my intended destination, well so be it. I fly just for the fun of it and I'm not really that bothered
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 13,787
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From: EuroGA.org
I personally like a line on a paper map as well even when using a GPS route.
There is persistent pilot forum rumour that people actually do that, but I don't know anybody (with a brain, and a PPL) who does that.
Myself, on every flight, a short VFR hop or a 900nm airways route, always carry a whole-route printout, enroute 1"=10nm sections (on long trips), and a plog.
Not a wind corrected plog, mind you... because I plan to always use radio nav. If the GPS satellites got shot down by Putin, I would use VORs (and advise ATC), and if I got a total electrical failure I would use the Garmin 496 in the yoke and fly the filed route by sticking one waypoint in after another, off the printed plog, using DCT.
By deviating from it?
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 267
Likes: 31
From: UK
Another option which hasn't been mentioned yet: get yourself an IR
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,729
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From: 75N 16E
Why do people assume that GPS users "rely" on GPS and lose all sense of airmanship?
When VFR I have my map too.....I'll look down at a town and cross reference the town with my map and GPS. I can then look into the distance and say "right, that is town X" and verify with map and GPS and even if my GPS failed I'd know where I was.
Likewise when flying an instrument approach, say VOR, I'd have the nav gear setup using the VOR and cross reference that to GPS / moving map. If my GPS had the ability I'd sequence the VOR approach in GPS too. Makes life much safer.
If I am going somewhere long distance then I'd take a plog generated on the PC using current winds - mainly for the fuel calcs. Short distances I may take one or may not....
When VFR I have my map too.....I'll look down at a town and cross reference the town with my map and GPS. I can then look into the distance and say "right, that is town X" and verify with map and GPS and even if my GPS failed I'd know where I was.
Likewise when flying an instrument approach, say VOR, I'd have the nav gear setup using the VOR and cross reference that to GPS / moving map. If my GPS had the ability I'd sequence the VOR approach in GPS too. Makes life much safer.
If I am going somewhere long distance then I'd take a plog generated on the PC using current winds - mainly for the fuel calcs. Short distances I may take one or may not....
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 519
Likes: 16
From: Luton
Once you're out there in the big world, a busy arrival at some big airport in IMC in a fast aircraft is really not the time to start mucking about with VORs and ADFs.
Ummm.
This is getting off topic somewhat but should not be allowed to pass without some comment. Unless you are arriving at the one and only UK airfield with an approved GPS instrument approach (Shoreham) then unless you are doing an SRA or ILS approach then VOR or ADF are your only other legal (and safe) options. Last time I went into Southampton in IMC I used the VOR and ignored the GPS in the cockpit.
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,631
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From: UK
How many critical components do we rely on?
1. The engine - now if you have only got one, its pretty critical,
2. The pilot - ah yes, pretty critical and there is only one of those as well,
3. The prop - not a lot of good when part of a bade detaches,
4. Even the throttle cable - it concentrates the mind when it snaps and the engine stays where you last put it,
5. Etc
We love system duality. That is why we usually have two fuel pumps, and two mags. There is a chance of the GPS failing, or the MDF going blank, but there is not much chance of that happening at the same time as the backup GPS in your bag failing.
Simple, by all means rely on GPS for navigation, but if you do, go to the small expense of taking a spare with you.
I bet if you do the engine or the pilot or the prop will quit long before both GPS units quit at the same time.
Now how much redundancy do you want?
As for big boys flying instruments with GA glass cockpits these days about the only nav instruments you are going to be left with when the sh** hits the fan is the magnetic compass so best you check the backup GPS in your flight bag works.
1. The engine - now if you have only got one, its pretty critical,
2. The pilot - ah yes, pretty critical and there is only one of those as well,
3. The prop - not a lot of good when part of a bade detaches,
4. Even the throttle cable - it concentrates the mind when it snaps and the engine stays where you last put it,
5. Etc
We love system duality. That is why we usually have two fuel pumps, and two mags. There is a chance of the GPS failing, or the MDF going blank, but there is not much chance of that happening at the same time as the backup GPS in your bag failing.
Simple, by all means rely on GPS for navigation, but if you do, go to the small expense of taking a spare with you.
I bet if you do the engine or the pilot or the prop will quit long before both GPS units quit at the same time.
Now how much redundancy do you want?
As for big boys flying instruments with GA glass cockpits these days about the only nav instruments you are going to be left with when the sh** hits the fan is the magnetic compass so best you check the backup GPS in your flight bag works.
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 519
Likes: 16
From: Luton
Last time I went into Southampton in IMC I used the VOR and ignored the GPS in the cockpit.
Now there's a great piece of safety management.
Now there's a great piece of safety management.