What to do if your lost?
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 762
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
LH2
As you can see from the posts, you are wrong.
A FIS does not tell you if you are lost.
If you do not believe me or others call Goodwood, Shoreham or any others who offer a FIS and ask them for your position. You will not get what you asked for. Yes I know you may be outside the UK but your statement was generic.
So again, be careful posting inaccurate information.
And before you post back please look up the definition of FIS .
A FIS does not tell you if you are lost.
If you do not believe me or others call Goodwood, Shoreham or any others who offer a FIS and ask them for your position. You will not get what you asked for. Yes I know you may be outside the UK but your statement was generic.
So again, be careful posting inaccurate information.
And before you post back please look up the definition of FIS .
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: England
Posts: 551
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
While reading this thread, it's dawned on me that I don't actually know how to address D&D when you call them up! (Never came up in my training.) In an emergency, I'm sure anything would do, but what's their formal call sign?
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hotel this week, hotel next week, home whenever...
Posts: 1,492
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In the U.K., South of 55deg North its London Centre, North of 55deg North it's Scottish Centre. Elsewhere, I have no experience therefore shall refrain from commenting.
But you're correct. If you're in the brown sticky smelly stuff just holler!
But you're correct. If you're in the brown sticky smelly stuff just holler!
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Abroad
Posts: 1,172
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Backacker,
Yes of course. I never said it was a practical or efficient way of not getting lost, or that it didn't potentially come with repercussions. 
DD,
Yes, that's a good point. I was thinking in terms of London and Scottish Information only.
Ok, so in a half-serious note, the point is you should try to have someone on the radio at all times and speak to them.
Another option which hasn't been mentioned yet: get yourself an IR and always fly IFR (in CAS, etc., etc., the way it's supposed to be done). That way chances are you will only ever be lost during the departure/arrival while trying to follow those stupid SIDs, etc.
Going off on a tangent, any examples of pilots getting lost flying en-route IFR? Actual examples please--I'm aware of many things that can potentially go wrong, but I'd like to hear about actual cases.
But in any case if you're being given a FIS, the controller has no way of knowing directly that you're about to enter controlled airspace. They need to be informed by someone else
DD,
In the UK a FIS (FLIGHT INFORMATION SERVICE) can come from anyone qualified to provide one and that CAN BE a non-radar/procedural service
Ok, so in a half-serious note, the point is you should try to have someone on the radio at all times and speak to them.
Another option which hasn't been mentioned yet: get yourself an IR and always fly IFR (in CAS, etc., etc., the way it's supposed to be done). That way chances are you will only ever be lost during the departure/arrival while trying to follow those stupid SIDs, etc.
Going off on a tangent, any examples of pilots getting lost flying en-route IFR? Actual examples please--I'm aware of many things that can potentially go wrong, but I'd like to hear about actual cases.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: In a thriving maritime community
Posts: 160
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You can be on a FIS from a FIS unit, (Scottish Information for example) and in that case they'll have no radar picture of where you are.
You can also be on a FIS from a radar unit, and even be radar identified. being identified does not imply receiving a radar service (you could be outside the area of responsibility, or below terrain safe altitude)
If you're talking to a radar ATC unit, there's no need to squawk 7700. Just tell them you are lost, you can be easily identified (especially if transponder equipped) and provided with the most accurate fix.
Failing that, you can get a VDF fix.
Being lost per se is not gonna kill anybody. Entering IMC when not qualified, will.
I'd rather a VFR only pilot entered CAS without clearance, rather than enter IMC. It's easier to deal with an infringement than a CFIT.
You can also be on a FIS from a radar unit, and even be radar identified. being identified does not imply receiving a radar service (you could be outside the area of responsibility, or below terrain safe altitude)
If you're talking to a radar ATC unit, there's no need to squawk 7700. Just tell them you are lost, you can be easily identified (especially if transponder equipped) and provided with the most accurate fix.
Failing that, you can get a VDF fix.
Being lost per se is not gonna kill anybody. Entering IMC when not qualified, will.
I'd rather a VFR only pilot entered CAS without clearance, rather than enter IMC. It's easier to deal with an infringement than a CFIT.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 4,598
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
get yourself an IR and always fly IFR
pilots getting lost flying en-route IFR
(Have to admit this was not en-route IFR though, but the same mistake could have happened en-route.)
Oh, and in the last year alone I can remember two F16 scrambles for a commercial aircraft entering the Dutch FIR without radio contact. As this is one of the few scenarios where those guys are allowed to break Mach 1 while over land, it was a big new item - half of the Netherlands heard the sonic booms.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: 75N 16E
Age: 54
Posts: 4,729
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I haven't read the entire post as most of it is probably highly predictable 
However, there is only one safe course of action. Find a field, and put the kite down in it then wander to the nearest petrol station to ask for directions. You could also use this time on the ground to stop for a picnic before you head on your way if you liked, I'm sure the local farmer would provide a scrumptious Ploughmans.....
Of course if you live in the 21st centaury rather than the 1930's, you could whip out your GPS and it'd tell you 5 times per second where you are.....
However, there is only one safe course of action. Find a field, and put the kite down in it then wander to the nearest petrol station to ask for directions. You could also use this time on the ground to stop for a picnic before you head on your way if you liked, I'm sure the local farmer would provide a scrumptious Ploughmans.....
Of course if you live in the 21st centaury rather than the 1930's, you could whip out your GPS and it'd tell you 5 times per second where you are.....
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: England
Posts: 551
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Duchess_Driver
In the U.K., South of 55deg North its London Centre, North of 55deg North it's Scottish Centre.
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Abroad
Posts: 1,172
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BP,
I was talking about becoming lost en-route. But since you ask, I suppose you could always do barrel rolls while following an airway, snap turns at the turning points, and don't call for descent until overhead your destination, then you practise your spins. Easy. 
Thanks, but as you mention, that was during the arrival phase. What I've asked for were examples of actual disorientation en-route. I'm pretty sure I've come across such instances before, but right now I can't think of any except cases of poor INS performance on commercial flights, hence why I'm asking.
I understand it's quite a common occurrence, but they're not lost at such, just a little behind the aeroplane 
Anyway, I should have specifically asked about GA examples. Perhaps it would be better to start off another thread though.
Englishal,
GPS takes all the fun out of being lost, which is why this thread by and large pretends it doesn't exist, just like the JAR teaching syllabus does.
How do I file an IFR flightplan for aerobatics?
American Airlines Flight 965
in the last year alone I can remember two F16 scrambles for a commercial aircraft entering the Dutch FIR without radio contact
Anyway, I should have specifically asked about GA examples. Perhaps it would be better to start off another thread though.
Englishal,
GPS takes all the fun out of being lost, which is why this thread by and large pretends it doesn't exist, just like the JAR teaching syllabus does.
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Brighton, UK
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It might be just me, but...
I have only 5:45 P/uT in my log book and the last of that was 3 years ago. The only nav work I've done to date has been from the right hand seat of somebody elses aeroplane. I'm also a total geek and very much in favour of using the very best that modern technology has to offer, however there is something strangely satisfying about the whole process of plotting the route, checking the metforms and notams, putting the plog together and then on the day, flying a heading at an IAS for a period of time and seeing the waypoints come up where they are supposed to.
I'm sure it's a lot less relaxing when on yer lonesome in the cockpit - that would be the time when I'd be mighty glad of at least one GPS unit!
I have only 5:45 P/uT in my log book and the last of that was 3 years ago. The only nav work I've done to date has been from the right hand seat of somebody elses aeroplane. I'm also a total geek and very much in favour of using the very best that modern technology has to offer, however there is something strangely satisfying about the whole process of plotting the route, checking the metforms and notams, putting the plog together and then on the day, flying a heading at an IAS for a period of time and seeing the waypoints come up where they are supposed to.
I'm sure it's a lot less relaxing when on yer lonesome in the cockpit - that would be the time when I'd be mighty glad of at least one GPS unit!
Can't Resist the temptation to repeat the famous quote from one particular USAF pilot
" You have never been lost until you have been lost in an SR71 Blackbird"
" You have never been lost until you have been lost in an SR71 Blackbird"
On the thread topic, really the answer is you shouldn't be out on your own until you CAN'T get lost. Even without GPS you have VOR, DME, ... and of course you DO have GPS (or if you don't then you're choosing to get lost every bit as much as if you took off with no charts). But even without GPS, assuming you keep a VOR tuned, better yet two of them, and keep an eye on them, you will not get lost.
Of course if we are in our mythical no-electrics Piper Cub or Tiger Moth, then you'd just better be paying close attention to roads and railways. Bodies of water are about the most helpful thing, in England at least. (Here in California we have mountains which make it a lot easier to figure out where you are, though also a lot more important).
n5296S
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 762
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
12kphil
With that attitude the chances are you will not find yourself getting lost.
I used to spend hours with students making sure they knew how to plot, read maps etc. Then once they get theie PPL they get a GPS and when they launched off, I could not see a line or time/event waypoint anywhere. One statement I got was 'the batteries on my GPS went half way round and I had no idea where I was'.
So carry on map reading, for all our sakes.
I used to spend hours with students making sure they knew how to plot, read maps etc. Then once they get theie PPL they get a GPS and when they launched off, I could not see a line or time/event waypoint anywhere. One statement I got was 'the batteries on my GPS went half way round and I had no idea where I was'.
So carry on map reading, for all our sakes.
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Down the airway.
Posts: 689
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
On that stream of thought....
I wonder how many of the airline pilots today flying with A/P engaged, make it easy, can take a Jepp chart and plot two VOR radials to give an approximate fix in event of total FMS failure-and do it before they have gone charging through German Corner?
I wonder how many of the airline pilots today flying with A/P engaged, make it easy, can take a Jepp chart and plot two VOR radials to give an approximate fix in event of total FMS failure-and do it before they have gone charging through German Corner?
On that stream of thought....
I wonder how many of the airline pilots today flying with A/P engaged, make it easy, can take a Jepp chart and plot two VOR radials to give an approximate fix in event of total FMS failure-and do it before they have gone charging through German Corner?
I wonder how many of the airline pilots today flying with A/P engaged, make it easy, can take a Jepp chart and plot two VOR radials to give an approximate fix in event of total FMS failure-and do it before they have gone charging through German Corner?
Moderator
Join Date: Jul 1997
Location: Europe
Posts: 3,228
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you squawk 0030 (which means FIR Lost) D&D will know immediately what your problem is (unlike 7700) and where you are before you even speak to them on 121.5. Once they've "got hold of you" you'll be instructed to select 0031 (FIR Found) or a discrete D&D squawk.
0030 is in the SSR Code Allocation Plan.
0030 is in the SSR Code Allocation Plan.
If you do become lost, then D&D advise you to initially report your lost status with the ATC unit you are in contact with. They can then co-ordinate a plan of action with D&D to provide appropriate assistance. Squawk as instructed by ATC. If you are not in contact with anyone, then D&D are more than happy to take your call on 121.5. Further, if you are making your lost call initially on 121.5 AND you think you might be in CAS somewhere, they have absolutely no problem with you squawking 7700 immediately. This will not only alert them quickly about your possible aircraft position, it will also alert other ATC units who can then take action to safeguard their traffic before further co-ordinated action is taken by D&D. The important thing is for everyone to recognise that your aircraft is in difficulty (even if only navigational) and to ensure that everyone else is kept safely away from you. The exact nature of your problem will become apparent to affected ATC units as things develop, and as D&D carry out the job they are highly trained for.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: UK
Age: 38
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm doing my PPL at the moment and i'm soon to go on my solo nav. I'd be quite worried after passing my PPL if I got lost and didn't know how to get back on track. Perhaps you should give your original instructor a call instead of getting LOTS of mixed ideas about what to do some of which are probably incorrect. You shoudn't need to call an ATC, that's for sure!
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think I have said this before, but nobody should worry unduly about getting lost.
On your within-PPL-training solo flights, the route will be carefully chosen to be really obvious and in good weather only. Your instructor is responsible for you and he doesn't want any comeback.
When you get your PPL, you get yourself a decent big GPS, read the manual, and use that for all flight, and you won't get lost. Learn to use VOR/DME and use that as a concurrent backup, and then you definitely won't get lost.
On your within-PPL-training solo flights, the route will be carefully chosen to be really obvious and in good weather only. Your instructor is responsible for you and he doesn't want any comeback.
When you get your PPL, you get yourself a decent big GPS, read the manual, and use that for all flight, and you won't get lost. Learn to use VOR/DME and use that as a concurrent backup, and then you definitely won't get lost.