What to do if your lost?

[Hyperborean]

Re Lister Noble's "Big Picture," with my instructor it was "The Concrete Radial," ie the motorway. Sensible advice. Unless you have been lost for a very long time without noticing anything, you will not be far from where you ought to be so any prominent geographical feature will give you a clue. Otherwise I'm in the tell somebody camp. It's better to call up, either the unit you have been working or D&D, and put them in the picture. Thereafter any one who criticises you is an a*^%$@le.

[FlyingOfficerKite]

Yes, always a good idea to read peoples profiles!

LOL

KR

FOK

PS: The only times I have been 'uncertain of position' have occurred in good vis. Must be a moral there - maybe you become more complacent when it all looks well and take your eye off the ball?!

[Duchess_Driver]

Chilli...

Sorry mate, not trying to teach you to suck eggs.......

I have never been told during my training, nor do any of my fellow instructors advocate setting 7700 as a first or early action...... Sorry, but from my perspective D&D (great fella's, sterling service) are not at the top of the list of 'Things to do when your lost' I teach.....

If you're 50 miles away from where you should be then, I'm afraid, it's refresher training for you when you land!


DD

[Chilli Monster]

Sorry, but from my perspective D&D (great fella's, sterling service) are not at the top of the list of 'Things to do when your lost' I teach.....

I think we need to clear up something here.

What you're teaching, and explaining here, is "things to do when unsure of position"

What I'm advocating is "things to do when you're lost" (the title of he thread).

There is a difference - lost is when you've exhausted all the options that you were taught during your PPL (those that you can remember) and it's time to bite the bullet. I sincerely hope you and your fellow instructors ARE teaching this because having someone going round in circles, 6 miles out and blocking the ILS, trying to work out where they are and not accepting they are lost is REALLY annoying

[Duchess_Driver]

Training fixes are demonstrated and the students are given the opportunity to practice, provided D&D have the time - and, like I said, great service they give.

Sorry, but to me, lost or uncertain of position - I'm sure the differences are minor if you are 6 miles out on the ILS - that's why emphasis is placed on sorting the problem out earlier rather than later.

[Chilli Monster]

that's why emphasis is placed on sorting the problem out earlier rather than later.

Ok - scenario time.

You (not you personally, just a generic "you") realise you're unsure of your position, you start thinking of all the things you were taught, but before you get the chance to put them into action you notice the big runway, big terminal, big aircraft parked outside it.

You don't know where it is, and so you've just gone from "unsure of position" to "lost" very quickly (if you still want to say unsure of position then fine, but the solution is still going to be the same) - who you going to call? Are you going to ask someone for a VDF bearing? Are you going to stare at the chart and then start panicking as to who you're going to call? Are you going to start dialling up VOR's and trying to work out where you are?

NO - YOU'RE IN THE $HIT AND YOU NEED TO SORT IT SHARPISH.

121.5 / 7700

[Duchess_Driver]

Me thinks that you're stretching the discussion......

I accept that there are circumstances where you need to adapt your philosphy a little.

Now, I'll stretch my point a little ..... if every aircraft that was lost/uncertain of position went 121.5 / 7700 at the first moment they aren't exactly where they think they are you'd have every training detail and, I suspect a fair number of PPL pilots on frequency within a short space of time.

[jonkil]

Originally Posted by Chilli Monster

but before you get the chance to put them into action you notice the big runway, big terminal, big aircraft parked outside it.

Yes folks, you are really lost, you have reached the good old U S of A.... everything is big there.

Coat/Door/Run

[Chilli Monster]

Now, I'll stretch my point a little ..... if every aircraft that was lost/uncertain of position went 121.5 / 7700 at the first moment they aren't exactly where they think they are you'd have every training detail and, I suspect a fair number of PPL pilots on frequency within a short space of time.

But I'm not advocating that - go back and read my earlier post re: difference between "unsure of position" and "lost".

[IO540]

Uncertain of position is the CAA approved phrase - necessary because they preside over a training syllabus where this occurs frequently, and they cannot openly admit the syllabus is not up to the job of getting around modern airspace.

Lost is the actual outcome.

[Duchess_Driver]

Cake and eat it.......

For clarity, you said.....

There is a difference - lost is when you've exhausted all the options that you were taught during your PPL (those that you can remember) and it's time to bite the bullet.

Then your scenario....

"You (not you personally, just a generic "you") realise you're unsure of your position, you start thinking of all the things you were taught, but before you get the chance to put them into action you notice the big runway, big terminal, big aircraft parked outside it.

Still only 'unsure of my position' here....stilll options to explore....

You don't know where it is, and so you've just gone from "unsure of position" to "lost" very quickly ........

By your definition, nope....still options to explore....still only unsure.....whose to say those big shiny jets aren't parked up at Exeter, Norwich or some other airport with instrument approaches but no CAS.....

Again, I accept your point of view and do advocate a fair degree of common sense and flexibility - but sorry to say I am not in favour of a blanket 'shoot first, ask questions later' approach to fixing position.

...

[FlyingOfficerKite]

nickyboy007

I think you should refer to published documents.

This is becoming something of a tennis match and will only serve to confuse you further.

KR

FOK

[Chilli Monster]

By your definition, nope....still options to explore....still only unsure.....whose to say those big shiny jets aren't parked up at Exeter, Norwich or some other airport with instrument approaches but no CAS.....

Ok, now you're scaring me, and I dread the thought of coming across one of your students. Who's to say it isn't Stansted, Heathrow, Bristol, East Midlands, Birmingham etc.

By your reasoning you're still going to sit there trying to work out where you are, when the possibility is you COULD be an infringer. Is it going to hurt to make sure using the method I've said - NO. Is it going to get you out of trouble quickly - YES!

I'm not saying "shoot first, ask questions later" as you describe it - But I'll say it simply so that, hopefully, you start to understand what's been said because you seem to be having problems with that.

UNSURE OF POSITION - do what you've been taught by the likes of yourself.

HOWEVER

If you can't work out where you are by using those techniques, or you think, by the odd clue, that you are somewhere you shouldn't be, then you are no longer unsure of position, you are LOST

LOST = 121.5 / 7700

[Pace]

Uncertain of position is the CAA approved phrase - necessary because they preside over a training syllabus where this occurs frequently, and they cannot openly admit the syllabus is not up to the job of getting around modern airspace.

Lost is the actual outcome.

Oh dear ! uncertain of position can mean both. Uncertain of position and lost.

There was a tragic accident many moons ago where a VFR pilot on top of a solid overcast was uncertain of position.

The poor soul thought he was over the UK but when they traced him his uncertain of position was 200 nm over the north atlantic with no fuel to get back (sadly true)

Uncertain of position means quickly being certain of position by hook or by crook as both are the same.

Pace

[fireflybob]

I have only recently gained my PPL license and like to have figure out what I would do in different situations. I am trying to put together the best procedure if i were to get lost.

nickboy007, full marks for asking but Lost Procedure is part of the PPL Syllabus so should have been taught as part of your PPL Course! If this wasn't covered I suggest you go back to your FTO and ask a) to take you through Lost Procedure and b) why, as this is in the syllabus, it was not covered!

Chilli Monster knows what he is talking about - read, learn, mark and inwardly digest!

[Crash one]

Shirley it cannot be reasuring to a new PPL to have an instructor argue the toss with the very person who would be there to help, & probably has far more experience of actual "lost" situations than the most highly qualified instructor of simulated "lost" situations. Fr instance what about the panic factor? you can't simulate that.
Scary stuff.

[NudgingSteel]

With regard to the 7700 squawk - some radars are set to filter out 7000 squawks, especially round TMA areas where there is lots of Class G airspace underneath controlled airspace. Without Mode C altitude reporting, we in ATC can assume you're outside controlled airspace (with certain caveats). 7700 breaks through all filters and calls attention to a problem, which is absolutely fine by me. (Not entirely necessary if you're great VMC with no other problems, though, as any ATC unit you call is likely to put you on a squawk for identification).

If I got a PAN call from somebody who was lost in my neck of the woods I'd be only too happy to identify your position and: a) help you find your way to a safe landing, and b) not have to stop departures, break several airliners off the approach and put them back to the hold to avoid an unknown contact in the zone. Take a look at the 'Fly on Track' website for some actual radar recordings of this happening.

And remember, everybody makes mistakes because we're just human after all! Seeking assistance at the earliest opportunity is a sign of wisdom, not weakness, and you certainly won't get criticised for that...

[bigfoot01]

Can somebody who is lost...

...also be uncertain of their postion, or is lost a position?

Banter aside, I would recommend learning to use the GPS well before relying on it. In my relatively early days (still really early days to be honest!) I flew up with a little GPS and didn't really understand the difference between course deviation and bearing pointer. I knew where my waypoing was, by a function of the M1, but it was disconcerting apparently to have the GPS pointing in an entirely random, but fixed direction with some bar breaking in the middle. Hey ho, you navigate, you fly, you land, and you are glad to get the door open to allow the smell to go away...

These days, I have an excellent little HP Travel Companion (cheap as chips these days with Tomtom cornering the Road GPS Market). Built in gps; red spot on where you are and I don't think it makes me a bad person. I do enjoy my fling more, knowing it's there.

[P.Pilcher]

In days of yore when I was learning to fly, I was quite pleased with my mapreading ability one day when an experienced PPL had taken me for a fairly long jolly to the extent that he was uncertain of his position and I was able to point this out to him on the map that I was readng. The following weekend the weather was nice so I decided to have a go on my own. With instructor's authority to do a simple no land away triangle, I confidently took off, turned on to calculated heading and looked for ground features. The aircraft I was in kept turning left didn't it and before long I was similarly uncertain of my position. Oops! I knew I would have to admit it as I could have been close to the controlled airspace of my local "big" airfield. With much sinking feeling in my stomach, I pressed the button and, on a crystal clear day requested a QDM. This was immediately given, I turned onto the given heading and saw my home airfield in the distance! Within a few minutes I had accurately identified my position as well clear of the control zone concerned and went on to complete my flight.
When I got back to the club, I was anticipating a load of ribbing about having to request a QDM on a gin clear day, but nothing happened. I didn't bother to mention it to my authorising instructor either, but by jove I learned from it!
In future years when I heard similar happening on the radio as an instructor, I always made a point of complimenting the student pilot concerned for good airmanship. Those who requested a "QDM - I know where I am but just want to test the system" received an almost as enthusiastic compliment for good airmanship. The radio is your friend, and ATC are there to help.
Think what it was like in the days when no light aircraft carried radio - they managed!

P.P.

[Pace]

Think what it was like in the days when no light aircraft carried radio - they managed!

PP The fact is nowadays we are spoilt for choice and there is no sensible reason why we should be lost. Radar services, GPS, nav aids.

Years ago they had none of that not even radios and had to work harder. On the flip side we are more likely to fly into controlled airspace and the airspace is more controlled.

But yes there is no sensible reason to get lost today and even if you do there are plenty of ways to un loose yourself.

Pace