Faa Ir
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As a UK PPL I had considered going down the road of an FAA IR as I really did not think I would be capable of or @rsed with doing all the UK CAA theory/ground school/exams and then all the 50 hours flight training.
I had even found a UK FAA training school to do most of the practical with and then was going to nip over to the US to finish it off. This seemed all within my comfort zone and I was then going to put my G reg a/c onto the N reg and it was all good.
I then heard about and met with a bunch of other like minded PPLs via the Flyer Forum and teamed up with them to go the UK CAA PPL/IR route and have recently qualified (I think there are around 6 or 7 of us that have finished so far).
The theory is easily doable by distance learning (used CATS who have an excellent on-line study guide and question bank) and only a couple of days classroom was required in total, all 7 exams were easily passed in a
couple of sittings. It was really no big deal!
I then went on to do the practical in my own a/c and enjoyed (most of it) immensly!
Don't dismiss the CAA route as impractical, it may be a slightly dearer option but I'm 52 years old, self employed and busy - believe me that if I can do it anyone can!!!
I had even found a UK FAA training school to do most of the practical with and then was going to nip over to the US to finish it off. This seemed all within my comfort zone and I was then going to put my G reg a/c onto the N reg and it was all good.
I then heard about and met with a bunch of other like minded PPLs via the Flyer Forum and teamed up with them to go the UK CAA PPL/IR route and have recently qualified (I think there are around 6 or 7 of us that have finished so far).
The theory is easily doable by distance learning (used CATS who have an excellent on-line study guide and question bank) and only a couple of days classroom was required in total, all 7 exams were easily passed in a
couple of sittings. It was really no big deal!
I then went on to do the practical in my own a/c and enjoyed (most of it) immensly!
Don't dismiss the CAA route as impractical, it may be a slightly dearer option but I'm 52 years old, self employed and busy - believe me that if I can do it anyone can!!!
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Rnav.us is Captain Thomas P Hughston of previously businessair.us and faaeurope.us
FAA UK CORPORATE AVIATION FLIGHT TESTING, FLIGHT TRAINING AND LASERGRADE TESTING FACILITY
FAA UK CORPORATE AVIATION FLIGHT TESTING, FLIGHT TRAINING AND LASERGRADE TESTING FACILITY
FAA UK CORPORATE AVIATION FLIGHT TESTING, FLIGHT TRAINING AND LASERGRADE TESTING FACILITY and many others...
FAA Europe ltd is now Rnav Europe Ltd.
FAA UK CORPORATE AVIATION FLIGHT TESTING, FLIGHT TRAINING AND LASERGRADE TESTING FACILITY
FAA UK CORPORATE AVIATION FLIGHT TESTING, FLIGHT TRAINING AND LASERGRADE TESTING FACILITY
FAA UK CORPORATE AVIATION FLIGHT TESTING, FLIGHT TRAINING AND LASERGRADE TESTING FACILITY and many others...
FAA Europe ltd is now Rnav Europe Ltd.
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PeterD - sure it can be done. Thousands of airline pilots have got there, after all.
But, out of about 20-30 who (IIRC) started in that Flyer group about 2 years ago,
that is an astonishingly poor success rate and reflects the collective hassle involved.
The FAA material can be wholly self studied. No "school" to go to.
The FAA training can be done by any freelance FAA CFI/CFII. No "professional school" to go to.
The FAA training can be done at any airfield. No need to travel to Bournemouth, Cranfield, Cambridge, etc, just because you have to be at these places to learn the airway routes which the CAA examiners always use. I would bet the majority of UK pilots would have to do hotel residence to get the JAA IR, even though there is a perfectly good airfield down the road.
The FAA instrument training can be done under the hood. No need for CAA approved screens.
The FAA instrument training can be done in VMC i.e. OCAS. Only the 250nm x/c flight needs to be (in Europe) in the Eurocontrol airways system. The JAA IR is trained in the airways but they still somehow amazingly manage to fail to teach people how to plan and execute a real flight in real weather on real Eurocontrol routes from say Lydd to Corfu.
The FAA exams are just one for PPL, one for IR, one for CPL, one for ATPL. You can sit them in several places in Europe (Flight Safety in Farnborough do them, I think). The CAA ones must be done at Gatwick, on the CAA exam timetable. The JAA exams are 7 for the PPL, 7 for the PPL/IR, 14 for the CPL/IR. The JAA ATP is not achievable due to the MCC time.
The plane you train in can be your own. No need for CAA-approved screens.
All previous training, from anywhere in the world, counts. So you can get a standalone FAA PPL in just a few hours' additional training, using your old JAA logbook entries. (Got to watch the FAA night requirements though). JAA licenses/ratings allow zero, zilch from previous training/experience. (Exception: ICAO PPL to JAA PPL conversion; the 100-hr partial concession).
Finally, the cost of doing a JAA PPL/IR in the UK, especially an ME PPL/IR, could be 2x to 3x higher than doing the same in the USA. Just look at self fly hire rates on piston twins, at the professional schools over here. Put that together with the FAA allowing previous instrument time (most UK pilots going FAA are previously UK PPL/IMC) and you will be looking at doing 55hrs here for just the IR, versus say 25hrs (previous instrument competence assumed) in FAA-land for the whole PPL/IR. The cost difference is huge.
What is not so bad is doing a JAA PPL/IR if one already has the FAA IR. The 50/55hrs flight requirement shrinks to 15 and the mandatory classroom attendance goes away. A lot of that Flyer group were doing just that - yet most still seem to have dropped out.
There are also effective strategies for the JAA exams. You get hold of a copy of the question bank, revise a bit, sit the 9 exams at Gatwick in one session, see which you failed, and revise thoroughly just for those and sit one more session. The absence of an oral exam in JAA is what makes this possible; most of the crap can be safely forgotten.
Anyway, it's all been written before
But it's horses for courses. The FAA route is very much for high time high currency owner pilots. Not worth doing otherwise.
But, out of about 20-30 who (IIRC) started in that Flyer group about 2 years ago,
I think there are around 6 or 7 of us that have finished so far
The FAA material can be wholly self studied. No "school" to go to.
The FAA training can be done by any freelance FAA CFI/CFII. No "professional school" to go to.
The FAA training can be done at any airfield. No need to travel to Bournemouth, Cranfield, Cambridge, etc, just because you have to be at these places to learn the airway routes which the CAA examiners always use. I would bet the majority of UK pilots would have to do hotel residence to get the JAA IR, even though there is a perfectly good airfield down the road.
The FAA instrument training can be done under the hood. No need for CAA approved screens.
The FAA instrument training can be done in VMC i.e. OCAS. Only the 250nm x/c flight needs to be (in Europe) in the Eurocontrol airways system. The JAA IR is trained in the airways but they still somehow amazingly manage to fail to teach people how to plan and execute a real flight in real weather on real Eurocontrol routes from say Lydd to Corfu.
The FAA exams are just one for PPL, one for IR, one for CPL, one for ATPL. You can sit them in several places in Europe (Flight Safety in Farnborough do them, I think). The CAA ones must be done at Gatwick, on the CAA exam timetable. The JAA exams are 7 for the PPL, 7 for the PPL/IR, 14 for the CPL/IR. The JAA ATP is not achievable due to the MCC time.
The plane you train in can be your own. No need for CAA-approved screens.
All previous training, from anywhere in the world, counts. So you can get a standalone FAA PPL in just a few hours' additional training, using your old JAA logbook entries. (Got to watch the FAA night requirements though). JAA licenses/ratings allow zero, zilch from previous training/experience. (Exception: ICAO PPL to JAA PPL conversion; the 100-hr partial concession).
Finally, the cost of doing a JAA PPL/IR in the UK, especially an ME PPL/IR, could be 2x to 3x higher than doing the same in the USA. Just look at self fly hire rates on piston twins, at the professional schools over here. Put that together with the FAA allowing previous instrument time (most UK pilots going FAA are previously UK PPL/IMC) and you will be looking at doing 55hrs here for just the IR, versus say 25hrs (previous instrument competence assumed) in FAA-land for the whole PPL/IR. The cost difference is huge.
What is not so bad is doing a JAA PPL/IR if one already has the FAA IR. The 50/55hrs flight requirement shrinks to 15 and the mandatory classroom attendance goes away. A lot of that Flyer group were doing just that - yet most still seem to have dropped out.
There are also effective strategies for the JAA exams. You get hold of a copy of the question bank, revise a bit, sit the 9 exams at Gatwick in one session, see which you failed, and revise thoroughly just for those and sit one more session. The absence of an oral exam in JAA is what makes this possible; most of the crap can be safely forgotten.
Anyway, it's all been written before
But it's horses for courses. The FAA route is very much for high time high currency owner pilots. Not worth doing otherwise.
Last edited by IO540; 3rd Jun 2009 at 08:05.
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From the FAQ on website link above,
I know a couple of people who have obtained an IMC this way, just by writing in, no exams requried!
J.
Q: I live in the UK and have an FAA private license and instrument rating. I understand that the UK CAA will give me a UK IMC rating on that basis. Is this true?
A: That is an old wives tale that has been circulating for longer then the 28 years that I have lived in the UK. I have never met any one that actually got their IMC rating that way. As the CAA can't issue ratings on foreign licenses, you would have to do at least three written exams for the UK PPL, the written for the IMC rating, training with a UK instructor as well as the skill tests for both.
A: That is an old wives tale that has been circulating for longer then the 28 years that I have lived in the UK. I have never met any one that actually got their IMC rating that way. As the CAA can't issue ratings on foreign licenses, you would have to do at least three written exams for the UK PPL, the written for the IMC rating, training with a UK instructor as well as the skill tests for both.
J.
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I know a couple of people who have obtained an IMC this way, just by writing in, no exams requried!
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Hi,
not that I care one way or the other about this debate, but...
Well, it either "reflects the hassle involved" or, one could argue, the lack of dedication of those who didn't carry on. Bit like people who do a PPL then never fly again.
My twopence worth, but I tend to agree that doing the JAA IR is not that big a deal and if you are going to be flying EU-reg planes in Europe I can't see much of an advantage to going through the (from what I read here) seemingly complicated process of shuttling back and forth between Europe and the US and getting all the various bits of paper from both authorities.
As for doing FAA checkrides in Europe, there are these guys who apparently teach the FAA IR course--presumably they can arrange checkrides as well? (I'm not associated with them)
not that I care one way or the other about this debate, but...
But, out of about 20-30 who (IIRC) started in that Flyer group about 2 years ago,
Quote:
that is an astonishingly poor success rate and reflects the collective hassle involved.
Quote:
I think there are around 6 or 7 of us that have finished so far
My twopence worth, but I tend to agree that doing the JAA IR is not that big a deal and if you are going to be flying EU-reg planes in Europe I can't see much of an advantage to going through the (from what I read here) seemingly complicated process of shuttling back and forth between Europe and the US and getting all the various bits of paper from both authorities.
As for doing FAA checkrides in Europe, there are these guys who apparently teach the FAA IR course--presumably they can arrange checkrides as well? (I'm not associated with them)
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A bit of factual accuracy wouldn't go amiss here:
:
The flyer group actually started in April last year: (14 months)
Ten completed the exams last year and of those ten, eight now have the JAA/IR.
That leaves two stragglers (I'm one of them- not long soon I hope)with all exams done, yet to complete flying training
The rest of the group (numbering about 10) are doing the exams at their own pace for varying reasons (work, financial,family) but all have well defined plans and a date for planned completion.Some are doing all exams bar one to allow starting the flying training stopwatch to be deferred till it fits in with plans. Others are doing CPL first.
8 out of ten equals 80% in one year : a bl**dy good success rate IMHO.
There will certainly be a noticeable upward blip in CAA IR registrations for this period.
Cusco.
:
Quote:
But, out of about 20-30 who (IIRC) started in that Flyer group about 2 years ago,
I think there are around 6 or 7 of us that have finished so far
that is an astonishingly poor success rate and reflects the collective hassle involved.
But, out of about 20-30 who (IIRC) started in that Flyer group about 2 years ago,
I think there are around 6 or 7 of us that have finished so far
that is an astonishingly poor success rate and reflects the collective hassle involved.
Ten completed the exams last year and of those ten, eight now have the JAA/IR.
That leaves two stragglers (I'm one of them- not long soon I hope)with all exams done, yet to complete flying training
The rest of the group (numbering about 10) are doing the exams at their own pace for varying reasons (work, financial,family) but all have well defined plans and a date for planned completion.Some are doing all exams bar one to allow starting the flying training stopwatch to be deferred till it fits in with plans. Others are doing CPL first.
8 out of ten equals 80% in one year : a bl**dy good success rate IMHO.
There will certainly be a noticeable upward blip in CAA IR registrations for this period.
Cusco.
Considering all the hassle and paperwork generated by European pilots trying to use FAA IRs as a shortcut to JAA IRs. Not to mention European pilots operating 'N' registrations in Europe, the JAA authorities trying to dream up schemes to stop them and the FAA fretting about the extra workload.
Might we persuade the JAA to pass a rule saying:
"A JAA pilot can use the privileges of a FAA IR on a JAA registered aircraft on a non commercial flight."
The FAA IR holders will be doing what they do anyway but no longer under 'N' reg, so less hassle for all concerned.
Might we persuade the JAA to pass a rule saying:
"A JAA pilot can use the privileges of a FAA IR on a JAA registered aircraft on a non commercial flight."
The FAA IR holders will be doing what they do anyway but no longer under 'N' reg, so less hassle for all concerned.
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Might we persuade the JAA to pass a rule saying:
"A JAA pilot can use the privileges of a FAA IR on a JAA registered aircraft on a non commercial flight."
The FAA IR holders will be doing what they do anyway but no longer under 'N' reg, so less hassle for all concerned.
"A JAA pilot can use the privileges of a FAA IR on a JAA registered aircraft on a non commercial flight."
The FAA IR holders will be doing what they do anyway but no longer under 'N' reg, so less hassle for all concerned.
Current EASA strategy is to strip European residents of foreign license privileges in EU airspace (FCL proposal, p159-161) and they intend to fix the predictable uproar by signing reciprocal treaties with all relevant countries (which basically means the one which runs the vast majority of world's GA - the USA) for mutual license recognition.
Time will tell what happens. I have no idea but I think it was a political mistake for EASA to dig themselves in so deeply on this position because - short of a miracle redrafting of FAR 61.3 etc - they will be forced into a humiliating climbdown handed down from above (the EU Transport Commission).
BTW I would not regard an FAA IR to be an effective "shortcut" to a JAA IR. It may well be technically true, for some people who don't value their time, that doing an FAA IR in the USA, and then doing a JAA IR conversion here, is going to cost less than doing the JAA IR from scratch, particularly if doing the ME. The value of doing the FAA IR in the first place is if you have an N-reg plane to fly. If you haven't then I wouldn't bother.
Last edited by IO540; 4th Jun 2009 at 21:22.
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Cusco,
I agree. The view in all the JAA TK schools until the Flyer group came along was that "ordinary" PPLs would struggle with the JAA IR Theory course, and need the laborious groundschool distance learning and 2 classroom weeks in full to be able to get through the exams.
What you guys proved was that it was very doable with a paperless course and a couple of classroom days. The track record for the group has been an astonishingly good pass rate (near perfect I believe) for all the guys who've taken the exams.
This has been a real breakthrough for the JAA IR (ironically coming 10 years too late...) and to a very great degree removes what was historically a very major barrier. I wasted many years of G-reg ownership without an IR, and would have done one if this exam route had been available. I simply was never going to spend half my annual vacation in a theory classroom.
brgds
421C
I agree. The view in all the JAA TK schools until the Flyer group came along was that "ordinary" PPLs would struggle with the JAA IR Theory course, and need the laborious groundschool distance learning and 2 classroom weeks in full to be able to get through the exams.
What you guys proved was that it was very doable with a paperless course and a couple of classroom days. The track record for the group has been an astonishingly good pass rate (near perfect I believe) for all the guys who've taken the exams.
This has been a real breakthrough for the JAA IR (ironically coming 10 years too late...) and to a very great degree removes what was historically a very major barrier. I wasted many years of G-reg ownership without an IR, and would have done one if this exam route had been available. I simply was never going to spend half my annual vacation in a theory classroom.
brgds
421C
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... and that's the real point. Time is precious!
I'm old, retired, love flying, but have had enough of study and exams.
The JAA IR would take a finite proportion of the time left to me. I don't have that sort of patience or dogged determination. I admire Cusco and the rest of the group on the Flyer route - all credit to them. Their performance in what are supposed to be difficult exams has been an eye-opener.
The FAA IR I did in two weeks (including an FAA PPL to stick it onto). The hours and experience from the IMC Rating that I've had for many years all counted. So I can (and do) fly IFR in the USA, and can fly IFR around Europe if I borrow an N-reg aircraft.
If I were 20 years younger, I'd have the JAA IR by now. As it is, I fly VFR around Europe in a G-reg. It seems to work.
I'm old, retired, love flying, but have had enough of study and exams.
The JAA IR would take a finite proportion of the time left to me. I don't have that sort of patience or dogged determination. I admire Cusco and the rest of the group on the Flyer route - all credit to them. Their performance in what are supposed to be difficult exams has been an eye-opener.
The FAA IR I did in two weeks (including an FAA PPL to stick it onto). The hours and experience from the IMC Rating that I've had for many years all counted. So I can (and do) fly IFR in the USA, and can fly IFR around Europe if I borrow an N-reg aircraft.
If I were 20 years younger, I'd have the JAA IR by now. As it is, I fly VFR around Europe in a G-reg. It seems to work.
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"This has been a real breakthrough for the JAA IR (ironically coming 10 years too late...) and to a very great degree removes what was historically a very major barrier. I wasted many years of G-reg ownership without an IR, and would have done one if this exam route had been available. I simply was never going to spend half my annual vacation in a theory classroom."
I'm one of the Flyer group and I agree with the above sentiment, if I'd have known what was really involved I would have done it a long time ago.
(Maybe instead of that Multi rating I did and renewed twice - but never used
I'm one of the Flyer group and I agree with the above sentiment, if I'd have known what was really involved I would have done it a long time ago.
(Maybe instead of that Multi rating I did and renewed twice - but never used
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Might we persuade the JAA to pass a rule saying:
"A JAA pilot can use the privileges of a FAA IR on a JAA registered aircraft on a non commercial flight."
The FAA IR holders will be doing what they do anyway but no longer under 'N' reg, so less hassle for all concerned.
"A JAA pilot can use the privileges of a FAA IR on a JAA registered aircraft on a non commercial flight."
The FAA IR holders will be doing what they do anyway but no longer under 'N' reg, so less hassle for all concerned.
Mind you neither does a Spanish one to fly in the South of the UK in IMHO.
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'I wonder why faaeurope.us and businessair.us keep changing their name?'
It was flyafts.com before that, like the flyafts letter here --
http://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-155548.html
Can you explain why exactly, matthew, and which IR you think is good enough for our wonderful europe and why?
It was flyafts.com before that, like the flyafts letter here --
http://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-155548.html
Can you explain why exactly, matthew, and which IR you think is good enough for our wonderful europe and why?
Quite apart from the FAA IRs going in and out of LHR on a regular basis, there are private pilots already using FAA IR in Europe. Allowing them to do this with G instead on N painted on the side is hardly likely to be a safety issue. Especially if it encouraged a few UK PPL/IMC to get an FAA IR as well.
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I understand the change from FAA Europe was to make it clear that this organisation were nothing to do with the FAA. The operator is an authourised examiner for the FAA in the same way that I am one for the UK CAA. I don't work for the CAA just hold an examiner rating like many others. He is the same and I believe it was felt that it may be misinterpreted by some that he was holding himself out as an FAA employee operating on behalf of the FAA in Europe.
Last edited by S-Works; 5th Jun 2009 at 16:40.
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Keef,
I have no FAA experience whatsoever so I might be way off the mark, but as far as the knowledge or skills level that need to be demonstrated for the successful issuance of an instrument rating, I don't believe they vary significantly between those two agencies. The exam schedule and presentation, one might well be more convenient/better thought out than the other, but other than that, is it possible that it is purely a matter of perception more than anything else?
After all, there is a consensus amongst those of us who hold JAA IRs that by and large its alleged difficulty is grossly exaggerated.
I get tired of posting this time and again, but I do it anyway in case it helps persuade anyone that an IR really is within reach of the common PPL.
The JAA IR would take a finite proportion of the time left to me. I don't have that sort of patience or dogged determination.
The FAA IR I did in two weeks
The FAA IR I did in two weeks
After all, there is a consensus amongst those of us who hold JAA IRs that by and large its alleged difficulty is grossly exaggerated.
I get tired of posting this time and again, but I do it anyway in case it helps persuade anyone that an IR really is within reach of the common PPL.
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I second LH2's comments. As a holder of multiple flavours of IR I can assure anyone reading that the the JAA IR is no more difficult then than the FAA IR, it is just presented differently.