Forced landing in sea.
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Forced landing in sea.
Following on from the recent tragic accident.
I’m sure I have a book somewhere with the answers but cannot find it.
Engine failure above sea, and not able to glide to land so must ditch in water.
After calling Mayday and switching off power and fuel.
Do you approach along sea waves and troughs, although this would put you crosswind?
Do you fly across waves only if wind is strong?
Do you fly normal landing aspect if in a taildragger?
Do you open windows and doors before impact?
Keep harness secure and release immediately after impact?
Lister
I’m sure I have a book somewhere with the answers but cannot find it.
Engine failure above sea, and not able to glide to land so must ditch in water.
After calling Mayday and switching off power and fuel.
Do you approach along sea waves and troughs, although this would put you crosswind?
Do you fly across waves only if wind is strong?
Do you fly normal landing aspect if in a taildragger?
Do you open windows and doors before impact?
Keep harness secure and release immediately after impact?
Lister
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CAA has a safety leaflet
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Lister,
Water landings, or ditchings, are done differently depending on the conditions. If you're approaching glassy water, a stable descent until water contact is necessary, and one should never attempt to flare. This is a time when minimum sink airpeed (not best glide) should be maintained until the aircraft hits the water.
You don't want to land into the back of a swell (upwind side), parallel to the crest. Timing against a swell is difficult, so where possible, land parallel to the swells. If you're drifting sideways with the wind, not so big a deal...you're not worried about landing while drifting this time, because the water is also moving.
If you can, and wave heights are very small, landing into the wind reduces your forward velocity. However, if you hit at the wrong time, you also face greater penalties.
Water landings mean you quite possibly won't remain upright. You may begin to sink soon after impact. You may not be able to see well, and you need to know your cockpit by feel, rightside up or upside down. You can use your seat belts and shoulder harness to stay oriented by following them back to their anchor point, but keep everything tight and in place until the aircraft comes to a rest.
If the airplane begins to sink you may not be able to open a door until the presure has equalized; this means flooding the cockpit to get the doors open. If the doors are left closed during landing, you may not be able to open them after impact; a little twisting of the airframe may jam them fast. You should refer to the manufacturers ditching instructions, but you're usually best opening doors and wedging something in them to keep them opened.
Deceleration and stopping will be considerably more firm and uncomfortable than a land landing. Keep your belts tight. If you have time, secure any loose items or if you have no further need, jettison them. If you're overflyin water, hopefully you've taken the precaution of bringing flotation gear. Put it on, don't inflate it because it will make your exit from the aircraft very difficult or impossible.
If you think a lifevest is too expensive and you have elected not to carry them, now might be a good time to invest at a minimum in something, even if it's a kiddie duck ring or something like that...you'll be grateful for anything you can get when you're in the water. (rapid inflation devices are available for bicycle tires using Co2 cartridges...these don't take up much room in a flight bag and can be used to quickly fill up small rafts, or other flotation gear...anything is better than nothing).
This becomes a very important time for you to have filed a flight plan and be communicating with someone. You won't last long in most bodies of water. Hypothermia can set in quickly. You'll fatigue quickly. You'll often cramp quickly. If you've never tried treading water in your clothes, give it a shot. I used to go to the pool every day and tread water in my clothes or flight gear for 45 minutes to an hour. It's not as easy as you think. You don't want to be out there any longer than you need be.
Keep a watch out for boat traffic. Get as close as you can...that may be your lifeline.
Some recommend getting your shoes off. You're going to want them off once you're clear, but I'd recommend keeping them on until you're clear; they'll protect your feet, and you may be dealing with twisted metal.
Be careful about holding the airplane off or trying to stall it in. I don't know how many times I've heard pilots say that's what they'd do...but I've never heard it from someone who's had any experience doing water landings. If you have some water training and you can judge the height above the waves that's one thing...after all, one lands floats. But if you haven't done it, now's not the time to start learning. It's too easy above the water to misjudge your height, and your vertical speed is far more dangerous than your forward speed. Trying to bleed off extra speed or stall it in is risky; Get it down, get it landed. But don't try to stave off landing at the expense of losing airspeed or control; keep it under control all the way to touchdown.
Something about water that you don't get on land...you can see the airflow over the water. Gusts are visible, and you can use that to your advantage. Gusts and wind show up as disturbances on the surface of the water, and they help form the swells and waves you see, too. Sometimes foam wind streaks will be visible showing the direction of the wind.
With small waves or ripples, land into the wind, but where there's any doubt, land with the swells, on the face of the swell, on the upwind side. Get the doors open, get out, don't take with you anything that's not worth your life. If you've got flotation gear, get it it clear if you can, but getting you and your occupants clear is the big thing. The rest can sink and be replaced later.
Something you can carry that may save your life in the water is a large trash bag. A very large bag, one you can get into if you draw your legs up, can be pulled around your shoulders. Your body heat will warm the water in the bag and it will help insulate you. In an absolute emergency (which you can safely conclude a water landing IS), a garbage bag can provide some temporary flotation by tying off the open end. Go with the heavy duty ones...it goes without saying.
Water landings, or ditchings, are done differently depending on the conditions. If you're approaching glassy water, a stable descent until water contact is necessary, and one should never attempt to flare. This is a time when minimum sink airpeed (not best glide) should be maintained until the aircraft hits the water.
You don't want to land into the back of a swell (upwind side), parallel to the crest. Timing against a swell is difficult, so where possible, land parallel to the swells. If you're drifting sideways with the wind, not so big a deal...you're not worried about landing while drifting this time, because the water is also moving.
If you can, and wave heights are very small, landing into the wind reduces your forward velocity. However, if you hit at the wrong time, you also face greater penalties.
Water landings mean you quite possibly won't remain upright. You may begin to sink soon after impact. You may not be able to see well, and you need to know your cockpit by feel, rightside up or upside down. You can use your seat belts and shoulder harness to stay oriented by following them back to their anchor point, but keep everything tight and in place until the aircraft comes to a rest.
If the airplane begins to sink you may not be able to open a door until the presure has equalized; this means flooding the cockpit to get the doors open. If the doors are left closed during landing, you may not be able to open them after impact; a little twisting of the airframe may jam them fast. You should refer to the manufacturers ditching instructions, but you're usually best opening doors and wedging something in them to keep them opened.
Deceleration and stopping will be considerably more firm and uncomfortable than a land landing. Keep your belts tight. If you have time, secure any loose items or if you have no further need, jettison them. If you're overflyin water, hopefully you've taken the precaution of bringing flotation gear. Put it on, don't inflate it because it will make your exit from the aircraft very difficult or impossible.
If you think a lifevest is too expensive and you have elected not to carry them, now might be a good time to invest at a minimum in something, even if it's a kiddie duck ring or something like that...you'll be grateful for anything you can get when you're in the water. (rapid inflation devices are available for bicycle tires using Co2 cartridges...these don't take up much room in a flight bag and can be used to quickly fill up small rafts, or other flotation gear...anything is better than nothing).
This becomes a very important time for you to have filed a flight plan and be communicating with someone. You won't last long in most bodies of water. Hypothermia can set in quickly. You'll fatigue quickly. You'll often cramp quickly. If you've never tried treading water in your clothes, give it a shot. I used to go to the pool every day and tread water in my clothes or flight gear for 45 minutes to an hour. It's not as easy as you think. You don't want to be out there any longer than you need be.
Keep a watch out for boat traffic. Get as close as you can...that may be your lifeline.
Some recommend getting your shoes off. You're going to want them off once you're clear, but I'd recommend keeping them on until you're clear; they'll protect your feet, and you may be dealing with twisted metal.
Be careful about holding the airplane off or trying to stall it in. I don't know how many times I've heard pilots say that's what they'd do...but I've never heard it from someone who's had any experience doing water landings. If you have some water training and you can judge the height above the waves that's one thing...after all, one lands floats. But if you haven't done it, now's not the time to start learning. It's too easy above the water to misjudge your height, and your vertical speed is far more dangerous than your forward speed. Trying to bleed off extra speed or stall it in is risky; Get it down, get it landed. But don't try to stave off landing at the expense of losing airspeed or control; keep it under control all the way to touchdown.
Something about water that you don't get on land...you can see the airflow over the water. Gusts are visible, and you can use that to your advantage. Gusts and wind show up as disturbances on the surface of the water, and they help form the swells and waves you see, too. Sometimes foam wind streaks will be visible showing the direction of the wind.
With small waves or ripples, land into the wind, but where there's any doubt, land with the swells, on the face of the swell, on the upwind side. Get the doors open, get out, don't take with you anything that's not worth your life. If you've got flotation gear, get it it clear if you can, but getting you and your occupants clear is the big thing. The rest can sink and be replaced later.
Something you can carry that may save your life in the water is a large trash bag. A very large bag, one you can get into if you draw your legs up, can be pulled around your shoulders. Your body heat will warm the water in the bag and it will help insulate you. In an absolute emergency (which you can safely conclude a water landing IS), a garbage bag can provide some temporary flotation by tying off the open end. Go with the heavy duty ones...it goes without saying.
Last edited by SNS3Guppy; 20th Oct 2008 at 13:53.
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A very good post above. If I could add a couple more details, based on my HUET training:
* Before ditching, attach your liferaft's painter line to the aircraft (e.g., to a seatframe). This prevents it from drifting away from you, esp. in rough seas (if you're thinking the aircraft will go down with the liferaft tied to it, the painter line has a weak link which will break after the hydrostatic valve inflates the raft).
* A landing in cold waters is for practical purposes non-survivable unless you are wearing an immersion suit or other adequate protection, and are trained for the eventuality. Ever heard of cold shock? You can read about what it's like on this PDF, for example.
But again, the above was a very good post. Anyone who has not been trained (or experienced it!) and is thinking of posting "advice", should reconsider twice before hitting "Submit"--unplanned immersion in water is nothing like you think it is.
* Before ditching, attach your liferaft's painter line to the aircraft (e.g., to a seatframe). This prevents it from drifting away from you, esp. in rough seas (if you're thinking the aircraft will go down with the liferaft tied to it, the painter line has a weak link which will break after the hydrostatic valve inflates the raft).
* A landing in cold waters is for practical purposes non-survivable unless you are wearing an immersion suit or other adequate protection, and are trained for the eventuality. Ever heard of cold shock? You can read about what it's like on this PDF, for example.
But again, the above was a very good post. Anyone who has not been trained (or experienced it!) and is thinking of posting "advice", should reconsider twice before hitting "Submit"--unplanned immersion in water is nothing like you think it is.
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David,thats where I saw it.
I had that safety leaflet,in fact I had them all before we moved a few months ago,just need to find them again!
Guppy that is a brilliant post,I sail a lot so know the unrelenting power of the sea.
I fly an L4 Cub so getting the top window and door open should be OK,there are so many holes in the L4 I'm sure pressure would equalise rapidly.
A self inflating lifejacket is the minimum requirement for any hope of survival in busy summer inshore waters around the UK,an immersion suit or liferaft is essential for anything more than immediate rescue.
Thanks again.
Lister
I had that safety leaflet,in fact I had them all before we moved a few months ago,just need to find them again!
Guppy that is a brilliant post,I sail a lot so know the unrelenting power of the sea.
I fly an L4 Cub so getting the top window and door open should be OK,there are so many holes in the L4 I'm sure pressure would equalise rapidly.
A self inflating lifejacket is the minimum requirement for any hope of survival in busy summer inshore waters around the UK,an immersion suit or liferaft is essential for anything more than immediate rescue.
Thanks again.
Lister
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Brrrrr . . . . . . "bl**dy freezing" !
A landing in cold waters is for practical purposes non-survivable unless you are wearing an immersion suit
You might not believe how cosy you can eventually feel in an immersion suit in a single seat life-raft !
Thank God, I've never had to consider ditching for real.
I almost always wear a lifejacket when flying in the Scottish Highlands. I doubt my ability to get one on securely in a sinking aircraft, or in the cockpit gliding down.
Over land, a loch (near the shore) would often be the best option for puting down if the engine failed.
From dinghy sailing and canoeing in winter many years ago, without wet suits or survival suits, the effect of cold water immersion varies greatly from person to person. Wet wool gives some insulation. I'd keep my footware on, for insulation.
Fortunately my usual aircraft has a poorly heated, draughty, cabin, so I dress warmly.
There's a U.S. site somewhere listing statistics for survival of ditchings near land. Survival is very likely, if a lifejacket is worn.
Over land, a loch (near the shore) would often be the best option for puting down if the engine failed.
From dinghy sailing and canoeing in winter many years ago, without wet suits or survival suits, the effect of cold water immersion varies greatly from person to person. Wet wool gives some insulation. I'd keep my footware on, for insulation.
Fortunately my usual aircraft has a poorly heated, draughty, cabin, so I dress warmly.
There's a U.S. site somewhere listing statistics for survival of ditchings near land. Survival is very likely, if a lifejacket is worn.
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I hesitate to get into this discussion, however discussing how how to land on swells is not all that simple to give advice on.
How does one determine if there in fact are swells running especially at wide angles to a wave pattern?
Or even more dangerous is a swell running with a glassy or near glassy water condition...how do you determine if they are there and the direction the swells are moving?
How does one determine if there in fact are swells running especially at wide angles to a wave pattern?
Or even more dangerous is a swell running with a glassy or near glassy water condition...how do you determine if they are there and the direction the swells are moving?
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Chuck,
The simple answer is that it's not simple. Unless someone has spent considerable time on the water and over the water and is familiar not only with water behavior in generaly, but local behavior, it's a crap shoot. When one is in the position of making an unscheduled, forced landing as the result of an engine failure or other condition, with blood pressure high, and concern at a peak, judgement is made even more difficult.
For those who fly over water frequently, I strongly recommend at a minimum an introduction to seaplane flying. Unfortunately, this is nearly always done from a lake or a sheltered area, which still takes a lot of the judgement out of the learning process.
I think the best that can be said is that it's an emergency, and the person forced into this situation can only make the best of it as able.
With swells in particular, the overall wave pattern isn't so important as is blending with the swell (unless one is landing against them/or waves, and into the wind). What the rest of the ocean is doing at the time isn't really relevant, compared to the position one touches down on with the swell.
What can happen, however, is an attempt to land on the crest of a swell meets an overshoot or undershoot. Where the water was just below you before, now it's just air, and for the pilot who attempts to grease the airplane onto the water, now there's a ten foot drop or more, with another swell or wave coming over the top.
An emergency water landing isn't so much about finesse as getting down and getting clear.
As addressed before, glassy water landings are in a class by themselves. Highly desceptive, depth perception is nearly impossible. An approach to landing should be made at minimum sink speed, constant descent until water contact. With angled light there's a greater chance for shadowing, but if it's truly glassy water, then having an idea of the surface winds and planning accordingly is the best bet.
The simple answer is that it's not simple. Unless someone has spent considerable time on the water and over the water and is familiar not only with water behavior in generaly, but local behavior, it's a crap shoot. When one is in the position of making an unscheduled, forced landing as the result of an engine failure or other condition, with blood pressure high, and concern at a peak, judgement is made even more difficult.
For those who fly over water frequently, I strongly recommend at a minimum an introduction to seaplane flying. Unfortunately, this is nearly always done from a lake or a sheltered area, which still takes a lot of the judgement out of the learning process.
I think the best that can be said is that it's an emergency, and the person forced into this situation can only make the best of it as able.
With swells in particular, the overall wave pattern isn't so important as is blending with the swell (unless one is landing against them/or waves, and into the wind). What the rest of the ocean is doing at the time isn't really relevant, compared to the position one touches down on with the swell.
What can happen, however, is an attempt to land on the crest of a swell meets an overshoot or undershoot. Where the water was just below you before, now it's just air, and for the pilot who attempts to grease the airplane onto the water, now there's a ten foot drop or more, with another swell or wave coming over the top.
An emergency water landing isn't so much about finesse as getting down and getting clear.
Or even more dangerous is a swell running with a glassy or near glassy water condition...how do you determine if they are there and the direction the swells are moving?
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As addressed before, glassy water landings are in a class by themselves. Highly desceptive, depth perception is nearly impossible.
Depth perception is not nearly impossible on glassy water " it is " impossible.
An approach to landing should be made at minimum sink speed, constant descent until water contact.
That is correct in the case of an engine out in a single engine airplane with glassy water you should aim for minimum sink speed...and pray.
With angled light there's a greater chance for shadowing, but if it's truly glassy water, then having an idea of the surface winds and planning accordingly is the best bet.
I am not exactly sure what you mean by that last part.....if there is a surface wind there will be ripples on the surface of the water and it is no longer a glassy water surface because once you get any wind there will be at least ripples and the surface then becomes definable.
Landing on water with even small waves/ripples is no big deal as far as judging height goes for the flare altitude.
When doing initial sea plane training I have the pilot being trained do all approaches and landings with the throttle/'s closed from 200 feet until they are proficient at flaring and landing without using power.
I have been training sea plane pilots for fifty years and have never had any problem with them learning to flare and land power off...it is just a matter of getting the proper sight picture and changing the attitude at the proper height above the water.
A lot of my clients are heavy jet drivers and at first it is a bit strange to them but they soon learn to land power off and then I let them use power as they see fit.
During the last fifty feet I count down the height to the surface (From 25 feet to five feet I count down in five foot increments, from five feet to touch down I count in one foot increments. ) this aids them in judging height and the closure rate and the sight picture that is required to approach, flare and touch down in the proper attitude.
I use a camcorder and we de-brief on a TV screen.
When they screw up an approach/flare/landing I stop the video and I have them use a laser pen and put the dot where they were looking at that point in time and ask them what they were thinking at that moment with regard to height above the water......it works like a charm as a de-briefing tool.
Generally they are looking to far ahead and their ability to judge height is affected.
Ocean swells are a subject that really would be difficult to go into in any depth on a private pilot forum as there are so many variables and methods of judging their presence and behavior. I have seen them with around four hundred feet from crest to crest and deep enough in the trough that all you can see is a wall of water in front of you and the sky.
Depth perception is not nearly impossible on glassy water " it is " impossible.
An approach to landing should be made at minimum sink speed, constant descent until water contact.
That is correct in the case of an engine out in a single engine airplane with glassy water you should aim for minimum sink speed...and pray.
With angled light there's a greater chance for shadowing, but if it's truly glassy water, then having an idea of the surface winds and planning accordingly is the best bet.
I am not exactly sure what you mean by that last part.....if there is a surface wind there will be ripples on the surface of the water and it is no longer a glassy water surface because once you get any wind there will be at least ripples and the surface then becomes definable.
Landing on water with even small waves/ripples is no big deal as far as judging height goes for the flare altitude.
When doing initial sea plane training I have the pilot being trained do all approaches and landings with the throttle/'s closed from 200 feet until they are proficient at flaring and landing without using power.
I have been training sea plane pilots for fifty years and have never had any problem with them learning to flare and land power off...it is just a matter of getting the proper sight picture and changing the attitude at the proper height above the water.
A lot of my clients are heavy jet drivers and at first it is a bit strange to them but they soon learn to land power off and then I let them use power as they see fit.
During the last fifty feet I count down the height to the surface (From 25 feet to five feet I count down in five foot increments, from five feet to touch down I count in one foot increments. ) this aids them in judging height and the closure rate and the sight picture that is required to approach, flare and touch down in the proper attitude.
I use a camcorder and we de-brief on a TV screen.
When they screw up an approach/flare/landing I stop the video and I have them use a laser pen and put the dot where they were looking at that point in time and ask them what they were thinking at that moment with regard to height above the water......it works like a charm as a de-briefing tool.
Generally they are looking to far ahead and their ability to judge height is affected.
Ocean swells are a subject that really would be difficult to go into in any depth on a private pilot forum as there are so many variables and methods of judging their presence and behavior. I have seen them with around four hundred feet from crest to crest and deep enough in the trough that all you can see is a wall of water in front of you and the sky.
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Agreed, Chuck. I'm a little hesitant to go into too much detail on a private pilot forum, especially with topics such as glassy water landings, because unless someone has performed one, it's often an ineffective talk. I can't count the number of times the subject has come up at Wings meetings or safety seminars, or places such as this, on a web board...nearly universally the private pilots who respond answer the same way...they want to stall it into the water and land as slow as possible.
Unless one has seen for himself or herself the lack of depth perception, and has seen a bird crash into the water when even the bird can't judge height, it's really hard to get the point across.
It's part of the reason whenever the subject comes up I always encourage participants to seek a seaplane rating. A seaplane rating still doesn't prepare one for the realities of ditching, but it does give a close up look at water landing, and may give one some idea of the challenges it might impose. That's just one small aspect of a ditching, of course, and there are so many variables to a ditching that one can prepare for that only in generalities.
I usually stress: get down, get out, get clear, float.
We all have things we have to do just once before we die...this for me isn't one of them. It's something I hope to never see before I die, quite frankly. Hats off to the folks who do, but I'm a land lubber at heart, and have the knees to prove it.
If you're still providing seaplane instruction (didn't you have a twin bee at one point, for multi sea training??--or am I thinking of someone else?--seems from the AOPA boards years ago you were doing twin bee training), it might be a good place for people here to go. I see people posting all the time about going to the US to do float training. I think most here would jump at the chance to go train with you...are you doing that presently?
Unless one has seen for himself or herself the lack of depth perception, and has seen a bird crash into the water when even the bird can't judge height, it's really hard to get the point across.
It's part of the reason whenever the subject comes up I always encourage participants to seek a seaplane rating. A seaplane rating still doesn't prepare one for the realities of ditching, but it does give a close up look at water landing, and may give one some idea of the challenges it might impose. That's just one small aspect of a ditching, of course, and there are so many variables to a ditching that one can prepare for that only in generalities.
I usually stress: get down, get out, get clear, float.
I have seen them with around four hundred feet from crest to crest and deep enough in the trough that all you can see is a wall of water in front of you and the sky.
If you're still providing seaplane instruction (didn't you have a twin bee at one point, for multi sea training??--or am I thinking of someone else?--seems from the AOPA boards years ago you were doing twin bee training), it might be a good place for people here to go. I see people posting all the time about going to the US to do float training. I think most here would jump at the chance to go train with you...are you doing that presently?
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Water landings mean you quite possibly won't remain upright.
The sudden impact also shattered the windscreen so both occupants suffered immersion/thermal shock immediately after impact. The passenger (a pilot) said the disorientation resulting from being wet, cold and nose down seriously affected his ability to think and egress from the aircraft was far longer than he had thought it would be.
We operated from a coastal airfield and had discussed ditching many times. Nothing we had done (including wet dinghy drills) prepared them for the actual experience. Luckily both survived.
Pompey till I die
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great posts
Thanks for the posts sn3guppy. It's gems like those that make reading the bickering / flame war that is pprune worth It.
Last edited by PompeyPaul; 21st Oct 2008 at 07:37.
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To add to Chuck's very informative posts, for the benefit of the wheel plane pilots reading, the concept of power off or power on water landings, be they emergency or routine, is a little different, in that generally "runway" length is not a concern. Yes, there can be tight bays an so forth, but generally you're operating in larger areas, landing on the numbers is not required. Where the issue is overwater flight and ditching, it can be assumed that runway length is not an issue at all. Thus, glidepath control, and precise touchdown along the landing path is less important, making it more possible to concentrate on the lateral precision. Landing along the crest of a swell is somewhat challenging, but doable in that you can approach the landing area at an accute angle, set up on the crest of the swell, and then alter your course slightly to land along the crest. Cross wind is much less a factor. If you're ditching, it is the only safe way. If you're landing a flying boat, it will usualy handle the crosswind fairly well. If you're landing a small floatplane in water with swells large enough to be a factor in a safe landing, you should rethink your plan to land. Small float planes do very poorly in even as much as a 10" wave or swell height. I have been a passenger in a Cessna 185, where the pilot learned this very expensive lesson.
As said, in glassy water conditions, you will not be able to judge your height at all. If you have properly executed your approach, you will come to know your height above the water when it is zero and not before. Stalling onto glassy water cannot be planned so as to be at all safe.
Swimming in an inverted submerged aircraft is very disorienting. I did this many times while recovering flipped over float planes. The cockpit, which was so familar, is now anything other than familar. You know all of the features, but cannot find them (and it's dark, and you're scared). A fellow flipped his Cessna 170 over in front of me (on wheels) while I was waiting to cross the runway. I landed the helicopter next to him to offer assistance. They were not hurt, but the assistance he needed was turning the fuel off! The fuel selector was now on the ceiling, but darned if he could find it! And, that was in prefect conditions, with time to look for it!
Ditching training is well worth the expense. There is a travelling training course available in Canada.
If you're flying over water without at least a suitable life jacket for everyone aboard, you're both illegal, and foolish. If the water is even close to cold, an immersion suit is a must. There are many types which are fine for flying. Be it an immersion suit, or life jacket, pockets are good. Preload them with everything you'll need while floating. Once you're out the door, and the plane is no longer accessable to you, all the rest of your emergency equiment is also inaccessible. What you will have, is what you got out with.
There are certain minimum costs we must incurr to fly, safety equipment appropriate to the location of the flying is certainly one of them. You don't have to fly out over the water, so if you're going to, get the right gear!
Pilot DAR
As said, in glassy water conditions, you will not be able to judge your height at all. If you have properly executed your approach, you will come to know your height above the water when it is zero and not before. Stalling onto glassy water cannot be planned so as to be at all safe.
Swimming in an inverted submerged aircraft is very disorienting. I did this many times while recovering flipped over float planes. The cockpit, which was so familar, is now anything other than familar. You know all of the features, but cannot find them (and it's dark, and you're scared). A fellow flipped his Cessna 170 over in front of me (on wheels) while I was waiting to cross the runway. I landed the helicopter next to him to offer assistance. They were not hurt, but the assistance he needed was turning the fuel off! The fuel selector was now on the ceiling, but darned if he could find it! And, that was in prefect conditions, with time to look for it!
Ditching training is well worth the expense. There is a travelling training course available in Canada.
If you're flying over water without at least a suitable life jacket for everyone aboard, you're both illegal, and foolish. If the water is even close to cold, an immersion suit is a must. There are many types which are fine for flying. Be it an immersion suit, or life jacket, pockets are good. Preload them with everything you'll need while floating. Once you're out the door, and the plane is no longer accessable to you, all the rest of your emergency equiment is also inaccessible. What you will have, is what you got out with.
There are certain minimum costs we must incurr to fly, safety equipment appropriate to the location of the flying is certainly one of them. You don't have to fly out over the water, so if you're going to, get the right gear!
Pilot DAR
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sn3guppy, I no longer do any training because I decided to retire when I turned 70 three years ago.
Also I never had a Twin Bee but my first airplane ride was in a Sea Bee in 1947 and I flew one for four years in the fifties.
I still have a couple of web sites because I turned my training for sea planes over to Wings Over Holland when I retired and the guys there are now looking after any PBY flying that may come up as well as flying the Dutch Cat out of The Aviodrome in Lelydstad.
PBY Flight Training - Chuck Ellsworth / Wings Over Holland
I have no idea how many thousands of hours I have on sea planes or even how many different ones I flew, but it was an interesting career and we got to see most of the world at a very slow speed.
My favorite flying in order was.
(1) Movie industry.
(2) Aerial application.
(3) Fire suppression.
The worst was flying in the air show circuit and single pilot IFR courier flying in piston engine airplanes.
I started in the Biplane era and got as far as working with Airbus Industries and got to play with their video game in Toulouse France, which of course is not really flying.
Right now I am assembling a new set of amphibious floats for a new Husky we are using for a new business venture.
Like you I do both flying and mechanical work on airplanes, I kind of prefer the fixing over flying because it requires far more knowledge and work but the satisfaction of doing it is a reward in its self.......salvage work in the high arctic and in the desert was low on the nice to do scale though.
Also I never had a Twin Bee but my first airplane ride was in a Sea Bee in 1947 and I flew one for four years in the fifties.
I still have a couple of web sites because I turned my training for sea planes over to Wings Over Holland when I retired and the guys there are now looking after any PBY flying that may come up as well as flying the Dutch Cat out of The Aviodrome in Lelydstad.
PBY Flight Training - Chuck Ellsworth / Wings Over Holland
I have no idea how many thousands of hours I have on sea planes or even how many different ones I flew, but it was an interesting career and we got to see most of the world at a very slow speed.
My favorite flying in order was.
(1) Movie industry.
(2) Aerial application.
(3) Fire suppression.
The worst was flying in the air show circuit and single pilot IFR courier flying in piston engine airplanes.
I started in the Biplane era and got as far as working with Airbus Industries and got to play with their video game in Toulouse France, which of course is not really flying.
Right now I am assembling a new set of amphibious floats for a new Husky we are using for a new business venture.
Like you I do both flying and mechanical work on airplanes, I kind of prefer the fixing over flying because it requires far more knowledge and work but the satisfaction of doing it is a reward in its self.......salvage work in the high arctic and in the desert was low on the nice to do scale though.
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Like you I do both flying and mechanical work on airplanes, I kind of prefer the fixing over flying because it requires far more knowledge and work but the satisfaction of doing it is a reward in its self.
I'm very dismayed with the current turn of events in the US with the sport pilot certificate and the maintenance privileges given for that program. An individual with no other experience can get certification to work on LSA airplanes with only 120 hours of training...and go to work turning wrenches commercially on them. That's just not right, and not just a slap in the face to the maintenance profession, but a dangerous trend in my view. Off soapbox.
sn3guppy, I no longer do any training because I decided to retire when I turned 70 three years ago.
salvage work in the high arctic and in the desert was low on the nice to do scale though.
I picked up a patient in a King Air one night in Mammoth, CA, in the dead of winter. After wondering around on the ramp for a couple of hours in the freezing cold, while waiting for the ambulance, it finally showed up and I helped load the patient. I slipped my flashlight, which had been in my flightsuit sleeve pocket, in my mouth. It froze to my lips. I pulled off skin when I tried to take it out of my mouth. Same sentiments at the time.
I really don't like cold weather.
You weren't part of Darryl Greenemeyer's B29 recovery up there (AK), were you?
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No I was not involved in that recovery, but myself and another masochist recovered a DC3 on Summerset Island in 1971 that had landed short of the so called runway...the left gear had collapsed and the left engine was fifty feet ahead of the airplane.
We flew in everything we needed in a Twin Otter and all that was showing of the airplane was the top of the fuselage and the tail sticking above the snow, that was in the first week of October.....the sun set for the winter shortly after we started work and fifty nine days later we flew it out of there to Resolute bay.
Not bad for just to guys.
Anyhow I decided to retire at 70 so I could maybe see how other humans live.
Health wise I am still about sixteen and still able to take the G loads of unlimited aerobatics...but don't want to anymore.
I am happy I retired when I did because I have seen to many pilots hang in and let time decay their skills to the point they started making dumb mistakes.
I have this opinion regarding pilots, 90% of them are pilots, 5% of them are aviators who are born naturals, 3% are also born natural mechanics.
If you find one of the 3%er's, hire him/her even if you don't need them right now.
We flew in everything we needed in a Twin Otter and all that was showing of the airplane was the top of the fuselage and the tail sticking above the snow, that was in the first week of October.....the sun set for the winter shortly after we started work and fifty nine days later we flew it out of there to Resolute bay.
Not bad for just to guys.
Anyhow I decided to retire at 70 so I could maybe see how other humans live.
Health wise I am still about sixteen and still able to take the G loads of unlimited aerobatics...but don't want to anymore.
I am happy I retired when I did because I have seen to many pilots hang in and let time decay their skills to the point they started making dumb mistakes.
I have this opinion regarding pilots, 90% of them are pilots, 5% of them are aviators who are born naturals, 3% are also born natural mechanics.
If you find one of the 3%er's, hire him/her even if you don't need them right now.
Delightful thread despite the subject! Thanks, Lister.
Chuck, my mom told me her contractions began in a Sikorsky but that she made it to the hospital on time, as my birth certificate confirms. Back when PBYs were hot stuff.
And, could the "stall it in" recommendation not be more related to fixed gear?
Chuck, my mom told me her contractions began in a Sikorsky but that she made it to the hospital on time, as my birth certificate confirms. Back when PBYs were hot stuff.
And, could the "stall it in" recommendation not be more related to fixed gear?