Forced landing in sea.
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broadreach, any fixeed wing can be landed in the full stall attitude, as long as the surface you are landing on is within a few feet of the wheels, hull at the point of stall the landing will be acceptable.....
...the one issue that has not been examined in ditching at sea is kinetic energy.
" the kinetic energy of an object is directly proportional to the square of its speed. That means that for a twofold increase in speed, the kinetic energy will increase by a factor of four. "
If your airplane has a fixed gear the airplane will rotate around its vertical center of gravity as soon as the wheels dig into the water, this must be considered when deciding how you plan to contact the water.
I was based at congonhas airport in the winter of 98/99 working with Tam Airlines flying a PBY that they were involved in.
Big city that Sao Paulo!
...the one issue that has not been examined in ditching at sea is kinetic energy.
" the kinetic energy of an object is directly proportional to the square of its speed. That means that for a twofold increase in speed, the kinetic energy will increase by a factor of four. "
If your airplane has a fixed gear the airplane will rotate around its vertical center of gravity as soon as the wheels dig into the water, this must be considered when deciding how you plan to contact the water.
I was based at congonhas airport in the winter of 98/99 working with Tam Airlines flying a PBY that they were involved in.
Big city that Sao Paulo!
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jabberwok
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Quote:
Water landings mean you quite possibly won't remain upright.
Indeed - especially with fixed gear aircraft. I saw a C150 ditch many years ago and the aircraft nosed in as soon as the gear hit the water. Deceleration must have been brutal. When the spray cleared only the tail was above the surface and it was just over the vertical.
The sudden impact also shattered the windscreen so both occupants suffered immersion/thermal shock immediately after impact. The passenger (a pilot) said the disorientation resulting from being wet, cold and nose down seriously affected his ability to think and egress from the aircraft was far longer than he had thought it would be.
We operated from a coastal airfield and had discussed ditching many times. Nothing we had done (including wet dinghy drills) prepared them for the actual experience. Luckily both survived.
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Quote:
Water landings mean you quite possibly won't remain upright.
Indeed - especially with fixed gear aircraft. I saw a C150 ditch many years ago and the aircraft nosed in as soon as the gear hit the water. Deceleration must have been brutal. When the spray cleared only the tail was above the surface and it was just over the vertical.
The sudden impact also shattered the windscreen so both occupants suffered immersion/thermal shock immediately after impact. The passenger (a pilot) said the disorientation resulting from being wet, cold and nose down seriously affected his ability to think and egress from the aircraft was far longer than he had thought it would be.
We operated from a coastal airfield and had discussed ditching many times. Nothing we had done (including wet dinghy drills) prepared them for the actual experience. Luckily both survived.
http://www.alexisparkinn.com/photoga...terLanding.mpg
As for allowing the pressure to equalise to allow the door to open, did you see the water training of late on Top Gear where Richard Hammond conducted some tests getting out of a car...... even when the car filled there was still a pressure difference and he was unable to open the door until the thing had reached the bottom and the pressure equalised...... they stated that as the car fills slowly when it sinks the outside pressure is always greater than the internal pressure even when full of water and it is only when it reaches the bottom and equalised could he open it...... so they have now for cars at least changed the recommendations to get out as quickly as possible.
Please watch
YouTube - Top Gear - Wild car stunt - part two of Top Gear underwater escape pt 2 - BBC
it may one day save your life.
Last edited by NutLoose; 22nd Oct 2008 at 01:27.
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Excellent films which both show the reality of water landings and may make you think the next time heading out over the Sea.
As someone who scuba dives, (years ago a lot now only on exotic holidays
Diving gives you a better understanding of that element and makes you more cautious of the reality of the sea close too.
Part of the pre landing drills should be to open the door and wedge a large cushion in there to keep the door open.
Flying along at 2-3000 feet does give a false sense of security. Those harmlless looking white caps turn into 30 foot high brick wall waves on close inspection.
I do not have absolute faith in piston singles and admire the pure guts or stupidity of ferry pilots who trundle them to and from Canada to Europe.
They cross the most violent and cold seas.
Give me a twin anytime statistics or no statistics it is a very calming thing to see two engines purring away when over large areas of sea.
I wonder if there has ever been inflatable air bags developed for singles which cross large areas of water. As theoretically strategically placed they should keep the ship afloat.
The Cirrus carries an emergency shute a kit for emergency air bags should be feasable for water landings.
Pace
As someone who scuba dives, (years ago a lot now only on exotic holidays
Diving gives you a better understanding of that element and makes you more cautious of the reality of the sea close too.Part of the pre landing drills should be to open the door and wedge a large cushion in there to keep the door open.
Flying along at 2-3000 feet does give a false sense of security. Those harmlless looking white caps turn into 30 foot high brick wall waves on close inspection.
I do not have absolute faith in piston singles and admire the pure guts or stupidity of ferry pilots who trundle them to and from Canada to Europe.
They cross the most violent and cold seas.
Give me a twin anytime statistics or no statistics it is a very calming thing to see two engines purring away when over large areas of sea.
I wonder if there has ever been inflatable air bags developed for singles which cross large areas of water. As theoretically strategically placed they should keep the ship afloat.
The Cirrus carries an emergency shute a kit for emergency air bags should be feasable for water landings.
Pace
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A self inflating lifejacket is the minimum requirement for any hope of survival in busy summer inshore waters
I assume you meant for sailing purposes only as this would impede your exit from an aircraft if submerged.
I have been fortunate enough to try ditching and escape training dozens of times over the years due to offshore oilfield work, including trying to get out of a submerged cabin with a bouyancy aid fitted (to simulate an inflated vest). I did not succeed and the divers hauled me out, I must add that I had a rebreather system on and was in no danger.
For those interested in stats, water will drain heat from your body up to 26 times faster than air.,,,,,,
Thats why it is important to remain calm and not try to swim around as this will increase the blood flow to the skin surface where it will loose heat immediately.
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Tuscan
Yes ,marine use only for auto inflating jackets,ie inflate by CO2 as soon as in contact with water.
I take self inflating to mean by use of manual CO2 cylinder,but as always stand to be corrected.
Sorry for any confusion.
I still have some old sailing life jackets with inflation by mouth,tricky if not inflated before going over the side!
Lister
I take self inflating to mean by use of manual CO2 cylinder,but as always stand to be corrected.
Sorry for any confusion.
I still have some old sailing life jackets with inflation by mouth,tricky if not inflated before going over the side!
Lister
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Bail out option?
Interesting comments and thoughts on this thread.
What are the thoughts of those of you with in depth (no pun intended sorry) knowledge of ditching, practical or theoretical, regarding bailing out if you have a parachute and height enough to do safely bail out, rather than ditching?
Would your answer be different depending on the type of aircraft eg radial engine ratractable, radial engine fixed gear, biplane fixed gear radial engine?
Looking forward to your thoughts.
SC.
What are the thoughts of those of you with in depth (no pun intended sorry) knowledge of ditching, practical or theoretical, regarding bailing out if you have a parachute and height enough to do safely bail out, rather than ditching?
Would your answer be different depending on the type of aircraft eg radial engine ratractable, radial engine fixed gear, biplane fixed gear radial engine?
Looking forward to your thoughts.
SC.
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Southern Cross
There are so many factors to consider? the construction of the aircraft? Is it plastic with sealed compartments and with Polystyrene filling and fairly buoyant.
Is it fixed gear or retractable? What is the surface of the sea like? smooth, choppy or 50 foot waves?
What is the surface wind like. Calm or 40 kts meaning your toughdown speed maybe 20 kts or less. What is the stall speed of the aircraft and hence touchdown speed?
If you jumped out what happens to your life raft what happens to your Life Jackets should the aircraft float is it a good idea to end up some way from it?
I think contemplating such an event in the luxury and warmth you have in font of your computer is very different compared to possibly landing into waves the size of houses and into freezing cold water.
Like in anything its about risk reduction so dont go unless the sea is calm dont go around dusk when there will not be time to find you. Make sure you carry all the survival gear you can possibly carry and above all do not have a blind faith in things mechanical ie piston engines.
As I have stated before always have an OUT for any situation in flying. As soon as you dont have an OUT you are playing Russian Roulette and one day you may pull the trigger with the bullit in it.
Ie if you must fly a single over long water distances make sure you have every scenario covered and plan for the worst case or take a twin
The only parachute is on a cirrus. The undercarriage is very much part of the shock absorbtion so you would probably break your back going into water under the chute.
Personally I would rather stay with the aircraft than jumping out and rely on my skills to put her in.
Pace
There are so many factors to consider? the construction of the aircraft? Is it plastic with sealed compartments and with Polystyrene filling and fairly buoyant.
Is it fixed gear or retractable? What is the surface of the sea like? smooth, choppy or 50 foot waves?
What is the surface wind like. Calm or 40 kts meaning your toughdown speed maybe 20 kts or less. What is the stall speed of the aircraft and hence touchdown speed?
If you jumped out what happens to your life raft what happens to your Life Jackets should the aircraft float is it a good idea to end up some way from it?
I think contemplating such an event in the luxury and warmth you have in font of your computer is very different compared to possibly landing into waves the size of houses and into freezing cold water.
Like in anything its about risk reduction so dont go unless the sea is calm dont go around dusk when there will not be time to find you. Make sure you carry all the survival gear you can possibly carry and above all do not have a blind faith in things mechanical ie piston engines.
As I have stated before always have an OUT for any situation in flying. As soon as you dont have an OUT you are playing Russian Roulette and one day you may pull the trigger with the bullit in it.
Ie if you must fly a single over long water distances make sure you have every scenario covered and plan for the worst case or take a twin
The only parachute is on a cirrus. The undercarriage is very much part of the shock absorbtion so you would probably break your back going into water under the chute.
Personally I would rather stay with the aircraft than jumping out and rely on my skills to put her in.
Pace
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What are the thoughts of those of you with in depth (no pun intended sorry) knowledge of ditching, practical or theoretical, regarding bailing out if you have a parachute and height enough to do safely bail out, rather than ditching?
Would your answer be different depending on the type of aircraft eg radial engine ratractable, radial engine fixed gear, biplane fixed gear radial engine?
Would your answer be different depending on the type of aircraft eg radial engine ratractable, radial engine fixed gear, biplane fixed gear radial engine?
Water jumps are not the same as land jumps. The worst that can happen following a land jump is that you may get dragged, and there are ways to collapse a canopy or cut it away. In the water, however, a canopy becomes a sea anchor. Lines on many modern parachutes are spectra or kevlar and difficult if not near impossible to cut. The canopy can drown you, the rig can restrict you. Most modern rigs don't have the older B12 snaps which allow you to quickly release your leg straps...getting in and out of the parachute harness isn't so easy.
Once you're in the water, unless you're wearing an inflatable LPU (life preserver unit) you're not not going to float for long. You're going to need protection from hypothermia...even relatively water will sap your energy and kill you before long. 50-60 degrees F is certainly cool enough to kill you, and much colder, you can expect your survival time to go down drastically.
What you're wearing makes a difference, both in the amount of heat loss you'll experience, and the amount of exertion you'll have to do to fight the clothing as you try to tread water or swim.
If you've never searched for a person from the air in water, you may not appreciate how difficult a single person is to find. If you're not with the aircraft, but floating on your own, you may well survive but never be found...and then not survive after all.
In some cases modern zero porosity parachute gear can be used for flotation, but if you're going to do this you need training.
In my opinion, nobody should put on a parachute without proper training and some jump experience...if you're going to wear one for aerobatics or any other purpose, you should be properly trained in it's use, parachute emergencies, free fall, landings, etc.
Thanks, Chuck
It was precisely what you describe that prompted me to ask the question. The Cessna floatplane wheels down flipover was a pretty good demonstration! But I was thinking of a fixed-gear 150 vs a wheels-up ditching in a twin or even a single. Leaving aside the sea state, the faster you're going with those wheels sticking down, the more violent the flip's going to be. Wheels up, at least you have a fuselage to bounce along on until you dig the nose or a wing in.
Congonhas, yes, and isn't it reassuring to have all that smooth, building-free farmland around?
I think the PBY's at the TAM museum at Sao Carlos (?). I wonder how it and the other aircraft are getting on after Rolim's sudden departure.
It was precisely what you describe that prompted me to ask the question. The Cessna floatplane wheels down flipover was a pretty good demonstration! But I was thinking of a fixed-gear 150 vs a wheels-up ditching in a twin or even a single. Leaving aside the sea state, the faster you're going with those wheels sticking down, the more violent the flip's going to be. Wheels up, at least you have a fuselage to bounce along on until you dig the nose or a wing in.
Congonhas, yes, and isn't it reassuring to have all that smooth, building-free farmland around?
I think the PBY's at the TAM museum at Sao Carlos (?). I wonder how it and the other aircraft are getting on after Rolim's sudden departure.
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Congonhas, yes, and isn't it reassuring to have all that smooth, building-free farmland around?
I preferred taking off IFR in the PBY, then I couldn't see all those buildings for miles and miles.
Mmmmm PPruuune!
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not me, mate . . . . . . ! !
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if you think that is dangerous you may like to know that the spray in the background is from the rest of the formation. Video on youtube somewhere but pretty spectacular and as you say something to heighten the senses.
just found it YouTube - The Runway is Wet - Precision low level flying or search for runway is wet.
just found it YouTube - The Runway is Wet - Precision low level flying or search for runway is wet.
Moderator
In addition to extremely skillful piloting, an important element of this being possible is the brakes being held, so as to cause the wheels to hydroplane. Not that it would not go further in if allowed to, but it will sit with some stability that way. It also requires a taildragger. You just cannot make a nosewheel plane hydroplane on the mains, without the nosewheel being in the water already (no brake).
I have somewhat accidentally done this a few times taking off from a water covered frozen lake in the spring in the 185. Nowhere near the grace demonstrated by these guys though!
Pilot DAR
I have somewhat accidentally done this a few times taking off from a water covered frozen lake in the spring in the 185. Nowhere near the grace demonstrated by these guys though!
Pilot DAR
One of the best aviation survival sites I have come across on the web is here:
EQUIPPED TO SURVIVE (tm) - Ditching an Aircraft
Lots of good info & 1st hand accounts of ditching light aircraft...
EQUIPPED TO SURVIVE (tm) - Ditching an Aircraft
Lots of good info & 1st hand accounts of ditching light aircraft...
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Just a quick question to anybody who knows for sure -
Was just thinking about Ethiopian 961, the 767 that ditched into the water after it was hijacked and ran out of fuel. I've heard that many of the passengers died because they inflated their life-jackets BEFORE leaving the aircraft, and could not swim out of the fuselage.
I presume then, that all airline life-jackets, used in large commercial jets, are NOT self-inflating (i.e. they will ONLY inflate if you pull the cord, water contact will not automatically inflate them). It's probably a very obvious thing, but is anybody able to confirm this?
Was just thinking about Ethiopian 961, the 767 that ditched into the water after it was hijacked and ran out of fuel. I've heard that many of the passengers died because they inflated their life-jackets BEFORE leaving the aircraft, and could not swim out of the fuselage.
I presume then, that all airline life-jackets, used in large commercial jets, are NOT self-inflating (i.e. they will ONLY inflate if you pull the cord, water contact will not automatically inflate them). It's probably a very obvious thing, but is anybody able to confirm this?
Birds do occasionally crash
I was driving along Lake Superior of a windy gusty day and came to a bay where a loon (high wing loading) was attempting to land in very confused waves.
It went end over end upon contacting the water
If you are flying overwater, find out the sea state and temperature and ask yourself if you are ready to ditch in that.
The AF types do have single person life rafts that seem to offer better odds of being available after exiting.
Have a PLB in your pocket.
On a brighter note, a Grumman Tiger or Cheetah went down in the Denmark Strait and floated for a number of days
On a sadder note, a Cessna Centurion went down in the same strait in a heavy sea state and the occupants were never found
It went end over end upon contacting the water
If you are flying overwater, find out the sea state and temperature and ask yourself if you are ready to ditch in that.
The AF types do have single person life rafts that seem to offer better odds of being available after exiting.
Have a PLB in your pocket.
On a brighter note, a Grumman Tiger or Cheetah went down in the Denmark Strait and floated for a number of days
On a sadder note, a Cessna Centurion went down in the same strait in a heavy sea state and the occupants were never found
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I presume then, that all airline life-jackets, used in large commercial jets, are NOT self-inflating (i.e. they will ONLY inflate if you pull the cord, water contact will not automatically inflate them). It's probably a very obvious thing, but is anybody able to confirm this?
I later spoke to a colleague who did some sailing on the North Sea and he told me that if you take a nautical lifejacket and simply remove the salt tablet, that it works identical to an aeronautical lifejacket: only pulling the toggle will inflate it.
Aviation stuff is generally even more expensive than nautical stuff. Could have saved me a few bucks there, and have a lifejacket both for nautical and aeronautical purposes.
Note that I have never studied the inflation mechanism of a nautical lifejacket. My colleague might be completely wrong.
You'll also recall that the safety videos make the point that you are not to inflate the lifejackets until outside the aircraft.
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I've only just picked up on this thread, and not had time to read it all in detail.
However I thought you lot might like to relate to my actual experience of ditching, sort of.
Back in June this year I was the guy who managed to arrive in the middle of a fishing lake following a forced landing gone wrong in my P28R.
Having crashed through the bushes and trees at over 100kts I impacted the water (Gear up) fortunately at a relatively flat attitude, Port wing ripped off and my starboard one also missing a couple of feet as I went through the shrubbery. By the way my final manoeuvre ended up with the aircraft rotating 180 as I impacted the water.
So far so good, nothing was hurting. As I sat there watching the water start to fill at an approximate rate of an inch per second, already at my waist level. I'd forgotten to crack open the door in my descent. I now tried to open the door, it wouldn't budge, this is where I became really frightened, “survived the crash but then drowned!” Panic!
I found some inner strength and managed somehow to slowly open the door. The water was less than a foot up the door but the pressure differential was so great. Fortunately for me I was able to get out onto the wing before the aircraft sank to within 6 or so inches from submerging the cockpit. It is just amazing how much force there is with the water pressure differential.
I'm glad I didn’t wait until the aircraft was submerged before trying to open the door otherwise I would have drowned I’m sure. A subsequent visit to the AAIB, the door was checked and would open and close easily, so there hadn't been any distortion caused to jam the door, as I first imagined.
If I’d had the gear (ONLY 2) down when I hit the water, I’m sure I would have ended up in the water inverted and this story would have had a more sombre conclusion.
My advice in this situation is do not wait until it submerges, just get that door open as soon as you can, preferably whilst still airborne, (I forgot as I was somewhat preoccupied) and TRY and keep calm.
Both impacts with the shrubbery and water were quite severe. Wearing my seatbelt tight definitely contributed to me not hitting my head etc into the controls and avionics. I've made mention to my incident on the Flyer forum how I notice that a lot of pilots neglect to wear their diagonal harnesses.
When your going in, your mind will be too preoccupied with everything else, there won't be time to even think of fumbling to pull out your still neatly folded diagonal. It may well just save you. It worked for me.
However I thought you lot might like to relate to my actual experience of ditching, sort of.
Back in June this year I was the guy who managed to arrive in the middle of a fishing lake following a forced landing gone wrong in my P28R.
Having crashed through the bushes and trees at over 100kts I impacted the water (Gear up) fortunately at a relatively flat attitude, Port wing ripped off and my starboard one also missing a couple of feet as I went through the shrubbery. By the way my final manoeuvre ended up with the aircraft rotating 180 as I impacted the water.
So far so good, nothing was hurting. As I sat there watching the water start to fill at an approximate rate of an inch per second, already at my waist level. I'd forgotten to crack open the door in my descent. I now tried to open the door, it wouldn't budge, this is where I became really frightened, “survived the crash but then drowned!” Panic!
I found some inner strength and managed somehow to slowly open the door. The water was less than a foot up the door but the pressure differential was so great. Fortunately for me I was able to get out onto the wing before the aircraft sank to within 6 or so inches from submerging the cockpit. It is just amazing how much force there is with the water pressure differential.
I'm glad I didn’t wait until the aircraft was submerged before trying to open the door otherwise I would have drowned I’m sure. A subsequent visit to the AAIB, the door was checked and would open and close easily, so there hadn't been any distortion caused to jam the door, as I first imagined.
If I’d had the gear (ONLY 2) down when I hit the water, I’m sure I would have ended up in the water inverted and this story would have had a more sombre conclusion.
My advice in this situation is do not wait until it submerges, just get that door open as soon as you can, preferably whilst still airborne, (I forgot as I was somewhat preoccupied) and TRY and keep calm.
Both impacts with the shrubbery and water were quite severe. Wearing my seatbelt tight definitely contributed to me not hitting my head etc into the controls and avionics. I've made mention to my incident on the Flyer forum how I notice that a lot of pilots neglect to wear their diagonal harnesses.
When your going in, your mind will be too preoccupied with everything else, there won't be time to even think of fumbling to pull out your still neatly folded diagonal. It may well just save you. It worked for me.
Last edited by aceflyer-jerz; 17th Dec 2008 at 17:13.