Why do people give up?
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OK, so this seems to veer a bit towards a certified vs. Microlight a/c thread. I do not doubt the capabilities of some of these Micro machines (been in a couple - as pax - that could fly loopings around the stuff I fly), but here's a question: suppose you go down the Micro route and do most of your flying in those. Do the hours count towards your PPL(A)? In other words, is this an either-or choice (other than just maintaining your PPL(A) by doing the requisite hours every other year, of course)?
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I've kind of gone down this road. I passed a PPL 2 1/2 years ago then went onto 275 hours in an Ikarus c42, which none count toward the PPL hours. I then went onto an RV6 which I know have 125 hours on.
Strange but from my experience the IFR club aircraft do the local bacon butty runs and the VFR microlights tend to do all the touring around europe. Just what I see of course.
I think the clubs can sometimes be very reluctant to let there potential hirers move away especially to LAA / micro types. Ironically they can end up getting bored and give up anyway.
It was mentioned about mentoring after passing a PPL and I think that it is what happened to me without me realising it. I was lucky enough to fall into LAA/micro types and clocked loads of hours at the same time getting involved and looking after your own aircraft for me increased the interest.
Strange but from my experience the IFR club aircraft do the local bacon butty runs and the VFR microlights tend to do all the touring around europe. Just what I see of course.
I think the clubs can sometimes be very reluctant to let there potential hirers move away especially to LAA / micro types. Ironically they can end up getting bored and give up anyway.
It was mentioned about mentoring after passing a PPL and I think that it is what happened to me without me realising it. I was lucky enough to fall into LAA/micro types and clocked loads of hours at the same time getting involved and looking after your own aircraft for me increased the interest.
bose-x, your reply is exactly what I refered to in my previous.
When I got my nppl (m) it took me just 8 weeks to "get off this island" under my own steam. I took part in Wingspan 2003 when, one day in August, 98 microlights crossed the channel for a night in France, Abbeville to be precise. A fair mix of flexwings and 3 axis machines. That was when I saw the true spirit and comradeship of microlighting for the first time. It is not the burning through the sky at 140kts that is what flying is about, it is the loose formations at 60mph, the watching out for each other over the channel, camping and enjoying a few pints with a few like minded folk, mucking in and helping with the inevitable technical issues.
Just because the airspeeds are lower, and the duration is only 3 hours, don't think that you can't go places. If you view the flying AS the holiday, taking two days to get down to the Loire Valley doesn't matter. Blois is three stops from Brimpton. Brimpton - Headcorn - Abbeville (overnight) Abbeville - Chartres - Blois (Onzain). Onzain is a 400 m rough grass airfield next to a permanent campsite. Free landings, 8 Euros a day to camp, swim, shower etc. They have a bar, restaurant and shop on site and they make us welcome. This year my partner came with me and we were away for 7 days. The aircraft is a two seat microlight with a 2 stroke engine, 52 horsepower, 500cc pull start.
As one of my friends noted, if we just went to the airfield in the morning, pulled the aircraft from the hangar, turned the key and went to Blois in one hop we probably wouldn't bother. Too easy. Might as well go by commercial airline.
It is partly because the trip involves a certain amount of planning (make sure that the en-route airfields are open, with fuel), much care with selection of luggage and tools (weight is always tight), carry enough 2 stroke oil to get to the next known supply and being resourceful enough to get by. It is the challenge that makes it worthwhile.
When I got my nppl (m) it took me just 8 weeks to "get off this island" under my own steam. I took part in Wingspan 2003 when, one day in August, 98 microlights crossed the channel for a night in France, Abbeville to be precise. A fair mix of flexwings and 3 axis machines. That was when I saw the true spirit and comradeship of microlighting for the first time. It is not the burning through the sky at 140kts that is what flying is about, it is the loose formations at 60mph, the watching out for each other over the channel, camping and enjoying a few pints with a few like minded folk, mucking in and helping with the inevitable technical issues.
Just because the airspeeds are lower, and the duration is only 3 hours, don't think that you can't go places. If you view the flying AS the holiday, taking two days to get down to the Loire Valley doesn't matter. Blois is three stops from Brimpton. Brimpton - Headcorn - Abbeville (overnight) Abbeville - Chartres - Blois (Onzain). Onzain is a 400 m rough grass airfield next to a permanent campsite. Free landings, 8 Euros a day to camp, swim, shower etc. They have a bar, restaurant and shop on site and they make us welcome. This year my partner came with me and we were away for 7 days. The aircraft is a two seat microlight with a 2 stroke engine, 52 horsepower, 500cc pull start.
As one of my friends noted, if we just went to the airfield in the morning, pulled the aircraft from the hangar, turned the key and went to Blois in one hop we probably wouldn't bother. Too easy. Might as well go by commercial airline.
It is partly because the trip involves a certain amount of planning (make sure that the en-route airfields are open, with fuel), much care with selection of luggage and tools (weight is always tight), carry enough 2 stroke oil to get to the next known supply and being resourceful enough to get by. It is the challenge that makes it worthwhile.
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Sticky reporting point
Hi Guys,
To get back to the original purpose of the thread, namely to find out why people give up, here's an idea. Moderators please note.
Why not place a sticky on this thread headed, 'Tell us why are you giving up' Then Ppruners at least, who are giving up, will be able to tell us their reasons for hanging up their headsets before they depart.
Over time, this should give us at least some anecdotal information about why people pack in flying.
Broomstick.
To get back to the original purpose of the thread, namely to find out why people give up, here's an idea. Moderators please note.
Why not place a sticky on this thread headed, 'Tell us why are you giving up' Then Ppruners at least, who are giving up, will be able to tell us their reasons for hanging up their headsets before they depart.
Over time, this should give us at least some anecdotal information about why people pack in flying.
Broomstick.
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from my experience the IFR club aircraft do the local bacon butty runs
Whereas the VFR-only types are more affordable for outright ownership.
Mind you, it might also be worth looking at the demographics of the two pilot populations (the £100 burger one, and the touring one). I bet you the latter has a lot higher average age - they tend to hav emore time to play.
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Just because the airspeeds are lower, and the duration is only 3 hours, don't think that you can't go places.
I was not belittling Micro-light flying, I still fly ML frequently, but if that was all that was left to me I would probably give up. I have done all the places that you can reasonably go in a ML and to be frank the idea of camping does not appeal to me.
I regularly cross swords on here with IO540 out of mischief but when it comes to realising the utility of faster machinery and the ability it gives us to see the world under our own steam he is bang on.
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IO540..right on bro
Its a two pronged thing I believe. Firstly, over regulation and controlled airspace protocols do no favours for the nascient qualified pilot. Its threatening and any sniff at going beyond the comfort zone of "home Navs" is beyond the realm of acceptable difficulty. Given that most club a/c are only available for a few hours of the day unless guarantees are given for days away, this makes the whole deal fairly expensive. Regulatory costs and all the naff crap associated with the licence has just got beyond the realm of common sense. Instructors walk around looking like Easy Jet F\o's and the once warm embrace of the Aero Club is a rarity.
Secondly, expense, expense and expense. To use the ticket effectively, a pilot needs a share a/c or an outright ownership. No longer a realistic financial alternative unless you offset the machine towards a business. An annual on a 4 seat spam will be around 3 to 5 k GBP. Hangarage no less than 1800 and insurance, the same again almost. Avgas is at ballistic levels aside from the fact that the barrel is down. UK landing fees get ridiculous at fields that seem to deter GA but are the closest to the connurbations of need and the CPRE are out to kill aviation, period, driving up the fees and useage restrictions at the smaller fields even more.
To wit, PPL erosion is down to the poor AOPA, CAA management and lack of club mentoring that should otherwise support all fresh PPL's in their first 3 years of flying. "Soft mentoring" such as the French encourage is seen as anathema here...v sad. Hey, but microlighting...thats where its still good and healthy and needs as discussed previously, another thread!!
Secondly, expense, expense and expense. To use the ticket effectively, a pilot needs a share a/c or an outright ownership. No longer a realistic financial alternative unless you offset the machine towards a business. An annual on a 4 seat spam will be around 3 to 5 k GBP. Hangarage no less than 1800 and insurance, the same again almost. Avgas is at ballistic levels aside from the fact that the barrel is down. UK landing fees get ridiculous at fields that seem to deter GA but are the closest to the connurbations of need and the CPRE are out to kill aviation, period, driving up the fees and useage restrictions at the smaller fields even more.
To wit, PPL erosion is down to the poor AOPA, CAA management and lack of club mentoring that should otherwise support all fresh PPL's in their first 3 years of flying. "Soft mentoring" such as the French encourage is seen as anathema here...v sad. Hey, but microlighting...thats where its still good and healthy and needs as discussed previously, another thread!!
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One more reason...
I do my best to continue, but have to cope with a new hurdle... We're about to buy a house, and had to take a life-insurance to make the funding easier. The standard conditions do not cover me in case of accident in a light aircraft.
The only solution I have is to subscribe a separate insurance for the same amount, which is increasing the cost of my flying... again.
The only solution I have is to subscribe a separate insurance for the same amount, which is increasing the cost of my flying... again.
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The only solution I have is to subscribe a separate insurance for the same amount, which is increasing the cost of my flying... again.
When I first started driving I could only afford third party insurance. I took the risk and realised that the insurance I had saved over a few years by having third party rather than comprehensive would have paid for two complete cars.
ie you cannot insure against everything in life and anyway if you crashed a light aircraft you wouldnt be around to worry about your house anyway!
I hope you get my message
Pace
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I took the risk and realised that the insurance I had saved over a few years by having third party rather than comprehensive would have paid for two complete cars.
I think most large fleets are insured 3rd party only, because fully comp would be an obvious waste of money.Incidentally, life insurance started before one started flying remains valid afterwards. The important thing is that at the time you took it out, you were not flying, nor planning to be.
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The only solution I have is to subscribe a separate insurance for the same amount, which is increasing the cost of my flying... again.
PlasticPilot, shop around. Not every insurer will agree to accept you, but I was in a similar situation some years back (ok, different times, but still...) and quite easily found one who was happy to insure me. The rate, I hasten to add, was (and is) very competitive. All that was needed was to fill in an 'aviation questionnaire'.
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Many interesting points of view here. It is a shame that many people get bored with aviation and then give it up.
I suppose it's like most other things in life, keep pushing boundaries and try something new. A lot of pilots seem to get stuck in the "£100 burger & cuppa run" rut which inevitably after the umpteenth time leads to much boredom. But why not try something new?
Cost is a major barrier to most of us - me included! - but trying new places & making a trip out of it, say a weekend away, can probably help make the difference. Of course the weather has to be good, there again an IR can make the difference there!
I have always fancied once I'm qualified taking a weekend trip to the Western Isles - a couple of folks from the club did that last year and it looked a good trip. Either that or taking a week off work and take a trip up to the far North of Scotland.
There's lots of other things to do - air rallies, aerobatics, instructing etc. etc. etc. I suppose you have to look for what you want out of aviation.
Just my thoughts.
Smithy
I suppose it's like most other things in life, keep pushing boundaries and try something new. A lot of pilots seem to get stuck in the "£100 burger & cuppa run" rut which inevitably after the umpteenth time leads to much boredom. But why not try something new?
Cost is a major barrier to most of us - me included! - but trying new places & making a trip out of it, say a weekend away, can probably help make the difference. Of course the weather has to be good, there again an IR can make the difference there!
I have always fancied once I'm qualified taking a weekend trip to the Western Isles - a couple of folks from the club did that last year and it looked a good trip. Either that or taking a week off work and take a trip up to the far North of Scotland.
There's lots of other things to do - air rallies, aerobatics, instructing etc. etc. etc. I suppose you have to look for what you want out of aviation.
Just my thoughts.
Smithy
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I almost gave up when I was at the circuits stage - I had an instructor whom I didn't get on with, but after having a bit of a head to head with him, & pointing out who was the customer here, I persevered & finally he sent me off solo - made my best landing ever & the club sacked him later that day!!! I guess I'm not the only one he wasn't popular with!
Having got my license a bit over 18 months ago I've not used it a great deal since, & I think a lot of the reason is due to a lack of people who appreciate it, to share it with. I'm sure perhaps if you're with a sizeable club who organize things both on & off the ground it must make it all more interesting & obviously cost plays a part - landing fees at Southend where I learnt are now £20.
I recently got back in touch with a cousin I hadn't seen or heard from for about 40 years only to find he took his PPL at the same age I did! (albeit 7 years ago as he's older). We've now flown together a few times, he has an aerobatic Zlin & has introduced me to both aeros & farm strip flying & all of a sudden things seem much more exciting - I'm looking at getting a tailwheel conversion & purchasing a VLA which will be far cheaper to fly (even with the maintenance & hangarage), & a lot more interesting, than the spamcans I've been used to & hopefully may find some others to share costs with & get a small group going.
All I would say to anyone that's thinking of giving up is don't - persevere, get your licence & then look around a bit - join some forums
, join the LAA & see just what else there is outside of the typical flying school environment.
Having got my license a bit over 18 months ago I've not used it a great deal since, & I think a lot of the reason is due to a lack of people who appreciate it, to share it with. I'm sure perhaps if you're with a sizeable club who organize things both on & off the ground it must make it all more interesting & obviously cost plays a part - landing fees at Southend where I learnt are now £20.
I recently got back in touch with a cousin I hadn't seen or heard from for about 40 years only to find he took his PPL at the same age I did! (albeit 7 years ago as he's older). We've now flown together a few times, he has an aerobatic Zlin & has introduced me to both aeros & farm strip flying & all of a sudden things seem much more exciting - I'm looking at getting a tailwheel conversion & purchasing a VLA which will be far cheaper to fly (even with the maintenance & hangarage), & a lot more interesting, than the spamcans I've been used to & hopefully may find some others to share costs with & get a small group going.
All I would say to anyone that's thinking of giving up is don't - persevere, get your licence & then look around a bit - join some forums
, join the LAA & see just what else there is outside of the typical flying school environment.
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Pace, I got your point, but I don't agree:
The point is not to be insured for everything, but my wife is not working for the time being. If the worst had to happen, I don't want to leave her and our kid with a mortgage to pay and no job. Was having a family been mentionned as possible brake to aviation ?
ie you cannot insure against everything in life and anyway if you crashed a light aircraft you wouldnt be around to worry about your house anyway!
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the best way to stay in flying is to get away from one's flying school
). Post PPL things are not so positive. On the plus side they inevitably have an aircraft available for me, even at short notice. On the other side, their hire rates are well above average and there seems to be nothing organised for PPL graduates. Even shared flying is discouraged.
I am an IT contractor out of work for a few months so I've grounded myself until things get going again financially. I don't feel too bad about that as I've had some fun and gained good experience after passing my PPL. When I do I go up again I suspect it will be at another flying club (not sure which one as yet).
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[quote]
Consider yourself lucky on aircraft availability. Most schools do not like to rent out aircraft for a day, let alone for a week-end, because it depresses utilisation.
The school I learned to fly at had two Mooney-201, an Arrow, and one C172 "Rocket" that were dedicated to after PPL-rental and were not/rarely used for training, and the rental availability of the 4 PA28s and 2 other C172s used in training was great since the main training fleet was several C150 and DV20s (Katanas) and only a small part of the PPL course was tought on PA28s.
Their business model clearly included post-PPL "upgrades" to fast tourers as well as then renting them out for proper touring.
They did organise occasional trips but what really made the difference that they encouraged you to stretch your wings on your own (You want to fly to Munich for three days? Sure! Only 5 hours flown but away for three days? Don't worry, nobody is flying this on Monday anyway so be our guest... while you are here, how about a quick revision of some radio procedures at an international airport?)
Not found anything like it here so far...
Originally Posted by IO540
The best way to stay in flying is to get away from one's flying school
DavidHoul52
It's not necessarily a poor reflection on the flying school. I had a super instructor, the schools admin person was always friendly, efficient and helpful (both good looking too
).
Post PPL things are not so positive. On the plus side they inevitably have an aircraft available for me, even at short notice. On the other side, their hire rates are well above average and there seems to be nothing organised for PPL graduates. Even shared flying is discouraged.
It's not necessarily a poor reflection on the flying school. I had a super instructor, the schools admin person was always friendly, efficient and helpful (both good looking too
).Post PPL things are not so positive. On the plus side they inevitably have an aircraft available for me, even at short notice. On the other side, their hire rates are well above average and there seems to be nothing organised for PPL graduates. Even shared flying is discouraged.
Consider yourself lucky on aircraft availability. Most schools do not like to rent out aircraft for a day, let alone for a week-end, because it depresses utilisation.
The school I learned to fly at had two Mooney-201, an Arrow, and one C172 "Rocket" that were dedicated to after PPL-rental and were not/rarely used for training, and the rental availability of the 4 PA28s and 2 other C172s used in training was great since the main training fleet was several C150 and DV20s (Katanas) and only a small part of the PPL course was tought on PA28s.
Their business model clearly included post-PPL "upgrades" to fast tourers as well as then renting them out for proper touring.
They did organise occasional trips but what really made the difference that they encouraged you to stretch your wings on your own (You want to fly to Munich for three days? Sure! Only 5 hours flown but away for three days? Don't worry, nobody is flying this on Monday anyway so be our guest... while you are here, how about a quick revision of some radio procedures at an international airport?)
Not found anything like it here so far...
Thread Starter
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I wonder why schools dont put together groups.
This would be the business model.
Six post club PPLs (or any number you like) are "organised" into a group by the club. The club leases the aircraft (plenty of lease deals are availlable) in order to avoid committing capital (which most clubs dont have anyway). The group members are responsible for meeting the costs of running the aircraft and the lease.
Advantages:
The members have their own aircraft but havent had to find much (if any) capital. They have all the availability required. Since the club maintains the aircraft they should gain the advantage of better maintenance rates (because of the clubs buying power) and all the peripheral services the club can offer (keeping an eye on the aircraft, cleaning, booking, FBO services). Of course the club gains as well because they charge for the service (which is how they now make their money). In short everyone wins and the club can even buy hours back from the group when the aircraft is not being used if this is what the group want.
In this way the club has a captive market, keeps it post PPL students happy and ensures they go on providing a source of income to the club which could well be as good as if they rented, ended up getting pi**ed off with the lack of availability and went elsewhere.
It is a good business model and I happen to know it does work.
I wonder why more clubs dont give it a go?
This would be the business model.
Six post club PPLs (or any number you like) are "organised" into a group by the club. The club leases the aircraft (plenty of lease deals are availlable) in order to avoid committing capital (which most clubs dont have anyway). The group members are responsible for meeting the costs of running the aircraft and the lease.
Advantages:
The members have their own aircraft but havent had to find much (if any) capital. They have all the availability required. Since the club maintains the aircraft they should gain the advantage of better maintenance rates (because of the clubs buying power) and all the peripheral services the club can offer (keeping an eye on the aircraft, cleaning, booking, FBO services). Of course the club gains as well because they charge for the service (which is how they now make their money). In short everyone wins and the club can even buy hours back from the group when the aircraft is not being used if this is what the group want.
In this way the club has a captive market, keeps it post PPL students happy and ensures they go on providing a source of income to the club which could well be as good as if they rented, ended up getting pi**ed off with the lack of availability and went elsewhere.
It is a good business model and I happen to know it does work.
I wonder why more clubs dont give it a go?
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It is a bit chicken and egg. 'Flying clubs' are actually training companies. their activites are thus based around attracting people to learn to fly and once they can no longer sell them anymore training persuading them to stop drinking the coffee and clear off.
Changing that model would require enthusiasm, effort and good management - in short supply across most of industry and almost unheard of in GA.
I am presently a memeber of a real flying club, but they do not have access to aircraft of their own. So there are talks, socials, flyout and fly-ins and a fair bit of trying to put things together.
But at the two 'clubs' where I trained they had touring aircraft which were under utilised, the 'clubs' used they for IMCs but had a complete aversion to taking them away....
So the majority of clubs do not encourage PPLs to stay and then there is the shear weight of restrictions, criteria and just general aggravation that is necessary to maintain a licence courtesy of JAR and now EASA. No wonder people just fade away.
Changing that model would require enthusiasm, effort and good management - in short supply across most of industry and almost unheard of in GA.
I am presently a memeber of a real flying club, but they do not have access to aircraft of their own. So there are talks, socials, flyout and fly-ins and a fair bit of trying to put things together.
But at the two 'clubs' where I trained they had touring aircraft which were under utilised, the 'clubs' used they for IMCs but had a complete aversion to taking them away....
So the majority of clubs do not encourage PPLs to stay and then there is the shear weight of restrictions, criteria and just general aggravation that is necessary to maintain a licence courtesy of JAR and now EASA. No wonder people just fade away.