Why do people give up?

[IO540]

I wonder why schools dont put together groups.

I own the copyright on that one from one of the countless previous threads on this subject

The best way to train pilots and to mentor them afterwards so they turn into people who can actually do something with that piece of paper, would be to assemble syndicates around the training planes, and when a syndicate has reached the required # (say 5 or 10 shareholders) the school flogs the plane to the syndicate, and buys a new plane. So, for every 5-10 pilots you trained that choose to hang around afterwards, you get a new plane.

One of the challenges of the above is to market the product at people with a bit of money, whereas the majority of current student intake is relatively skint. This is what Cirrus do in the USA, obviously successfully, but this strategy is slagged as "elitist" in the UK.

The other challenge is the required sea change in management attitudes, to allow experienced PPLs to hang around afterwards, so they can buy the syndicate shares, mentor pilots, etc.

Unfortunately, this whole strategy would assume decent planes, not the usual junk used on the training scene, and this has been slightly screwed by the problems at Diamond. But in say 1-2 years' time, or perhaps today with the DA40-180, you could do it.

[Fuji Abound]

The problem for most / many is the capital investment.

Also many are rightly worried about the hassle of running a group.

There are as I said many opportunities to purchase new / newish aircraft on lease back deals. This overcomes the need to "find" the capital (both the club and the members). Of course you potentially pay a premium but it may be a whole lot less than you would imagine.

Doing it this way is an unusual win win situation. The club members get a shiny new(ish) aircraft fully maintained and run by an FBO, with a supply of people wanting to join the syndicate, good availability and at a reasonable cost. Inevitably more costly however than renting. The club make money out of providing the FBO services and are potentially able to use the aircraft when not being used by the members.

I know it works because I did just this with a club ten years ago. It worked really well until the club went bust for other reasons. I know of another club that did the same thing recently for a short while. I am not sure why they ceased. Sadly they may think they can make more money out of straight hire - done properly they would be wrong.

IO - perhaps we should copyright the idea, as I have done it and you have revisited it more recently. Sadly, having seen how some people treat property which is not theirs (and even when it is theirs but they only have a part share) - as the saying goes - it would not be for me at the club level however.

[IO540]

There are as I said many opportunities to purchase new / newish aircraft on lease back deals. This overcomes the need to "find" the capital (both the club and the members). Of course you potentially pay a premium but it may be a whole lot less than you would imagine.

The problem with financing (borrowing money to buy the thing) is that the interest has to be chucked into the equation.

Whereas if one buys a long life asset with cash, one doesn't have to do that. OK, an accountant would argue that one always should, but if one did that with everything in life, one would die extremely rich, with all one's assets in investment vehicles, and with bed sores because one never got out of bed

Buying planes on finance happens to be a very American thing - a lot of people there do it. Every year they meet up with their financial advisor for an appraisal of their net worth, and when the bottom line falls below some figure they get the Prozac out. What a way to live! I paid 200k for the TB20 in 2002; I could get maybe 130k for it now (maybe) but who cares? I was up even in today's crappy weather, drilling holes in some clouds and popping out of the bottom at 800ft on an instrument approach afterwards. And one can go places too, seriously. Priceless! That's the package you have to sell to people. And that is the biggest challenge. One cannot build any kind of meaningful business model around customers who are scraping out the bottom of the barrel. One can (and should) accomodate those, but one needs the affluent ones to do the real funding.

[steveking]

The club I learnt at is quite happy to have PPL's hanging around and I visit there regular in my aircraft but I know that I have to be carefull not to take people flying from there. I do do it occasionly with very good friends but I understand the club at the end of the day is a buisness and I think they can see it as taking some buisness away from them. There are very few aircraft owners there and people learning don't have much to inspire them after passing.

It has been mentioned about clubs doing syndicates. Where I keep my aircraft there is a microlight school and the instructor got a CTSW to teach in. He quickly moved on to selling 5 shares in it which attracted more students as it's much cheaper to learn in your own aircraft than renting. There are now 5 CTSW's on our field all students and syndicate owners who have gone through this instructor. He never discourages his qualifed students from hanging around and is always organising fly outs for everyone. He took 9 CTSW's all round Spain this summer and half of the pilots had only passed that summer. He has mentioned that when a new student arrives they see what everyone else is up to and want the same. So all the X students are helping to promote his club.

It would be nice to see this at the GA club where I learnt but sadly not. It is a shame as I have good friends at both clubs but my JAR PPL friends seem to not to have the same fun as some of the NPPL M friends I have. I can't believe it's all down to cost as the hourly rate in the CTSW if you don't own it is similar to that of the GA club and the shares come in at £12k each.

I do think that the micro club at my field has filled the gap we are all talking about, mentoring and interesting flying after passing it just needs to be repeated at some of the GA clubs.

[BigJoeRice]

I gave up my PPL because when I really gave it some honest thought, I concluded I really wasn't that good at it. I was competent enough to solo after 8 hours and GFT at 43 hours, but it never seemed that, in the parlance, I strapped in and became part of the aircraft. I could "operate it" but not really "fly it". After 77 hours, it seemed that I wasn't much more proficent than I was at the GFT, so I decided I should stop before I did something more embarrssing than being a bit late on the round out now and again.

I wonder how many people who quote "economics" and job or family constraints as the reason they quit, did not also reach the same conclusion, but didn't want to admit it to themselves - or peers and significant others?

[Lister Noble]

A very sound post

I'm sure there are lots of PPL's out there like me,around 150-200 hrs.
Flying the same sort of aircraft they learned in and not doing any sort of further training.
I decided to buy a share in a tailwheel aircraft,did the conversion training and also have done two sets of spin avoidance and recovery training,which I will continue.
We need to have some confidence in our flying ability and that won't come quickly with our 30-40 hrs/year.

You don't have to spend £220 K,have a glass cockpit, be flash etc to enjoy your flying.
I fly an ex US Army aircraft that is 66 years old and saw action in WW2,it's slow but very responsive,a joy to fly and welcome at every airshow in the UK.
The last one I went to I was asked if I minded parking next to the P51 Mustang!
It cost £40/hr wet ,that is all in, plus a small amount according to the state of the engine fund ,normally a couple of hundred a year.
The 1/14 share I bought cost £1250.
We book using the internet and being retired I am able to fly almost whenever I wan't,even when I was working it was never a problem as I live 15 mins from the strip.
OK there is quite a waiting list to join the group,and I was very lucky to be invited.
But there are lots of reasonable priced groups and unless you are very rich that is the way to go.
You don't have to fly IMC,in a flash plane, with tons of gear to enjoy flying!
Honestly,you learn to fly to be up there with the birds.
All my airline pilots pals fly Pitts etc,and go up for 30 mins max.
Their advice to me is " If you wan't to go somewhere,get in the back of an airliner,let someone else fly and have a large G&T".
Lister

[IO540]

All my airline pilots pals fly Pitts etc,and go up for 30 mins max.
Their advice to me is " If you wan't to go somewhere,get in the back of an airliner,let someone else fly and have a large G&T".

That's very true - very few airline pilots are interested in flying IFR privately - but if you flew a highly automated and procedure-bound aircraft on the same legs a few times a day, you would be thoroughly sick of IFR too

I would never pretend that being able to fly say 800nm somewhere beats doing it by an airline. Of course it costs a lot more. In some cases it is valuable, e.g. when carrying special tools or equipment; more so when it avoid a long trek to Stansted. But - for me - the adventure does add a very valuable dimension to flying and the occassional such trip does make the whole thing much more interesting. However, if I did such a trip every week I would soon be sick of flying. It would be 500hrs/year which is a ludicrous time to spend in a light aircraft.

[Mickey Kaye]

"I wonder why schools dont put together groups"

Oh that brought a smile to my face and totally agree with you.

However going back some 10-15 years the wise big chief at tollerton aerodrome who also ran the flying club BANNED group aircraft with more than 4 shares.

They thought people were flying the group aeroplanes and not hiring the club one enough.

I thought this was dreadfully short sighted at the time. And having recently visited Tollerton only to find it very quite I have to conclude that I was correct and they were wrong. (Comments an opinion, based on a 30 min visit, which is hardly scientific I know)