Check outs
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David, have you asked the instructor to explain to you why the turn to final should be at 20 degrees, not more? Not just "because the book says so" but the actual aerodynamics involved in making turns when being about 30% above the stall?
Limiting your turns to final to 20 degrees AoB is normal aviation practice and has come about because a lot of people lost their lives by doing more, with not enough speed.
Limiting your turns to final to 20 degrees AoB is normal aviation practice and has come about because a lot of people lost their lives by doing more, with not enough speed.
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As I said - there are reasons for thinking the "new" way as better and I absolutely agree with you. I've been taught to use 30 degrees when the speed on base leg is 70 knots. 20 degrees would certainly be more advisable at 65 knots. There was a difference in circuit height between this airfield and the usual 1000 feet agl so the base leg is flown 5 knots slower.
Thanks for pointing this out.
Thanks for pointing this out.
A couple of points
1) When you rent an airplane it is not your airplane it belongs to the flying organization you are renting it from. It is therefore entirely reasonable IMO that they specify how they want it operated and (within reason) you should do so.
2) While there is undoubtably real wankers as flying instructors, the fact remains that however junior the guy checking you out is, he by definition will have higher professional flying qualifications and more flying time than you, David Houl, has and therefore "probably" knows more than you on any given subject relating to flying airplanes. You should listen to what he/she has to say.
2) The point of a checkout is to ensure you can safely operate the aircraft. The problem of course is there is no one definition of "safely operate an airplane". So in the spirit of point one I think in the interests of getting the checkout done, detailed discussions on how to conduct the flight on the part of the student is counterproductive.
3) I have been flying for a long time in many different areas of sport and commercial flying and in 58 different types of aircraft. I still find stuff I did not know and see and adopt ways to be a better pilot. DavidHoul's post seem to contain a measure of close mindedness to consider alternative ideas which I find quite troublesome in a new pilot.
1) When you rent an airplane it is not your airplane it belongs to the flying organization you are renting it from. It is therefore entirely reasonable IMO that they specify how they want it operated and (within reason) you should do so.
2) While there is undoubtably real wankers as flying instructors, the fact remains that however junior the guy checking you out is, he by definition will have higher professional flying qualifications and more flying time than you, David Houl, has and therefore "probably" knows more than you on any given subject relating to flying airplanes. You should listen to what he/she has to say.
2) The point of a checkout is to ensure you can safely operate the aircraft. The problem of course is there is no one definition of "safely operate an airplane". So in the spirit of point one I think in the interests of getting the checkout done, detailed discussions on how to conduct the flight on the part of the student is counterproductive.
3) I have been flying for a long time in many different areas of sport and commercial flying and in 58 different types of aircraft. I still find stuff I did not know and see and adopt ways to be a better pilot. DavidHoul's post seem to contain a measure of close mindedness to consider alternative ideas which I find quite troublesome in a new pilot.
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There will always be good and bad instructors, just as you would get in any profession. I have had brilliant ones and not so brilliant, I have only ever ditched one instructor who whilst being an excellent pilot his instructional skills were a bit lame.
My view is that if an FI shows you another of doing something (such as downwind checks), then listen and see what you think. Some you will swap to and others you will dismiss, there is more than one way to skin a cat and they may have a better way than your adequate way!
I wouldnt tell them to shut up straight away - unless of course they are being a pompous @rse then just decide nod and get the hour over and done with so you go off on your own.
J.
My view is that if an FI shows you another of doing something (such as downwind checks), then listen and see what you think. Some you will swap to and others you will dismiss, there is more than one way to skin a cat and they may have a better way than your adequate way!
I wouldnt tell them to shut up straight away - unless of course they are being a pompous @rse then just decide nod and get the hour over and done with so you go off on your own.
J.
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David does seem to have possibly got the short straw with his instructor.
Provided HIS downwind and other checks include everything and provided he's not doing something dangerous, the instructor shouldn't really be trying to impose a whole new way of doing things on a low hour PPL.
Equally though, none of us should ever close our minds to the possibility that there may be more to learn about flying.
I fly for a living, so by definition I have a certain minimum level of knowledge and experience, but I am constantly learning new things from people who are more experienced than I am. Similarly, I am sure that these people are also probably also learning new stuff from people who have even more experience than they do.
One of the things that I like most about flying either as a hobby or as a career is that no matter how long you have been around aviation there is ALWAYS new stuff to learn. As someone once told me, you don't know what you don't know :-)
Provided HIS downwind and other checks include everything and provided he's not doing something dangerous, the instructor shouldn't really be trying to impose a whole new way of doing things on a low hour PPL.
Equally though, none of us should ever close our minds to the possibility that there may be more to learn about flying.
I fly for a living, so by definition I have a certain minimum level of knowledge and experience, but I am constantly learning new things from people who are more experienced than I am. Similarly, I am sure that these people are also probably also learning new stuff from people who have even more experience than they do.
One of the things that I like most about flying either as a hobby or as a career is that no matter how long you have been around aviation there is ALWAYS new stuff to learn. As someone once told me, you don't know what you don't know :-)
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DavidHoul's post seem to contain a measure of close mindedness to consider alternative ideas which I find quite troublesome in a new pilot.
Enough preaching!
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David does seem to have possibly got the short straw with his instructor.
Provided HIS downwind and other checks include everything and provided he's not doing something dangerous, the instructor shouldn't really be trying to impose a whole new way of doing things on a low hour PPL.
Equally though, none of us should ever close our minds to the possibility that there may be more to learn about flying.
I fly for a living, so by definition I have a certain minimum level of knowledge and experience, but I am constantly learning new things from people who are more experienced than I am. Similarly, I am sure that these people are also probably also learning new stuff from people who have even more experience than they do.
One of the things that I like most about flying either as a hobby or as a career is that no matter how long you have been around aviation there is ALWAYS new stuff to learn. As someone once told me, you don't know what you don't know :-)
Provided HIS downwind and other checks include everything and provided he's not doing something dangerous, the instructor shouldn't really be trying to impose a whole new way of doing things on a low hour PPL.
Equally though, none of us should ever close our minds to the possibility that there may be more to learn about flying.
I fly for a living, so by definition I have a certain minimum level of knowledge and experience, but I am constantly learning new things from people who are more experienced than I am. Similarly, I am sure that these people are also probably also learning new stuff from people who have even more experience than they do.
One of the things that I like most about flying either as a hobby or as a career is that no matter how long you have been around aviation there is ALWAYS new stuff to learn. As someone once told me, you don't know what you don't know :-)
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Limiting your turns to final to 20 degrees AoB is normal aviation practice and has come about because a lot of people lost their lives by doing more, with not enough speed.
Here is another example:
I do crosswinds using the wing down method. It has worked for me for 8 years, and in up to 25kts (TB10) - I'd even say I'm pretty good at them. No worries, never scraped a wing along the runway yet. Fly with nervous instructor who insists I use a crab method with a big bootfull of rudder last minute....Because that is the way he was taught at Oxford. He even starts interfering with the controls when I am making a perfectly good approach and landing.....idiot. He did complement me on my 180 deg turn on instruments though - no sh*t, I had a current IR so if I couldn't do that then there is seriously something wrong.......
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Actually I'd use 30 deg AOB on base to final - as I was taught a while ago now. Now on climb out on turn to crosswind, I'd limit my turn to 20 deg, maybe less.
I do crosswinds using the wing down method.
In the Cessna crosswinds up to 10 knots are not that big a deal. That's my limit anyway.
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Talk it through
I guess I must have been very fortunate to have some real gents as instructors (or they have been scared dumb
).
When being checked out on an unfamiliar a/c,I have received a ground briefing (which is always a 2 way affair,not a 'lecture').When performing an action,I have always spoken what I am doing/speeds etc to let the FI know of my intentions.They are usually happy to accept 'my' way but I am pleased to accept comments like 'maybe you're a little high' etc along the way.Never had any real issues,the debrief seems to be the best place to discuss the finer points and I think you absorb it better when back on the ground.
Keep talking to your FI's,mine have always been happy to respond to emails regarding flying techniques.
MM
).When being checked out on an unfamiliar a/c,I have received a ground briefing (which is always a 2 way affair,not a 'lecture').When performing an action,I have always spoken what I am doing/speeds etc to let the FI know of my intentions.They are usually happy to accept 'my' way but I am pleased to accept comments like 'maybe you're a little high' etc along the way.Never had any real issues,the debrief seems to be the best place to discuss the finer points and I think you absorb it better when back on the ground.
Keep talking to your FI's,mine have always been happy to respond to emails regarding flying techniques.
MM
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In the Cessna crosswinds up to 10 knots are not that big a deal. That's my limit anyway.
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David
I have read through this thread so a few comments. Firstly checks of one kind or another are part of aviation from the word go right through to those who fly commercially hold type ratings and ATPs.
As you gain experience you will develop your own ways of flying and discover your own strengths and weaknesses.
Being honest with yourself is the first goal as then you will identify the areas you need the work on rather than being self defensive against any critical attitude to your flying.
That to me shows a lack of confidence which will shine through in the wrong way to an examiner.
Mentally detach from the examiner and concentrate on flying the best you can and be open to advice even if you dont agree.
We cannot get on with everyone but especially as you climb higher in the realms of aviation you cannot choose who you are examined by.
Most examiners have their own likes and dislikes so identify those and with a confident smile play the game and try to be a bit more thick skinned and a bit more fox like.
I remember one guy who was renowned for his own ways and shouting at his students he was type rated on every Boeing made. I was on a test in a citation and the elderly guy asked for a clean approach and then gave me the full flap VREF speed and bugged it.
I noted that mistake worked out the correct VREF and carried the extra speed. Sure enough "what are you doing your way above VREF" came his angry call.
My reply with a knowing wink was " realised you were trying to catch me out on the VREF clean very clever" He coughed nervously having realised his mistake and me giving him a way out took it. The result was that I passed with glowing colours in his eyes and that was what is important.
Lighten up, chill out, realise your own weaknesses, listen to people who have a lot more experience and let your confidence speak for itself not your mouth.
Pace
I have read through this thread so a few comments. Firstly checks of one kind or another are part of aviation from the word go right through to those who fly commercially hold type ratings and ATPs.
As you gain experience you will develop your own ways of flying and discover your own strengths and weaknesses.
Being honest with yourself is the first goal as then you will identify the areas you need the work on rather than being self defensive against any critical attitude to your flying.
That to me shows a lack of confidence which will shine through in the wrong way to an examiner.
Mentally detach from the examiner and concentrate on flying the best you can and be open to advice even if you dont agree.
We cannot get on with everyone but especially as you climb higher in the realms of aviation you cannot choose who you are examined by.
Most examiners have their own likes and dislikes so identify those and with a confident smile play the game and try to be a bit more thick skinned and a bit more fox like.
I remember one guy who was renowned for his own ways and shouting at his students he was type rated on every Boeing made. I was on a test in a citation and the elderly guy asked for a clean approach and then gave me the full flap VREF speed and bugged it.
I noted that mistake worked out the correct VREF and carried the extra speed. Sure enough "what are you doing your way above VREF" came his angry call.
My reply with a knowing wink was " realised you were trying to catch me out on the VREF clean very clever" He coughed nervously having realised his mistake and me giving him a way out took it. The result was that I passed with glowing colours in his eyes and that was what is important.
Lighten up, chill out, realise your own weaknesses, listen to people who have a lot more experience and let your confidence speak for itself not your mouth.
Pace
it differently, just nod, smile, get your checkout signed and then carry on doing things like you did before
Got to this thread a little late I guess.......
A couple of points
1) When you rent an airplane it is not your airplane it belongs to the flying organization you are renting it from. It is therefore entirely reasonable IMO that they specify how they want it operated and (within reason) you should do so.
2) While there is undoubtably real wankers as flying instructors, the fact remains that however junior the guy checking you out is, he by definition will have higher professional flying qualifications and more flying time than you, David Houl, has and therefore "probably" knows more than you on any given subject relating to flying airplanes. You should listen to what he/she has to say.
2) The point of a checkout is to ensure you can safely operate the aircraft. The problem of course is there is no one definition of "safely operate an airplane". So in the spirit of point one I think in the interests of getting the checkout done, detailed discussions on how to conduct the flight on the part of the student is counterproductive.
3) I have been flying for a long time in many different areas of sport and commercial flying and in 58 different types of aircraft. I still find stuff I did not know and see and adopt ways to be a better pilot. DavidHoul's post seem to contain a measure of close mindedness to consider alternative ideas which I find quite troublesome in a new pilot.
1) When you rent an airplane it is not your airplane it belongs to the flying organization you are renting it from. It is therefore entirely reasonable IMO that they specify how they want it operated and (within reason) you should do so.
2) While there is undoubtably real wankers as flying instructors, the fact remains that however junior the guy checking you out is, he by definition will have higher professional flying qualifications and more flying time than you, David Houl, has and therefore "probably" knows more than you on any given subject relating to flying airplanes. You should listen to what he/she has to say.
2) The point of a checkout is to ensure you can safely operate the aircraft. The problem of course is there is no one definition of "safely operate an airplane". So in the spirit of point one I think in the interests of getting the checkout done, detailed discussions on how to conduct the flight on the part of the student is counterproductive.
3) I have been flying for a long time in many different areas of sport and commercial flying and in 58 different types of aircraft. I still find stuff I did not know and see and adopt ways to be a better pilot. DavidHoul's post seem to contain a measure of close mindedness to consider alternative ideas which I find quite troublesome in a new pilot.
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Thanks for all the replies.
I've been mulling over my "experience" the last few days and have come up with a few thoughts.
First of all - the instructor per se was great and we got along brilliantly (although I think he was a bit upset when I said afterwards I wondered whether it was worthwhile continuing - he wanted me to come back for a few more circuits at a later date).
It was probably the wrong time for me to think about hiring aircraft at a new airfield. Perhaps I am trying to be too adventurous. I had just got my PPL and naturally one wants to just go and have fun. The thought of more training when you've already done more than you think you can bear for the present is very off-putting. Also it breaks your new found and rather fragile confidence.
On the other hand, if not now - then when? I'm a trifle bored with my local area - having done plenty of nav in my student days. Also my fly clubs hire charges are quite a bit more than most. To fly out of the area and explore further afield is going to cost a fortune.
I'm sure everyone has had the feeling of intense frustration after a lesson which didn't go the way you would have liked. Typically after a few days I think - well it was quite a useful experience after all - and I pat myself on the back for having the courage to try it.
So- maybe not back to the nest just yet!
I've been mulling over my "experience" the last few days and have come up with a few thoughts.
First of all - the instructor per se was great and we got along brilliantly (although I think he was a bit upset when I said afterwards I wondered whether it was worthwhile continuing - he wanted me to come back for a few more circuits at a later date).
It was probably the wrong time for me to think about hiring aircraft at a new airfield. Perhaps I am trying to be too adventurous. I had just got my PPL and naturally one wants to just go and have fun. The thought of more training when you've already done more than you think you can bear for the present is very off-putting. Also it breaks your new found and rather fragile confidence.
On the other hand, if not now - then when? I'm a trifle bored with my local area - having done plenty of nav in my student days. Also my fly clubs hire charges are quite a bit more than most. To fly out of the area and explore further afield is going to cost a fortune.
I'm sure everyone has had the feeling of intense frustration after a lesson which didn't go the way you would have liked. Typically after a few days I think - well it was quite a useful experience after all - and I pat myself on the back for having the courage to try it.
So- maybe not back to the nest just yet!
Last edited by DavidHoul52; 19th Sep 2008 at 14:45.
Originally Posted by B2N2
Quote:
it differently, just nod, smile, get your checkout signed and then carry on doing things like you did before
Got to this thread a little late I guess.......
it differently, just nod, smile, get your checkout signed and then carry on doing things like you did before
Got to this thread a little late I guess.......
The assumption that an instructor is a god who can do no wrong is just as idiotic as the assumption that ones self is a god who can do no wrong. It takes a liberal dose of common sense, research, and advice from a variety of trusted sources before you can properly make your mind up as to the best procedure.
David - good post. It may be that another hour or so of circuits is just the final hurdle to jump through before you can start doing more interesting flying, and *really* start learning! I'd suggest taking him up on it, making sure you have a full discussion and briefing before the flight about what he thinks you need to cover, and how you're going to cover it. Then you can concentrate on skills while in the air, doubtless gain some valuable knowledge, and get off on your own forthwith!
It'll be worth it - I tend to regard that any dual training is good dual training!
It'll be worth it - I tend to regard that any dual training is good dual training!
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There are two sides to the checkout coin.
When doing a checkout it is up to the FI to make sure that the person is safe and that they aren't going to bend the aircraft. I fall very much into the camp of taking an overall view of someone, not just picking holes in silly little things like the order that memory checks are done in.
As long as everything is covered, then frankly who gives a monkeys?
However, if you fly with someone who is blatantly all over the shop, who for example lines up with the road not the runway, then you are well within your rights to ask for it to be done again and again until you are comfortable that the person being check out isn't going to damage your aircraft or themselves.
As I've often said here, you can tell how competent someone is going to be within the first 5 minutes of meeting them. How they conduct themselves, how they checkout the aircraft, how receptive they are to what you are saying in the brief, what planning they do and to what standard etc.etc.
The flying is often then just a formality, but with some people you almost need to start from scratch.
When someone new comes to the club, they need to be receptive to how you do things there. As soon as you hear the words "but that wasn't how I was trained" the alarm bells start ringing. Not because they were taught badly but because they are not open to new ideas and techniques.
Is this ringing any bells?
When doing a checkout it is up to the FI to make sure that the person is safe and that they aren't going to bend the aircraft. I fall very much into the camp of taking an overall view of someone, not just picking holes in silly little things like the order that memory checks are done in.
As long as everything is covered, then frankly who gives a monkeys?
However, if you fly with someone who is blatantly all over the shop, who for example lines up with the road not the runway, then you are well within your rights to ask for it to be done again and again until you are comfortable that the person being check out isn't going to damage your aircraft or themselves.
As I've often said here, you can tell how competent someone is going to be within the first 5 minutes of meeting them. How they conduct themselves, how they checkout the aircraft, how receptive they are to what you are saying in the brief, what planning they do and to what standard etc.etc.
The flying is often then just a formality, but with some people you almost need to start from scratch.
When someone new comes to the club, they need to be receptive to how you do things there. As soon as you hear the words "but that wasn't how I was trained" the alarm bells start ringing. Not because they were taught badly but because they are not open to new ideas and techniques.
Is this ringing any bells?