Check outs
A little less conversation,
a little more aviation...
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Originally Posted by IRRenewal
Dave, you had what you regard as a bad experience today with an instructor.
Dave. Give it a rest. I'm still not convinced you aren't a pure-play troll, but if you aren't, a word of advice. Private aviation in the UK is a surprisingly small world. Whilst you appear to have the decency to post under your own name, doing so whilst trying to pick a fight with people you will sooner or later end up flying with, trying to hire aircraft from, or (God help me) trying to buy into a group with, doesn't mark you out as the sharpest tool in the box - it merely marks you out as a complete tool.
Ed.
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Not that much time for such chit chat when on final approach.
Yes, I have picked a number of good tips. But I think it's important, especially for a new PPL to stick with what they've learnt to do so well over countless circuits. There may well be better ways to do certain things but if the new pilot has got it at least 90% right then give him or her the credit for it. Trying to re-train takes away the new pilots confidence in himself/herself and that confidence is very important from a safety perspective. I'm not saying OVER-confident - just confident. Overloading a new pilot with too many confusing ways of doing things is ultimately just going to lead to disaster.
The same is true for students moving from one instructor to another.
Yes, I have picked a number of good tips. But I think it's important, especially for a new PPL to stick with what they've learnt to do so well over countless circuits. There may well be better ways to do certain things but if the new pilot has got it at least 90% right then give him or her the credit for it. Trying to re-train takes away the new pilots confidence in himself/herself and that confidence is very important from a safety perspective. I'm not saying OVER-confident - just confident. Overloading a new pilot with too many confusing ways of doing things is ultimately just going to lead to disaster.
The same is true for students moving from one instructor to another.
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Whilst you appear to have the decency to post under your own name, doing so whilst trying to pick a fight with people you will sooner or later end up flying with, trying to hire aircraft from, or (God help me) trying to buy into a group with, doesn't mark you out as the sharpest tool in the box - it merely marks you out as a complete tool.
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Dave, you had what you regard as a bad experience today with an instructor. It wasn't me, I didn't instruct today. But it's threads like this that make me realise I don't miss it all that much.
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Oh lets be honest, not all instructors are perfect. There certainly are some terrible ones around.
I've had two in my time, that I'd have prefered to avoid. Admittedly I've learnt something from both of them, but overall, there were not good for my flying.
One insisted that I change the order of my downwind checks before he sign me off. Not because there was something wrong with my order, but because it was different from the order he did them, and as a result he couldn't easily check that I was actually doing them all. (He did agree that everything in my downwind checks were in his, just not the same order).
The other told me to stop running the trim wheel fully forward and fully back as part of my start up checks. He said that I should only check that it can be moved and a half roll forward and a half roll back was enough; otherwise I'm wearing it out
As Katamarino suggests, I just grinned and bared it, and afterwards did my own thing. I did learn at least one good thing from each of those two instructors, but overall, I would have prefered to avoid them (for plenty more reasons than above).
Pretty much all of the other instructors I've come across have been excellent, but it would be unfair to say that David could not have come across a plonker of one.
I've had two in my time, that I'd have prefered to avoid. Admittedly I've learnt something from both of them, but overall, there were not good for my flying.
One insisted that I change the order of my downwind checks before he sign me off. Not because there was something wrong with my order, but because it was different from the order he did them, and as a result he couldn't easily check that I was actually doing them all. (He did agree that everything in my downwind checks were in his, just not the same order).
The other told me to stop running the trim wheel fully forward and fully back as part of my start up checks. He said that I should only check that it can be moved and a half roll forward and a half roll back was enough; otherwise I'm wearing it out
As Katamarino suggests, I just grinned and bared it, and afterwards did my own thing. I did learn at least one good thing from each of those two instructors, but overall, I would have prefered to avoid them (for plenty more reasons than above).
Pretty much all of the other instructors I've come across have been excellent, but it would be unfair to say that David could not have come across a plonker of one.
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would be unfair to say that David could not have come across a plonker of one.
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Oh lets be honest, not all instructors are perfect. There certainly are some terrible ones around.
I've had two in my time, that I'd have prefered to avoid. Admittedly I've learnt something from both of them, but overall, there were not good for my flying.
One insisted that I change the order of my downwind checks before he sign me off. Not because there was something wrong with my order, but because it was different from the order he did them, and as a result he couldn't easily check that I was actually doing them all. (He did agree that everything in my downwind checks were in his, just not the same order).
The other told me to stop running the trim wheel fully forward and fully back as part of my start up checks. He said that I should only check that it can be moved and a half roll forward and a half roll back was enough; otherwise I'm wearing it out
As Katamarino suggests, I just grinned and bared it, and afterwards did my own thing. I did learn at least one good thing from each of those two instructors, but overall, I would have prefered to avoid them (for plenty more reasons than above).
Pretty much all of the other instructors I've come across have been excellent, but it would be unfair to say that David could not have come across a plonker of one.
I've had two in my time, that I'd have prefered to avoid. Admittedly I've learnt something from both of them, but overall, there were not good for my flying.
One insisted that I change the order of my downwind checks before he sign me off. Not because there was something wrong with my order, but because it was different from the order he did them, and as a result he couldn't easily check that I was actually doing them all. (He did agree that everything in my downwind checks were in his, just not the same order).
The other told me to stop running the trim wheel fully forward and fully back as part of my start up checks. He said that I should only check that it can be moved and a half roll forward and a half roll back was enough; otherwise I'm wearing it out
As Katamarino suggests, I just grinned and bared it, and afterwards did my own thing. I did learn at least one good thing from each of those two instructors, but overall, I would have prefered to avoid them (for plenty more reasons than above).
Pretty much all of the other instructors I've come across have been excellent, but it would be unfair to say that David could not have come across a plonker of one.
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Actually in my experience, there are many FI's who want to act like FE's on checkouts. Especially required checkouts. Many of them are hour building boeing-gear-operator-wannabes who are just doing it to fill their time until that can get their hand on that gear lever - later on they get to operate the flaps too I am told...
But on the other end of the scale, there are some brilliant ones who's advice is worth every penny. They tend to be the career instructors or those that instruct not because they *have* to but because they enjoy it.....
But on the other end of the scale, there are some brilliant ones who's advice is worth every penny. They tend to be the career instructors or those that instruct not because they *have* to but because they enjoy it.....
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Dave, you had what you regard as a bad experience today with an instructor.
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What point was that? What exactly was it that the FI tried to change about your flying. Was it a suggestion to change the order of your checklists? Or something else trivial (if so they should be taken out and shot) or was it that they were trying to make a suggestion about something more technical and important?
Given the comments you've made in the last couple of days . I suspect the latter.
Given the comments you've made in the last couple of days . I suspect the latter.
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I'm just raising a point.
The time I might or might not have had with someone who might or might not have been an instructor I do not considered wasted - no.
I also thought this forum needed some livening up. The other threads running at this time are dead boring.
The time I might or might not have had with someone who might or might not have been an instructor I do not considered wasted - no.
I also thought this forum needed some livening up. The other threads running at this time are dead boring.
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Had something to say just about everything... and don't jump in and say I needed it because I've been flying regularly and safely ever since my skills test.
Can one report this to the CAA I wonder?
Can one report this to the CAA I wonder?
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No. Well you could but they'd laugh at you.
Now, I'll write out 100 times. I must not feed the troll, I must not feed the troll, I must not feed the troll...........................
Now, I'll write out 100 times. I must not feed the troll, I must not feed the troll, I must not feed the troll...........................
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I really can't believe the meanness and lack of objectivity of some posters! Because a person doesn't agree with you doesn't make them a "troll". For goodness sake!
Experience is good. Reading from people who have experience is good. Some of them have posted on this forum and I'm listening to them.
Is private aviation a fascist state controlled by some kind of mafia? A forum is just that - a place where you can say what you like. Don't condemn people for saying what they understand. If you really have a convincing counter-argument then please say it. Calling people names and trying to belittle them only shows that you doubt your own position.
Experience is good. Reading from people who have experience is good. Some of them have posted on this forum and I'm listening to them.
Is private aviation a fascist state controlled by some kind of mafia? A forum is just that - a place where you can say what you like. Don't condemn people for saying what they understand. If you really have a convincing counter-argument then please say it. Calling people names and trying to belittle them only shows that you doubt your own position.
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OK. Tell us exactly what this evil and obviously incompetent FI did, then we can all tell you how hard done by you were.
We've had plenty of trolls on here before and on many other forae I occasionally frequent. Normally they ask questions in a similar manner to yourself just to get a reaction and have a childish giggle when someone bites.
You seem to have a problem in getting advice. You have received some very good bits of it here and yet you seem to ignore it.
Flying is about being mentally prepared and being willing to accept that none of us know it all. Being an arrogant know it all when you blatantly don't is one sure fire way of getting yourself killed in an aircraft.
If you want advice. Put out a specific question that people can answer and read the replies.
At the moment having had a quick look at your posting history it seems that you have held a licence for just a few months. You have a licence. Well, whoop de doo.
Congratulations on passing the skills test, but don't for one minute think that passing a PPL test makes you the best pilot in the world or even anything more than barely competent.
Imagine walking into the clubhouse and coming out with stuff like this. Your FI would be having kittens. Why do you think any of us here would be any different? There are many PPL's here, but don't you notice the lack of support for your views to be somewhat suspicious?
This isn't about FI's clubbing together, but lots of people read this site for advice, especially inexperienced ones. So if they read tripe such as you have posted, then horrifyingly they may think it's OK to act in the same manner.
A similar problem occurs with books. "It must be true. I read it in a book/magazine/etc.etc."
We've had plenty of trolls on here before and on many other forae I occasionally frequent. Normally they ask questions in a similar manner to yourself just to get a reaction and have a childish giggle when someone bites.
You seem to have a problem in getting advice. You have received some very good bits of it here and yet you seem to ignore it.
Flying is about being mentally prepared and being willing to accept that none of us know it all. Being an arrogant know it all when you blatantly don't is one sure fire way of getting yourself killed in an aircraft.
If you want advice. Put out a specific question that people can answer and read the replies.
At the moment having had a quick look at your posting history it seems that you have held a licence for just a few months. You have a licence. Well, whoop de doo.
Congratulations on passing the skills test, but don't for one minute think that passing a PPL test makes you the best pilot in the world or even anything more than barely competent.
Imagine walking into the clubhouse and coming out with stuff like this. Your FI would be having kittens. Why do you think any of us here would be any different? There are many PPL's here, but don't you notice the lack of support for your views to be somewhat suspicious?
This isn't about FI's clubbing together, but lots of people read this site for advice, especially inexperienced ones. So if they read tripe such as you have posted, then horrifyingly they may think it's OK to act in the same manner.
A similar problem occurs with books. "It must be true. I read it in a book/magazine/etc.etc."
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Congratulations on passing the skills test, but don't for one minute think that passing a PPL test makes you the best pilot in the world or even anything more than barely competent.
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Tell us exactly what this evil and obviously incompetent FI did
Maybe an example will help to explain my point better.
What I have done countless times on downwind leg is - do the pre-landing checks - during these pre-landing checks I set carb heat to hot and leave it there - I radio downwind. I turn into base leg - reduce power - two stages of flap - pitch for 65 knots. Turn on to final at 500 feet agl and 30 degree bank on to final.
Now I'm told - call downwind first - don't set carb heat to cold - just check it - turn onto base leg - carb heat on - reduce power - two stages of flap - pitch for 65 knots. Turn on to final at 500 feet agl and 20 degree bank on to final.
Ok - there's absolutely nothing wrong with this second way of doing things. I can think of reasons why it is actually better.
My point is is that it is the difference which is a) potentially a cause of confusion resulting in my forgetting something b) it increases the workload and c) it means that I need to now practice umpteen more circuits to get it right. Nice money for the flying club. Nice hours for the instructor.
If I arrived in my own aircraft or an aircraft from my "home" flying club (who are quite happy for me to fly it to any licensed airfield in the UK or Europe) I would successfully land at this new airfield with no trouble at all. I did the first way in my skills test and the CAA had no problem with it. I landed the plane - that's all that matters!
So please - I am not fighting with any instructor! It's just the system - which I realise makes sense in some ways - at least one doesn't have to pay insurance like when you hire a car - but in other ways is entirely illogical apart from an income generating point of view.
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Given that example. I would have told the FI to shut up and let me get on with it. If you are flying competently and it is a checkout not a training flight, then it isn't up to them to change what you are doing as long as you aren't doing anything daft.
I would prefer 20 deg of bank onto final when at 65 kts too, but in reality I'm not looking inside the cockpit at this time. I just want you to safely fly around the corner and onto final approach without weaving around like a drunk.
I'm a bit confused with the comments they made about carb heat, but I think I know what you mean and none of it would warrant a comment in the air. I might have a quick chat on the ground, but on a checkout I'm only seeing that you are safe without the need for intervention.
So in this case David 1 : FI 0.
I would prefer 20 deg of bank onto final when at 65 kts too, but in reality I'm not looking inside the cockpit at this time. I just want you to safely fly around the corner and onto final approach without weaving around like a drunk.
I'm a bit confused with the comments they made about carb heat, but I think I know what you mean and none of it would warrant a comment in the air. I might have a quick chat on the ground, but on a checkout I'm only seeing that you are safe without the need for intervention.
So in this case David 1 : FI 0.