Improve Light A/C Separation
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Skycop wrote:
This demonstrates the huge gulf of understanding between powered and glider pilots. From a gliding perspective this is not basic stuff, and ATC radio communication is not taught at all.
Why?
First, ATC is completely irrelevant for the majority of glider flights. We cannot use Class A airspace because we cannot comply with ATC instructions (if only I could "Climb to .." whenever I felt like it!). Class D is in theory usable, but in practice it's hard to get access in a glider, so I'm told. What this means is that almost all flights are planned to avoid controlled airspace.
Second, a FIS/RIS/RAS is also pretty useless to me. I almost never fly in straight lines for more than a few seconds, so being informed of traffic 5 miles away heading in my direction is unlikely to be of interest - by the time it arrives I'll be somewhere else, and I don't know where that will be. This means I need to rely on seeing traffic to avoid it - radio won't help. The mental workload in flying a glider is too high to try to build a mental picture of what is happening outside my field of view, as I'm constantly (every few seconds) revising my course and speed to find the best air to fly in.
Third, I don't have an RT licence - it doesn't come automatically with the glider "licence", unlike powered PPLs/NPPLs - and I can't justify the time to obtain one (effectively following what I believe is an AFIS (correct acronym?) syllabus which is 90% irrelevant to any use I might make). Thus I'm confined to the gliding frequencies and 121.5.
The main reason I frequent this site is to find more about what other users of the same airspace do. One benefit of this thread is that some airspace users now have a little better idea about what gliders do.
If you think this is a frightening gap in the training of glider pilots, just consider for a second the scary gap in IMC training for power that this thread has revealed.
There are a number of pilots who have posted here who previously flew IMC in class G under three erroneous beliefs:
a. Gliders aren't allowed at all;
b. Other aircraft aren't allowed if not transponding;
c. All IMC flight in class G are in receipt of some kind of radar service.
None of these are true. How good was their training?
Call one of them; if unsure, call the unit you are closest to ... Surely all glider pilots are taught this from an early age? It's pretty basic stuff.
Why?
First, ATC is completely irrelevant for the majority of glider flights. We cannot use Class A airspace because we cannot comply with ATC instructions (if only I could "Climb to .." whenever I felt like it!). Class D is in theory usable, but in practice it's hard to get access in a glider, so I'm told. What this means is that almost all flights are planned to avoid controlled airspace.
Second, a FIS/RIS/RAS is also pretty useless to me. I almost never fly in straight lines for more than a few seconds, so being informed of traffic 5 miles away heading in my direction is unlikely to be of interest - by the time it arrives I'll be somewhere else, and I don't know where that will be. This means I need to rely on seeing traffic to avoid it - radio won't help. The mental workload in flying a glider is too high to try to build a mental picture of what is happening outside my field of view, as I'm constantly (every few seconds) revising my course and speed to find the best air to fly in.
Third, I don't have an RT licence - it doesn't come automatically with the glider "licence", unlike powered PPLs/NPPLs - and I can't justify the time to obtain one (effectively following what I believe is an AFIS (correct acronym?) syllabus which is 90% irrelevant to any use I might make). Thus I'm confined to the gliding frequencies and 121.5.
The main reason I frequent this site is to find more about what other users of the same airspace do. One benefit of this thread is that some airspace users now have a little better idea about what gliders do.
If you think this is a frightening gap in the training of glider pilots, just consider for a second the scary gap in IMC training for power that this thread has revealed.
There are a number of pilots who have posted here who previously flew IMC in class G under three erroneous beliefs:
a. Gliders aren't allowed at all;
b. Other aircraft aren't allowed if not transponding;
c. All IMC flight in class G are in receipt of some kind of radar service.
None of these are true. How good was their training?
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You say RIS is useless to ME what about the other poor bugger coming your way at 200kts in IMC? It might be very useful to both of you! Why is it always about the glider? "I don't want to fit a transponder", "I don't have the power for a transponder","Why should I do an RT exam", "An RIS is of no use to me"...etc....
Ok, so what do YOU suggest we do? Carry on as we are ignoring the facts? Fit FLARM? Fit transponders? Ban gliders from IMC? What?
Secondly, RT licences don't come free, we all have to pass the exam. you could do it in half a day if you chose. In fact you could probably rock up at the local flying club and sit the exam, walk straight into the examiner and do the practical. All you would need to do is read the book first.
Ok, so what do YOU suggest we do? Carry on as we are ignoring the facts? Fit FLARM? Fit transponders? Ban gliders from IMC? What?
Secondly, RT licences don't come free, we all have to pass the exam. you could do it in half a day if you chose. In fact you could probably rock up at the local flying club and sit the exam, walk straight into the examiner and do the practical. All you would need to do is read the book first.
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Fuji Abound,
Cloud flying in gliders is comparatively rare. Most of the time a glider makes better progress by staying below cloud base. It tends to be used for three purposes: to cross large gaps where there is no lift (e.g. where a heavy shower has temporarily killed off thermic activity) or possibly to climb over the top of isolated clumps of airspace like Mildenhall/Lakenheath, (more likely) to get home at the end of an XC flight when the cumulus are far apart, or to let down through cloud after climbing in wave. On a five hour flight I'd expect to spend no more than 15 mins or so in cloud, and that on maybe one flight in ten. I think this is pretty typical, but those who actually do fly cloud may be able to add to my examples.
On a good soaring day I'd predict fewer than 100 gliders taking cloud climbs over the whole of the UK, so maybe 1500 minutes of cloud flying in total, but this is based on no more than gut feeling. If there's good, regularly spaced cumulus I'd be surprised if anyone were cloud flying except to practice.
Cloud flying in gliders is comparatively rare. Most of the time a glider makes better progress by staying below cloud base. It tends to be used for three purposes: to cross large gaps where there is no lift (e.g. where a heavy shower has temporarily killed off thermic activity) or possibly to climb over the top of isolated clumps of airspace like Mildenhall/Lakenheath, (more likely) to get home at the end of an XC flight when the cumulus are far apart, or to let down through cloud after climbing in wave. On a five hour flight I'd expect to spend no more than 15 mins or so in cloud, and that on maybe one flight in ten. I think this is pretty typical, but those who actually do fly cloud may be able to add to my examples.
On a good soaring day I'd predict fewer than 100 gliders taking cloud climbs over the whole of the UK, so maybe 1500 minutes of cloud flying in total, but this is based on no more than gut feeling. If there's good, regularly spaced cumulus I'd be surprised if anyone were cloud flying except to practice.
Skycop
You ask what glider pilots are told (pretty basic stuff).
Same as us power pilots:
Aviate, navigate, communicate (in that order).
The difference when I don't have a constant source of guaranteed energy, is that a higher proportion of my time is spent on the first priority. In my case, that is prioritising and minimising risk.
If you are seriously concerned at a minimal risk, occurring in predictable conditions (isolated towering cumulus that you almost certainly don't have to fly through), then listening briefly on a known frequency will reassure you. If you want further reassurance, then investing £400 in a FLARM will guarantee you won't bump into me, and probably not into a growing number, soon a majority, of cross-country glider pilots.
If you want to complain about another sector of the aviation movement, instead of analysing the relative risks (study the accident staistics in your own aviation sector), then carry on, but please don't expect me to respect your logic (or lack of).
You ask what glider pilots are told (pretty basic stuff).
Same as us power pilots:
Aviate, navigate, communicate (in that order).
The difference when I don't have a constant source of guaranteed energy, is that a higher proportion of my time is spent on the first priority. In my case, that is prioritising and minimising risk.
If you are seriously concerned at a minimal risk, occurring in predictable conditions (isolated towering cumulus that you almost certainly don't have to fly through), then listening briefly on a known frequency will reassure you. If you want further reassurance, then investing £400 in a FLARM will guarantee you won't bump into me, and probably not into a growing number, soon a majority, of cross-country glider pilots.
If you want to complain about another sector of the aviation movement, instead of analysing the relative risks (study the accident staistics in your own aviation sector), then carry on, but please don't expect me to respect your logic (or lack of).
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Fitter2, I asked a question. In response, you asked ME a question without answering mine. I assumed you didn't know the answer and told you a solution. I was surprised that you didn't know an answer. But you claim I'm complaining? Why decry out of hand a suggestion that would possibly help all of us keep a little safer?
The R/T exam is NOT inherent in the PPL, the theory has to be learned and there is a practical exam, in a little booth, listening to a tape.
It has already been pointed out that portable electronic equipment such as FLARM cannot be fitted to a public transport IFR aircraft without legal certification, costing very many thousands of pounds.
By the way, I have listened on the glider cloud flying frequency; I made a point of doing so for a while after it was mentioned some time ago, whenever I saw gliders near the cloudbase in good thermal lift conditions and never heard anything. That might have been because no-one in radio range was in cloud, or it might have meant I missed the one call which might have been relevant to my flight. Either way, it didn't reassure me, rather the opposite. Unfortunately I cannot tie up either radio for long because I need to use them for other mandatory purposes, such as gaining ATC clearance to CAS and obtaining ATIS broadcasts and speaking to minor airfields when flying nearby.
Have you or your colleagues ever called an ATC unit when flying a glider, though? I've heard one glider pilot do it recently (on Luton, 129.55, presumably out of Dunstable Downs) and greatly appreciated his good airmanship.
Do you seriously think I've NOT, as a professional pilot, studied relevant accident statistics? Why do you think I'm contributing to this thread? For what it's worth, I was previously the flight safety officer for a government aviation department (a joint fixed wing and rotary wing search and rescue unit but we also flew heads of state and the British Royal Family). The monthly rotary wing safety topic bulletins went out of my office compiled and signed by myself.
The R/T exam is NOT inherent in the PPL, the theory has to be learned and there is a practical exam, in a little booth, listening to a tape.
It has already been pointed out that portable electronic equipment such as FLARM cannot be fitted to a public transport IFR aircraft without legal certification, costing very many thousands of pounds.
By the way, I have listened on the glider cloud flying frequency; I made a point of doing so for a while after it was mentioned some time ago, whenever I saw gliders near the cloudbase in good thermal lift conditions and never heard anything. That might have been because no-one in radio range was in cloud, or it might have meant I missed the one call which might have been relevant to my flight. Either way, it didn't reassure me, rather the opposite. Unfortunately I cannot tie up either radio for long because I need to use them for other mandatory purposes, such as gaining ATC clearance to CAS and obtaining ATIS broadcasts and speaking to minor airfields when flying nearby.
Have you or your colleagues ever called an ATC unit when flying a glider, though? I've heard one glider pilot do it recently (on Luton, 129.55, presumably out of Dunstable Downs) and greatly appreciated his good airmanship.
Do you seriously think I've NOT, as a professional pilot, studied relevant accident statistics? Why do you think I'm contributing to this thread? For what it's worth, I was previously the flight safety officer for a government aviation department (a joint fixed wing and rotary wing search and rescue unit but we also flew heads of state and the British Royal Family). The monthly rotary wing safety topic bulletins went out of my office compiled and signed by myself.
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This thread seems to be deteriorating into glider vs IR traffic
Could I just say that there is no guarantee that any of the powered fraternity, of which I am one, are talking to the same radio service.
Recently I spoke to a CAA safety bod who had told me that when flying between Cornwall and Elstree he was always talking to a radar service.
I do the same from time to time and at weekends I have a choice between London Information or the local airfields, such as Old Sarum or Compton Abbas. So if I am talking to them, and the other guy is talking to London Information, how do we know where anyone is. Similarly, between Elstree and Wycombe who is on what frequency?
This is exactly the same as those of you whinging about glider pilots on their cloud flying frequency whilst you are on an ATC radar service (if you can get one)
Could I just say that there is no guarantee that any of the powered fraternity, of which I am one, are talking to the same radio service.
Recently I spoke to a CAA safety bod who had told me that when flying between Cornwall and Elstree he was always talking to a radar service.
I do the same from time to time and at weekends I have a choice between London Information or the local airfields, such as Old Sarum or Compton Abbas. So if I am talking to them, and the other guy is talking to London Information, how do we know where anyone is. Similarly, between Elstree and Wycombe who is on what frequency?
This is exactly the same as those of you whinging about glider pilots on their cloud flying frequency whilst you are on an ATC radar service (if you can get one)
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It has already been pointed out that portable electronic equipment such as FLARM cannot be fitted to a public transport IFR aircraft without legal certification, costing very many thousands of pounds.
Legal certification of equipment such of Flarm is required to overcome this situation.
I gather that helicopters in Europe are so equipped.
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Pace,
You seem quite concerned about a threat that has never yet happened (that is a glider/power collision in IMC), do you worry about meteor showers as well? More seriously, In real life the amount of traffic in IMC above the TA and OCAS is pretty small, the real collision risks are in circuits, around approaches, in low narrow gaps around controlled airspace and below 1500 feet - (in VMC because that is when there are significant numbers of aircraft in the sky!) and in these circumstances there is nothing in the ANO Instrument Flying Rules that helps with collision avoidance. As a powered pilot, I don't need a transponder, am often talking with someone who couldn't see it anyhow (a FISO or an Approach Controller), and don't have a quadrantal to fly at (being below the TA). Being originally trained oversees, I have always found this regulatory structure uncomfortable, but it is life in the UK -
My experience of RIS is that on a poor day it is easy to get, as you are the only one on the frequency, on a nice day (with isolated cumulus a glider might be in) everyone is looking for a service and the LARS providers are going to struggle with a bunch of gliders making contact for a service (which Isn't going to make the controllers life better or his ability to provide a service to the powered community any more reliable - 'I am gliding at various altitudes and headings depending on how the lift is, not transponder equipped' - doesn't seem to be a very useful radio call - and from a glider's perspective telling ATC he is IMC or VMC doesn't really matter as the stats say he has a chance of being hit VMC but never yet been hit IMC).
You seem quite concerned about a threat that has never yet happened (that is a glider/power collision in IMC), do you worry about meteor showers as well? More seriously, In real life the amount of traffic in IMC above the TA and OCAS is pretty small, the real collision risks are in circuits, around approaches, in low narrow gaps around controlled airspace and below 1500 feet - (in VMC because that is when there are significant numbers of aircraft in the sky!) and in these circumstances there is nothing in the ANO Instrument Flying Rules that helps with collision avoidance. As a powered pilot, I don't need a transponder, am often talking with someone who couldn't see it anyhow (a FISO or an Approach Controller), and don't have a quadrantal to fly at (being below the TA). Being originally trained oversees, I have always found this regulatory structure uncomfortable, but it is life in the UK -
My experience of RIS is that on a poor day it is easy to get, as you are the only one on the frequency, on a nice day (with isolated cumulus a glider might be in) everyone is looking for a service and the LARS providers are going to struggle with a bunch of gliders making contact for a service (which Isn't going to make the controllers life better or his ability to provide a service to the powered community any more reliable - 'I am gliding at various altitudes and headings depending on how the lift is, not transponder equipped' - doesn't seem to be a very useful radio call - and from a glider's perspective telling ATC he is IMC or VMC doesn't really matter as the stats say he has a chance of being hit VMC but never yet been hit IMC).
Last edited by mm_flynn; 2nd Sep 2008 at 21:55.
Skycop
you asked the question:
Ok, so what do YOU suggest we do? Carry on as we are ignoring the facts? Fit FLARM? Fit transponders? Ban gliders from IMC? What?
I answered:
If you are seriously concerned at a minimal risk, occurring in predictable conditions (isolated towering cumulus that you almost certainly don't have to fly through), then listening briefly on a known frequency will reassure you. If you want further reassurance, then investing £400 in a FLARM will guarantee you won't bump into me, and probably not into a growing number, soon a majority, of cross-country glider pilots.
What is the question you claim I asked you - I can't find it in my response.
you asked the question:
Ok, so what do YOU suggest we do? Carry on as we are ignoring the facts? Fit FLARM? Fit transponders? Ban gliders from IMC? What?
I answered:
If you are seriously concerned at a minimal risk, occurring in predictable conditions (isolated towering cumulus that you almost certainly don't have to fly through), then listening briefly on a known frequency will reassure you. If you want further reassurance, then investing £400 in a FLARM will guarantee you won't bump into me, and probably not into a growing number, soon a majority, of cross-country glider pilots.
What is the question you claim I asked you - I can't find it in my response.
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This thread seems to be deteriorating into glider vs IR traffic
Robin, Aircraft able to see and avoid under VFR and in VMC isn't really the same situation at all.
In IMC "see" obviously cannot apply and there lies a problem. Pilots of powered aircraft must give way to gliders but if gliders can't be seen because they are in IMC (and according to Prof Chris Reed above, unable to think further than they can see), how can this be done? We all need a mutually compatible system to ensure separation.
If public opinion is swayed because of an accident (and the usual media frenzy), it will undoubtedly mean less freedom for aviation in Class G.
Fitter2,
Skycop
you asked the question:
Ok, so what do YOU suggest we do? Carry on as we are ignoring the facts? Fit FLARM? Fit transponders? Ban gliders from IMC? What?
you asked the question:
Ok, so what do YOU suggest we do? Carry on as we are ignoring the facts? Fit FLARM? Fit transponders? Ban gliders from IMC? What?
Last edited by Skycop; 2nd Sep 2008 at 22:06.
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Hi Englishal, re:
"My advice to a cloud flying glider would be at a minimum to dial into the nearest LARS controller and ask for a RIS or report your position using a FIS. That way GA traffic with the same controller has a cat-in-hells chance of avoiding you and you the GA traffic. If the worst ever happens - a glider hits an airbus - you can bet that things will change for the worse for everyone"
Ok, so let's try a few FICTIONAL scenarios to see how they work using your suggestion (NB: The calls may not be exactly right and I'm not inferring anything about the level of service provided by the units mentioned:
(A) Non-radio equipped glider - can't call anybody (shouldn't be in cloud anyway but may be operating in IMC conditions).
(B) Glider with radio limited to gliding frequencies - can't call any non-gliding frequencies
(C) Glider with handheld radio (720ch + pilot with an RT licence), in VMC. Here's the scene:
Glider: "Wycombe good afternoon, Glider 123"
Wycombe "Glider 123 pass your message"
Glider "Glider 123 is a standard class glider operating to the West of your ATZ requesting Radar Information
Wycombe: "We're not radar equipped, can only provide flight information. Report your position and intention"
Glider: "Roger, understood. Glider 123 will be routing between Wycombe and Kidlington"
Wycombe: "Glider 123 confirm intended height and heading"
Glider: "Glider 123 will be operating between 500' AGL and base of the London TMA and will be routing somewhere over Oxfordshire"
Wycombe: "Roger Glider 123, no known traffic"
Glider: "Wycombe are you in contact with the Cessna, Pitts Special, Extra, Piper Cub or microlight that I can see in the area?"
Wycome: "Negative"
Glider: "Roger, be advised I can also see a further ten gliders in the area"
The point here is that there could be lots of other traffic, all using different frequencies (Wycombe, Kidlington, Benson, Halton, White Waltham and others all being valid contenders)
(D) Glider with handheld radio (720ch + pilot with an RT licence), in IMC. Here's the scene:
Glider: "Benson Radar, Glider 123"
Benson: ........ (it's Saturday, so there's no answer)
Glider: "Farnborough Radar, Glider 123"
Farnborough West: "Glider 123, pass your message"
Glider "Glider 123 is a standard class glider operating in IMC between Wycombe and Kidlington requesting Radar Information"
Farnborough West: "Glider 123, squawk 1234"
Glider: "Glider 123 isn't transponder equipped. Only power is in my handheld radio"
Farnborough West: "Glider 123, Can you accept a radar heading for identification?"
Glider: "Glider 123, negative, currently climbing in a thermal in a cloud"
Farnborough West: "Glider 123, Can provide Flight Information only"
Glider: "Roger that, can you confirm that you're co-ordinating all IMC traffic around the Benson area?"
Farnborough West: "Negative, only the ones talking to us."
Point here is that IMC traffic could be liaising with Kidlington, Benson (on UHF), Brize Radar or Farnborough West.
Hopefully Englishal this'll help to explain why there's a reluctance for gliders to call ATZ's in VMC or LARS in IMC.
"My advice to a cloud flying glider would be at a minimum to dial into the nearest LARS controller and ask for a RIS or report your position using a FIS. That way GA traffic with the same controller has a cat-in-hells chance of avoiding you and you the GA traffic. If the worst ever happens - a glider hits an airbus - you can bet that things will change for the worse for everyone"
Ok, so let's try a few FICTIONAL scenarios to see how they work using your suggestion (NB: The calls may not be exactly right and I'm not inferring anything about the level of service provided by the units mentioned:
(A) Non-radio equipped glider - can't call anybody (shouldn't be in cloud anyway but may be operating in IMC conditions).
(B) Glider with radio limited to gliding frequencies - can't call any non-gliding frequencies
(C) Glider with handheld radio (720ch + pilot with an RT licence), in VMC. Here's the scene:
Glider: "Wycombe good afternoon, Glider 123"
Wycombe "Glider 123 pass your message"
Glider "Glider 123 is a standard class glider operating to the West of your ATZ requesting Radar Information
Wycombe: "We're not radar equipped, can only provide flight information. Report your position and intention"
Glider: "Roger, understood. Glider 123 will be routing between Wycombe and Kidlington"
Wycombe: "Glider 123 confirm intended height and heading"
Glider: "Glider 123 will be operating between 500' AGL and base of the London TMA and will be routing somewhere over Oxfordshire"
Wycombe: "Roger Glider 123, no known traffic"
Glider: "Wycombe are you in contact with the Cessna, Pitts Special, Extra, Piper Cub or microlight that I can see in the area?"
Wycome: "Negative"
Glider: "Roger, be advised I can also see a further ten gliders in the area"
The point here is that there could be lots of other traffic, all using different frequencies (Wycombe, Kidlington, Benson, Halton, White Waltham and others all being valid contenders)
(D) Glider with handheld radio (720ch + pilot with an RT licence), in IMC. Here's the scene:
Glider: "Benson Radar, Glider 123"
Benson: ........ (it's Saturday, so there's no answer)
Glider: "Farnborough Radar, Glider 123"
Farnborough West: "Glider 123, pass your message"
Glider "Glider 123 is a standard class glider operating in IMC between Wycombe and Kidlington requesting Radar Information"
Farnborough West: "Glider 123, squawk 1234"
Glider: "Glider 123 isn't transponder equipped. Only power is in my handheld radio"
Farnborough West: "Glider 123, Can you accept a radar heading for identification?"
Glider: "Glider 123, negative, currently climbing in a thermal in a cloud"
Farnborough West: "Glider 123, Can provide Flight Information only"
Glider: "Roger that, can you confirm that you're co-ordinating all IMC traffic around the Benson area?"
Farnborough West: "Negative, only the ones talking to us."
Point here is that IMC traffic could be liaising with Kidlington, Benson (on UHF), Brize Radar or Farnborough West.
Hopefully Englishal this'll help to explain why there's a reluctance for gliders to call ATZ's in VMC or LARS in IMC.
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Skycop
And this is the problem. There is an implicit assumption that the light aircraft or glider is automatically at fault. The CAA have used this argument in many meetings with GA reps regarding fitting and using Mode S. Yet there are certainly incidents between commercial jets in the airways not involving light aircraft, so technology is not foolproof, is it?
If public opinion is swayed because of an accident (and the usual media frenzy), it will undoubtedly mean less freedom for aviation in Class G.
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Skycop, it would be nice not to be quoted out of context - I was clearly referring to VMC flying.
You say we need a system to prevent IMC collisions. The only system which would prevent collisions is no IMC flying. Everything else is risk reduction. Transponders don't always work, radar services are not infallible and not always available.
We seem to have moved from compulsory transponders, at the beginning of this thread, to use of radio at this end. As radio is compulsory for gliders flying in cloud, though not, I think for powered aircraft (is that correct anyone?), but non-radio power is unlikely to fly IMC, this seems a promising starting point.
It's already established that power pilots are not reassured by monitoring the gliding frequency (130.4). Glider pilots don't know which ATC unit to call, and some power pilots think it unlikely that picking one of the local units is much use.
The logical conclusion is a common frequency for all class G IMC flying, with position reporting in an agreed, consistent manner at minimum time intervals. This might be by distance/bearing from a substantial town marked on the 1/2 mil map, or by GPS coordinates, plus altitude in each case. Safetycom might be a good candidate for this.
It seems to me that this would place a fairly light burden on all IMC fliers, and require minimal regulatory changes.
Comments?
You say we need a system to prevent IMC collisions. The only system which would prevent collisions is no IMC flying. Everything else is risk reduction. Transponders don't always work, radar services are not infallible and not always available.
We seem to have moved from compulsory transponders, at the beginning of this thread, to use of radio at this end. As radio is compulsory for gliders flying in cloud, though not, I think for powered aircraft (is that correct anyone?), but non-radio power is unlikely to fly IMC, this seems a promising starting point.
It's already established that power pilots are not reassured by monitoring the gliding frequency (130.4). Glider pilots don't know which ATC unit to call, and some power pilots think it unlikely that picking one of the local units is much use.
The logical conclusion is a common frequency for all class G IMC flying, with position reporting in an agreed, consistent manner at minimum time intervals. This might be by distance/bearing from a substantial town marked on the 1/2 mil map, or by GPS coordinates, plus altitude in each case. Safetycom might be a good candidate for this.
It seems to me that this would place a fairly light burden on all IMC fliers, and require minimal regulatory changes.
Comments?
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Robin 400,
Not so. The aircraft I fly has TCAS, in addition to full IFR equipment which allows me to use an ATC Radar service.
I obtain a RIS, ATC ask me to squawk and identify me and then warn me of other radar contacts. Unfortunately, gliders do not show well on radar and at least judging by the comments on this thread their pilots do not generally wish to participate in the established LARS system.
Some are trying to say there is little or no risk of a collision with a glider in IMC, but you agree with me that there is a definite risk.
However, a glider in IMC has no means of protecting its occupants from risk of collision apart from the 5% of gliders carrying FLARM.
My only point is that a glider pilot could easily also obtain some protection from a mid-air collision (and give it to others) via ATC with a simple radio call, in addition to a reliance on FLARM. Other pilots, hence suitably warned by ATC, have a choice of taking the risk in cloud, or not.
I have no other axe to grind and will now leave you to it.
You obviously fly a very expensive and sophisticated helicopter that has no means of protecting you and your passengers from risk of collision.
I obtain a RIS, ATC ask me to squawk and identify me and then warn me of other radar contacts. Unfortunately, gliders do not show well on radar and at least judging by the comments on this thread their pilots do not generally wish to participate in the established LARS system.
Some are trying to say there is little or no risk of a collision with a glider in IMC, but you agree with me that there is a definite risk.
However, a glider in IMC has no means of protecting its occupants from risk of collision apart from the 5% of gliders carrying FLARM.
My only point is that a glider pilot could easily also obtain some protection from a mid-air collision (and give it to others) via ATC with a simple radio call, in addition to a reliance on FLARM. Other pilots, hence suitably warned by ATC, have a choice of taking the risk in cloud, or not.
I have no other axe to grind and will now leave you to it.
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I obtain a RIS, ATC ask me to squawk and identify me and then warn me of other radar contacts.
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ProfChrisReed, I'm sure you were referring to VMC flight but how is your lookout in IMC? How do you give accurate position reports when you can't see the ground and does your situational awareness get better or worse?
Unfortunately, your suggestion for a common frequency for all GA too is flawed simply because I think you underestimate the number of IMC aircraft in Class G. I'm sure it would be chaos and achieve little purpose because everyone would hear transmissions from the opposite end of the country. Try listening to 122.7 at Sywell or Compton Abbas - allocation of the same local frequency causes aircraft operating at those two airfields to hear circuit calls from those at the other, 100 nms away. The R/T would be full of crossed and missed transmissions. In addition, IFR/IMC GA is most often going somewhere in CAS, and most often requires a mandatory ATC clearance in order to do so. ATC must be communicated with, even in Class G.
The risk of IMC mid-air collision has long been considered by GA. Many companies require their aircraft to obtain an ATC service using ground-based radar whenever possible.
Unfortunately, your suggestion for a common frequency for all GA too is flawed simply because I think you underestimate the number of IMC aircraft in Class G. I'm sure it would be chaos and achieve little purpose because everyone would hear transmissions from the opposite end of the country. Try listening to 122.7 at Sywell or Compton Abbas - allocation of the same local frequency causes aircraft operating at those two airfields to hear circuit calls from those at the other, 100 nms away. The R/T would be full of crossed and missed transmissions. In addition, IFR/IMC GA is most often going somewhere in CAS, and most often requires a mandatory ATC clearance in order to do so. ATC must be communicated with, even in Class G.
The risk of IMC mid-air collision has long been considered by GA. Many companies require their aircraft to obtain an ATC service using ground-based radar whenever possible.
FLARM can work with transponders
I e mailed the question to the factory as to whether Flarm could work with Transponder equiped aeroplanes.
here is their answer;
so, looks like a common system is here already
anyone for FLARM as an add on to their Transponder?
here is their answer;
It is off course possible to combine FLARM and an transponder receiver, but PCAS (transponder receivers) have such a poor performance in busy airspace (where FLARM is most often used) that we are not sure if this is really desirable…
anyone for FLARM as an add on to their Transponder?
ProfChrisReed sensibly suggests a common frequency for all IMC traffic in class G. Skycop explains why that won't work but fails to come up with an aternative other than calling one of a number of several radar service providers who have no responsibility for conflict avoidance and I am informed by people who should know, do not have the resource to deal with a substantial number of gliders who may wish to use IMC - calling once one is in IMC, and using the common gliding IMC frequency for good practical safety reasons is demonstrably impracticable.
It is claimed that 'gliders do not show up well on radar' with no evidence - I am assured they do on primary radar, but secondary radar is what is commonly used by radar services, and being non-transponder equipped they naturally do not.
It is claimed that IFR certified aircraft may not fit FLARM, in spite of a posting earlier in the thread illustrating an IFR equipped (police) helcopter certified under EASA (presumably the same rules that will apply in UK) fitted with FLARM.
It is claimed to be 'madness' for glider pilots to operate in their normal current mode, in spite of the fact that many of them also hold ATPLs and are current in CAT.
We can hold a useful and constructive discussion fact based, or rely on our prejudices for a possibly more entertaining one. Preference?
It is claimed that 'gliders do not show up well on radar' with no evidence - I am assured they do on primary radar, but secondary radar is what is commonly used by radar services, and being non-transponder equipped they naturally do not.
It is claimed that IFR certified aircraft may not fit FLARM, in spite of a posting earlier in the thread illustrating an IFR equipped (police) helcopter certified under EASA (presumably the same rules that will apply in UK) fitted with FLARM.
It is claimed to be 'madness' for glider pilots to operate in their normal current mode, in spite of the fact that many of them also hold ATPLs and are current in CAT.
We can hold a useful and constructive discussion fact based, or rely on our prejudices for a possibly more entertaining one. Preference?
Last edited by Fitter2; 3rd Sep 2008 at 06:22.
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ProfChrisReed sensibly suggests a common frequency for all IMC traffic in class G.
Skycop explains why that won't work but fails to come up with an aternative other than calling one of a number of several radar service providers
Seems to me that this thread has degenerated from selfishness to wilful misunderstanding. Perhaps if some of you actually tried to read and understand others posts, you might learn something instead of the incredibly blinkered views I am reading here.
It has been mentioned that facts are required. Yes, they are. I have read, on this page alone, that there are substantial numbers of gliders in cloud and yet, there are rarely gliders in cloud. Well? A lot of glider pilots do not hold a radio licence yet many of them hold ATPLs?
Honestly, some of you ..... when I read stuff here, I am concerned that I am sharing airspace with some!
Cheers
Whirls
thread creep
Was the thread " improve light A/C Separation" or "glider bashing?"
Glider pilots do fly in a way that is different from many other airspace users. They know that use of radio, radar and ATC cannot give protection with the huge numbers of fliers on a good day, frequently over 500 possibly 750 during the peak 5 hours within 50 nm of Oxford. Glider pilots minimise the amount of time they are heads down in the cockpit tuning radios that will serve only as a distraction and maximise their time with eyes looking outside. As gpn01 points out there are dozens of controllers to talk to within 50 nm of Oxford but none have the whole picture and most have no radar, but still expect to be called!
So, back to the theme of how to improve light A/C Separation,
Bad bears top tip;
Forget talking on radios. Look out the window and scan the sky slowly and often. Look to see if someone is there, not look to see if it is clear
bb