Trimming, Landing & Instructors - HELP!!!
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An a/c will not "float" unless it has a speed well in excess of the stall speed, this is often called "flying", if the speed is Vs +0 on touchdown (touchdown is the bit where the wheels are in contact with the planet) this planetary contact will initiate a phenomenon called deceleration, now, as 0 knots of deceleration are required to reach Vs it won't take very long. Once Vs is reached the aircraft is refered to as landed (no flight is happening). If further flight is required (a go-around) speed must be added, this requires (glider pilots please look away now) more throttle / power. The average 152 will climb very nicely at 60 knots, therefore if it is on the ground at 60 knots & you apply back pressure to the yoke in order to keep the nose wheel from doing the wibbly wobbly thing the aeroplane will climb, but, & this is a big BUT, if you (glider pilots can look now) do not add power immediately the aircraft will do the decelerate thing several feet up in the air until it reaches Vs, at which point it will fall down at the rate of 32fps. This has been known to hurt.
Now, If you have spent a year & a small fortune at your flying "school" but haven't learned that, then yes, you have learned absolutely nothing, & I suggest you ask for your money back.
I am deliberately being flippant because it seems you deserve it.
I believe you are arrogant because you will not accept the advice of people who were teaching flying while you were wetting your nappies, & in fact you are trying to tell these people they are somehow wrong.
Now, if that is not a reasonable description of arrogant then please point me at a better one.
Now, If you have spent a year & a small fortune at your flying "school" but haven't learned that, then yes, you have learned absolutely nothing, & I suggest you ask for your money back.
I am deliberately being flippant because it seems you deserve it.
I believe you are arrogant because you will not accept the advice of people who were teaching flying while you were wetting your nappies, & in fact you are trying to tell these people they are somehow wrong.
Now, if that is not a reasonable description of arrogant then please point me at a better one.
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David, please stop talking (well typing) and start listening (well reading).
Last edited by DavidHoul52; 18th Sep 2008 at 00:19.
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I believe you are arrogant because you will not accept the advice of people who were teaching flying while you were wetting your nappies, & in fact you are trying to tell these people they are somehow wrong.
Now, if that is not a reasonable description of arrogant then please point me at a better one.
Now, if that is not a reasonable description of arrogant then please point me at a better one.
All this talk about re-training is laughable - I don't think I am the one who is being arrogant - do you?
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An a/c will not "float" unless it has a speed well in excess of the stall speed, this is often called "flying", if the speed is Vs +0 on touchdown (touchdown is the bit where the wheels are in contact with the planet) this planetary contact will initiate a phenomenon called deceleration, now, as 0 knots of deceleration are required to reach Vs it won't take very long. Once Vs is reached the aircraft is refered to as landed (no flight is happening). If further flight is required (a go-around) speed must be added, this requires (glider pilots please look away now) more throttle / power. The average 152 will climb very nicely at 60 knots, therefore if it is on the ground at 60 knots & you apply back pressure to the yoke in order to keep the nose wheel from doing the wibbly wobbly thing the aeroplane will climb, but, & this is a big BUT, if you (glider pilots can look now) do not add power immediately the aircraft will do the decelerate thing several feet up in the air until it reaches Vs, at which point it will fall down at the rate of 32fps. This has been known to hurt.
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David,
I've got to wonder if perhaps your instructor is a skilled aviatrix and instructor, who taught you well and completely, but to no avail.
You went into the flying school having selectivly read all passages of books, magazines and accident reports which supported your early beliefs about the physics of flight. Despite her most heroic efforts, she just could not convince you otherwise. But, was just too much a lady to tell the truth about your unwillingness to consider informed assistance, and death grip on errant ideas about aviation.
Your advancement in aviation will work out best for you by your buying your own aircraft, because I really struggle to see you convincing anyone else that you have what it takes to fly theirs safely. If someone else who carefully considers the skill set of piloting you have presented here, lets you loose in their plane, trust me, they're also trying to not hurt your feelings by telling you to get more training. They'll turn their back on you as you taxi away, so as not to witness what will become of their aircraft in your hands.
If you tally up the total piloting hours of experience of the posters here, who are all telling you exactly the same thing, it sounds like you'd get a number pushing 50,000. Why on earth would you think to argue with that?
So, we've had a blast here, and a few good laughs at your expense. We, to your exclusion, have bonded a little more with each other, and that really is why we spent the time typing. We're really not thinking that we will actually be in the seat beside you, or that you'll ever fly our families around, so the true personal investment for the rest of us in you is pretty low!
Also remind yourself that being the recipient of another's wisdom is a privilage. We give or withold it at our sole discretion. You are not the first to present your "fully qualified" wisdom here, and you won't be the last. I suspect a few of the others who spouted "fully qualified" wisdom here have probably signed up again with a different name, because of the shame they caused themselves in their first incarnation! It would appear to me, that although I did offer you the opportunity for some experience (an offer which stands), others apparently have told you to stay away from them - that's gotta hurt!
25 years ago, I probably made a fool of myself (okay, more recently too) and a very senior and respected pilot called me a "Sunday pilot". I made it my goal to live that down. Thousands of hours, hundreds of different planes, and dozens of Transport Canada flight test programs later, the end of my deserving to be called a "Sunday pilot" may be nearing (they do let me fly all seven days if I want).
David, aircraft manufacturers, modifiers and pilots pay a lot for my opinion on their aircraft. Cessna buys products from my company, which I developed and own. and you won't listen for free! When someone refers to you as a Sunday pilot, celebrate, you're on your way up!
Pilot DAR
I've got to wonder if perhaps your instructor is a skilled aviatrix and instructor, who taught you well and completely, but to no avail.
You went into the flying school having selectivly read all passages of books, magazines and accident reports which supported your early beliefs about the physics of flight. Despite her most heroic efforts, she just could not convince you otherwise. But, was just too much a lady to tell the truth about your unwillingness to consider informed assistance, and death grip on errant ideas about aviation.
Your advancement in aviation will work out best for you by your buying your own aircraft, because I really struggle to see you convincing anyone else that you have what it takes to fly theirs safely. If someone else who carefully considers the skill set of piloting you have presented here, lets you loose in their plane, trust me, they're also trying to not hurt your feelings by telling you to get more training. They'll turn their back on you as you taxi away, so as not to witness what will become of their aircraft in your hands.
If you tally up the total piloting hours of experience of the posters here, who are all telling you exactly the same thing, it sounds like you'd get a number pushing 50,000. Why on earth would you think to argue with that?
So, we've had a blast here, and a few good laughs at your expense. We, to your exclusion, have bonded a little more with each other, and that really is why we spent the time typing. We're really not thinking that we will actually be in the seat beside you, or that you'll ever fly our families around, so the true personal investment for the rest of us in you is pretty low!
Also remind yourself that being the recipient of another's wisdom is a privilage. We give or withold it at our sole discretion. You are not the first to present your "fully qualified" wisdom here, and you won't be the last. I suspect a few of the others who spouted "fully qualified" wisdom here have probably signed up again with a different name, because of the shame they caused themselves in their first incarnation! It would appear to me, that although I did offer you the opportunity for some experience (an offer which stands), others apparently have told you to stay away from them - that's gotta hurt!
25 years ago, I probably made a fool of myself (okay, more recently too) and a very senior and respected pilot called me a "Sunday pilot". I made it my goal to live that down. Thousands of hours, hundreds of different planes, and dozens of Transport Canada flight test programs later, the end of my deserving to be called a "Sunday pilot" may be nearing (they do let me fly all seven days if I want).
David, aircraft manufacturers, modifiers and pilots pay a lot for my opinion on their aircraft. Cessna buys products from my company, which I developed and own. and you won't listen for free! When someone refers to you as a Sunday pilot, celebrate, you're on your way up!
Pilot DAR
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Basing my flying techniques on the advice of unknown posters on an internet forum would be very foolish indeed.
David.....take a deep breath and think for a moment about what you are typing.
I am not an unknown poster on an internet forum, I use my real name and I have been teaching pilots how to fly for over fifty years......it is my opinion based on what you have typed here that you are either a windup artist, an idiot, or someone who is badly in need of proper flight training.
David.....take a deep breath and think for a moment about what you are typing.
I am not an unknown poster on an internet forum, I use my real name and I have been teaching pilots how to fly for over fifty years......it is my opinion based on what you have typed here that you are either a windup artist, an idiot, or someone who is badly in need of proper flight training.
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Chuck - I appreciated your posts. This has nothing to do with my actual performance as a pilot (good or bad) believe me. I was not trying to wind everyone up. It was just a small point which I still believe as valid but I think has been misrepresented out of all proportion. I'm sure if you were in the right hand seat you would be more than satisfied with the standard of my landings given my limited experience!
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One thing to mention. A few times you make reference to the examiner being happy with what you have done. Well, many of us on here are also examiners as well as FI's.
Your comments on stall warners and landing attitudes are just one example
Touching down at 65 kts in a 152.................Nice way of destroying the nosewheel.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Not sure where to start with this one. Could you point me in the direction of a recent report where someone fell out of the sky on approach because they stalled just before touch down?
Taxiing in strong winds can be dangerous. I've landed perfectly safely in conditions where we had to sit for a fair while until conditions improved enough to allow us to taxi safely or even open the doors. (Admittedly this was in aircraft slightly larger than a 152 and in conditions far beyond what most light aircraft could handle)
Nay, nay and thrice nay.
Yet you later post that the advice (which I think is utter b*lls by the way) is that it is due to engine response that closing the throttle completely is frowned upon by Mr Cessna. What's that got to do with a "lack of control on the hold off."
Situational awareness encompasses many things. It has little in reality to do with actually flying. For many of us, the flying is virtually automatic and situational awareness is about everything going on around us, from other traffic on the radio, navigation, ATC, what's likely to come up next, how the a/c is behaving etc.etc.
It is not just about handling the aircraft.
Why not? You should have been shown this on numerous occasions throughout your training. Whether you are a newly minted PPL or not you should have a good understanding of what your aircraft is actually capable of.
No it doesn't, but it doesn't half help. Landing is about energy management. Why touchdown with lots of energy that then has to be dissapated throughout the weak braking system and by putting extra force on the nose oleo and main springs?
I can't be bothered to delve any further, but how about you answer some of the questions that have been put to you along the way?
None of us give two hoots about how good your landings are. I'm sure on a nice day with a long tarmac strip in front of you, they are fine. What I and everyone else is finding so frustrating is your attitude. That is what makes or breaks us as pilots.
I like to think I'm alright as a handling pilot. I can get aircraft to do what I want most of the time. Thing is, there are many out there who's handling skills are better than mine. Even some of the students I've taught. (not many I hasten to add!!!) but the difference between me and a student is what goes on between the ears. I know when to quit or when not to go. My yellow streak has taken years of cultivation and is now quite impressive.
Experienced flight instructors are more interested in what you are thinking than what you are doing.
Of course you have to reach a good standard of flying ability, but there is so much more to flying than that.
Pilot DAR
Your comments on stall warners and landing attitudes are just one example
I agree with my instructor (a far better instructor than some I've been with who insist on stupid rules and flying by numbers)- you need a firm landing in strong wind conditions. A gentle landing is not necessarily a good one. Agreed the main wheels should land before the nose wheel but that is possible at 65 -70 kts (in a Cessna) - you don't have to be at stall speed.
We are going to have to agree to disagree on this! You have no basis whatsoever for making an absolute categorical statement on this. An aircraft is NOT SAFE when it is just above the ground at near stalling speed and there are strong gusts of wind about.
I prefer to make a flapless landing at 70kts if there are strong gusts and touch down as soon and as fast as I can (not above 70kts obviously). If I get blown off the runway I have the option of putting on full power and going around. If I am just about stalling speed with the nose high do I really have that option? Every month we have numerous AAIB accident reports about mishaps due to lack of control just before touch down (fortunately mostly minor)
I also don't see that control after touch down is such a problem. Wheels are on the ground - keep straight with rudder, keep from blowing over with aerilons if needed. Use brakes. If the wind blows you off once you are on the ground then surely you are way outside limits? (Hurricane Ike?)
If the aircraft can be controlled at stalling speed why do we try so hard avoiding just that? (The pilots who were not successful at controlling at stalling speed are sadly no longer with us)
I also don't see that control after touch down is such a problem. Wheels are on the ground - keep straight with rudder, keep from blowing over with aerilons if needed. Use brakes. If the wind blows you off once you are on the ground then surely you are way outside limits? (Hurricane Ike?)
If the aircraft can be controlled at stalling speed why do we try so hard avoiding just that? (The pilots who were not successful at controlling at stalling speed are sadly no longer with us)
Taxiing in strong winds can be dangerous. I've landed perfectly safely in conditions where we had to sit for a fair while until conditions improved enough to allow us to taxi safely or even open the doors. (Admittedly this was in aircraft slightly larger than a 152 and in conditions far beyond what most light aircraft could handle)
So rotating at 65 knots is dangerous?
Quote:
bouncing and sliding over the ground headed for the runway edge and whatever lies beyond it...
Doesn't happen on a hard runway.
I've read oodles of accident reports and never of report of this happening to anyone. There is in any case a safety margin at the side of the runway. That will soon stop you.
Quote:
bouncing and sliding over the ground headed for the runway edge and whatever lies beyond it...
Doesn't happen on a hard runway.
I've read oodles of accident reports and never of report of this happening to anyone. There is in any case a safety margin at the side of the runway. That will soon stop you.
Nay, nay and thrice nay.
Two more spanners to add to the works - one - flapless landings are flatter than full flap landings and two - I have not tried this but Cessna have recommended that for their 150/152 series that pilots do not close the throttle completely after the flare - this because of accidents due to lack of control on the hold off.
You missed my point entirely. Every pilot has to use their judgement TAKING INTO ACCOUNT THE SITUATION no matter what experience they have. It's called "situational awareness" I believe.
It is not just about handling the aircraft.
Quote:
many aircraft have a lot of control even deep within the stall.
I don't think I'll try it if you don't mind! Just the thing a new PPL needs to hear.
many aircraft have a lot of control even deep within the stall.
I don't think I'll try it if you don't mind! Just the thing a new PPL needs to hear.
Quote:
When you experience that shimmy, you will imediately begin to worry that you will actually loose the oleo before you get the plane stopped. If the nose had been held off longer, and then held light during the rest of the rollout, the chance of a shiimy are greatly reduced, and should it happen, the effect not damaging.
Yes I know about this and I appreciate that it's not possible to land nose wheel up above a certain speed. But surely it doesn't need to be so slow and nose high that the stall warner sounds?
When you experience that shimmy, you will imediately begin to worry that you will actually loose the oleo before you get the plane stopped. If the nose had been held off longer, and then held light during the rest of the rollout, the chance of a shiimy are greatly reduced, and should it happen, the effect not damaging.
Yes I know about this and I appreciate that it's not possible to land nose wheel up above a certain speed. But surely it doesn't need to be so slow and nose high that the stall warner sounds?
I can't be bothered to delve any further, but how about you answer some of the questions that have been put to you along the way?
None of us give two hoots about how good your landings are. I'm sure on a nice day with a long tarmac strip in front of you, they are fine. What I and everyone else is finding so frustrating is your attitude. That is what makes or breaks us as pilots.
I like to think I'm alright as a handling pilot. I can get aircraft to do what I want most of the time. Thing is, there are many out there who's handling skills are better than mine. Even some of the students I've taught. (not many I hasten to add!!!) but the difference between me and a student is what goes on between the ears. I know when to quit or when not to go. My yellow streak has taken years of cultivation and is now quite impressive.
Experienced flight instructors are more interested in what you are thinking than what you are doing.
Of course you have to reach a good standard of flying ability, but there is so much more to flying than that.
Pilot DAR
Last edited by Say again s l o w l y; 18th Sep 2008 at 01:00.
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Yeah,
It is great of Chuck to use his real name. I honestly thought you were not supposed to do that, for some internet reason I did not understand. Many people here know who I am through PM's and most are welcomed. Some will have to earn the "privilage" of an introduction...
Don't worry David, I know enough about aviation, that I know I'm not steering you wrong. Need some reassurance? The aircraft pictured here: Lake Central Air Services - Lake Aircraft; Services Available are a few of my flight test projects. They're all safely back on the ground.
Pilot DAR
It is great of Chuck to use his real name. I honestly thought you were not supposed to do that, for some internet reason I did not understand. Many people here know who I am through PM's and most are welcomed. Some will have to earn the "privilage" of an introduction...
Don't worry David, I know enough about aviation, that I know I'm not steering you wrong. Need some reassurance? The aircraft pictured here: Lake Central Air Services - Lake Aircraft; Services Available are a few of my flight test projects. They're all safely back on the ground.
Pilot DAR
Moderator
Yeah, but the ones which are the most fun with my work there are these: Thurston Teal Amphibian The boss is not so keen on them, so he doesn't post photos of them as much.
Moderator
I test flew this one http://www.lakecentral.com/images/cessna_boom.jpg in Yellowknife, Northwest Territories. Transport Canada insisted that I spin it many times, and dive it to 110% of Vne several times. Not as fun as it sounds, when you have 750 pounds of bagged gravel tied down behind you. I lost a paddle out there somewhere....
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It is great of Chuck to use his real name. I honestly thought you were not supposed to do that, for some internet reason I did not understand.
I have never had any reason not to use my real name on these forums.
One thing for sure it makes one be very careful of what one posts.
And I seldom have pilots jump all over my advice and claim it is useless.
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Most of your questions don't seem to be questions but I'll try my best
Main wheels at 65 kts. No nosewheels damaged at our flying school as long as I've been there.
I didn't say that.
My point was that if the plane should not be on the runway at 65 kts why do we use that speed to rotate?
I think a lot of this discussion is about differences of technique between grass and concrete/tarmac runways.
Ignore this one. The report seems to contradict itself.
So are you saying landings are always the same - not matter wind strength, wind direction, condition of runway, and that one should always use the same landing technique no matter what? (If your answer to that question is "no" then maybe I am not so wrong after all?)
Stalling at 50 feet wouldn't be that much fun.
An aircraft is designed to cope with normal landings. The Cessna 152 POH does not prescribe landing with the stall warner going off - so it is not a normal landing. It states merely that it is necessary that the main wheels land first. (Goodness how many more times do we have to go through this)
Have some humility and please think this through!
Touching down at 65 kts in a 152.................Nice way of destroying the nosewheel.
Could you point me in the direction of a recent report where someone fell out of the sky on approach because they stalled just before touch down?
So rotating at 65 knots is dangerous?
Quote:
bouncing and sliding over the ground headed for the runway edge and whatever lies beyond it...
Doesn't happen on a hard runway.
bouncing and sliding over the ground headed for the runway edge and whatever lies beyond it...
Doesn't happen on a hard runway.
Quote:
Two more spanners to add to the works - one - flapless landings are flatter than full flap landings and two - I have not tried this but Cessna have recommended that for their 150/152 series that pilots do not close the throttle completely after the flare - this because of accidents due to lack of control on the hold off.
Yet you later post that the advice (which I think is utter b*lls by the way) is that it is due to engine response that closing the throttle completely is frowned upon by Mr Cessna. What's that got to do with a "lack of control on the hold off."
Two more spanners to add to the works - one - flapless landings are flatter than full flap landings and two - I have not tried this but Cessna have recommended that for their 150/152 series that pilots do not close the throttle completely after the flare - this because of accidents due to lack of control on the hold off.
Yet you later post that the advice (which I think is utter b*lls by the way) is that it is due to engine response that closing the throttle completely is frowned upon by Mr Cessna. What's that got to do with a "lack of control on the hold off."
Quote:
You missed my point entirely. Every pilot has to use their judgement TAKING INTO ACCOUNT THE SITUATION no matter what experience they have. It's called "situational awareness" I believe.
Situational awareness encompasses many things. It has little in reality to do with actually flying. For many of us, the flying is virtually automatic and situational awareness is about everything going on around us, from other traffic on the radio, navigation, ATC, what's likely to come up next, how the a/c is behaving etc.etc.
It is not just about handling the aircraft.
You missed my point entirely. Every pilot has to use their judgement TAKING INTO ACCOUNT THE SITUATION no matter what experience they have. It's called "situational awareness" I believe.
Situational awareness encompasses many things. It has little in reality to do with actually flying. For many of us, the flying is virtually automatic and situational awareness is about everything going on around us, from other traffic on the radio, navigation, ATC, what's likely to come up next, how the a/c is behaving etc.etc.
It is not just about handling the aircraft.
many aircraft have a lot of control even deep within the stall.
I don't think I'll try it if you don't mind! Just the thing a new PPL needs to hear.
I don't think I'll try it if you don't mind! Just the thing a new PPL needs to hear.
No it doesn't, but it doesn't half help. Landing is about energy management. Why touchdown with lots of energy that then has to be dissapated throughout the weak braking system and by putting extra force on the nose oleo and main springs?
Have some humility and please think this through!
Moderator
Chuck,
The time will hopefully come where I am deserving of credit, which can be measured on the same scale as that upon which your experience is measured. You will have no problem identifying me should the need ever arise.
In the mean time, I always post as though I'm wearing "Pilot DAR" on a name tag at a PPRuNe bash. Hopefully more people will shake my hand than their fist at me!
Pilot DAR
The time will hopefully come where I am deserving of credit, which can be measured on the same scale as that upon which your experience is measured. You will have no problem identifying me should the need ever arise.
In the mean time, I always post as though I'm wearing "Pilot DAR" on a name tag at a PPRuNe bash. Hopefully more people will shake my hand than their fist at me!
Pilot DAR
Moderator
My technique on a grass runway or a paved one will always be the same, touch down with full flap, as slowly as possible (as much energy dissapated in the air, rather than on the ground).
Thus, Yes, I always use the same landing technique, unless I am praticing system failures (flaps) or performing a specific flight test which requires a different technique for the purposes of evaluation of the aircraft.
It's worked for me for tens of thousands of successful landings. Sure I try other things because I'm open minded, but I'm not a fool, I know that some things are just really asking for trouble! If I look like I'm going to create trouble, the people who want the test flights done don't call me anymore!
Thus, Yes, I always use the same landing technique, unless I am praticing system failures (flaps) or performing a specific flight test which requires a different technique for the purposes of evaluation of the aircraft.
It's worked for me for tens of thousands of successful landings. Sure I try other things because I'm open minded, but I'm not a fool, I know that some things are just really asking for trouble! If I look like I'm going to create trouble, the people who want the test flights done don't call me anymore!
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An aircraft is designed to cope with normal landings. The Cessna 152 POH does not prescribe landing with the stall warner going off - so it is not a normal landing. It states merely that it is necessary that the main wheels land first. (Goodness how many more times do we have to go through this)
Landing with the stall warner starting to hoot is good practice. End of story. You don't have to, but you sure as heck aren't going to hurt yourself or the aircraft because of the hooter making a bit of noise. Not normal........
Shall I let you into a little secret. Most Cessna landing accidents are caused by having too much speed on approach or by being too high, either way, too much energy.
So what happens? The pilot gets to the runway, starts to flare, but it won't touchdown. What happens then. Pilot gets a bright idea. "I'll force it down" Stick goes forward, nose wheel contacts the earth.
Springy nose oleo send the a/c skywards again, pilot shoves forward again, springy nose oleo sends it up again etc.etc until the third rendition of this farce. The energy is disappating all the way through this until dafty in the left hand seat finds themselves 10 ft above the runway in a nose down position without flying speed.
What do you think happens then? Prop and nosewheel meet runway. Nosewheel collapses and you have one very bent a/c and one very embarrassed pilot. Happens far more regularily than someone falling out of the sky early on in the landing.
All caused by having too much energy or speed or height or whatever you want to call it. Too much energy means you can't put the mainwheels down first. You are treading a much finer line than you need to by landing too quickly.
Have you ever heard of a phenomenon called ground effect and how it affects your landings?
Your assertation about runway edges are utter bunk and not worth arguing with.
No-one ever mentioned trying out stalling at 50ft. If your name was Kirby Chambliss then you could get away with it. For you I would get up to a sensible altitude and try it out. See what happens. The a/c works the same near the ground.
You've also utterly missed my point about situational awareness. You take everything into account. Weather, ATC, traffic etc to decide what your actions should be. however you can't just say that landing technique is part of "situational awareness" it is, but only a part not the whole thing. In fact I find I consider that sort of thing automatically, without conscious thought, so I don't really take that into my situational awareness. I'm thinking about who is around me and where the best place for a cup of coffee is as the most important parts of SA.
Right I'm off to bed.
Moderator
Wow, you guys in the UK sure stay up late!
Following an accident of a Cessna 172 being flown by an "instructor" into a very short runway I used to occasion, the only witness, the mother of the owner of the runway, was interviewed by the investigator.
During the interview, she apparently asked (the investigator told me later) "The brakes are on the main wheels right?", "yes" replied the investigator... "Then" mom continued, "wouldn't the plane stop better if the main wheels were on the ground instead of the only the nosewheel?".
It would appear that the "fully qualified" instructor had got close to the ground, somewhat too fast, and decided that the best way to keep the plane there, was to hold in down with forward control. It worked, the plane never left earth again!
Following an accident of a Cessna 172 being flown by an "instructor" into a very short runway I used to occasion, the only witness, the mother of the owner of the runway, was interviewed by the investigator.
During the interview, she apparently asked (the investigator told me later) "The brakes are on the main wheels right?", "yes" replied the investigator... "Then" mom continued, "wouldn't the plane stop better if the main wheels were on the ground instead of the only the nosewheel?".
It would appear that the "fully qualified" instructor had got close to the ground, somewhat too fast, and decided that the best way to keep the plane there, was to hold in down with forward control. It worked, the plane never left earth again!
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Vancouver Island
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Chuck,
The time will hopefully come where I am deserving of credit, which can be measured on the same scale as that upon which your experience is measured. You will have no problem identifying me should the need ever arise.
Pilot Dar:
My experience is spread over many years there is no doubt.....but I am truly impressed by your credentials and your common sense approach to the subject of airmanship.
As a last comment on this thread I do feel that we have given David enough advice and any further back and forth trying to reason with him will only drag this forum down.
The time will hopefully come where I am deserving of credit, which can be measured on the same scale as that upon which your experience is measured. You will have no problem identifying me should the need ever arise.
Pilot Dar:
My experience is spread over many years there is no doubt.....but I am truly impressed by your credentials and your common sense approach to the subject of airmanship.
As a last comment on this thread I do feel that we have given David enough advice and any further back and forth trying to reason with him will only drag this forum down.