Trimming, Landing & Instructors - HELP!!!
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 4,598
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Speed limits of 65 knots have been imposed on runways 06R,06L,27R and 27L.
If you can't back off a bit, at least proofread what you write, David. Remember that we have not seen you fly or met you in real life. All we have to base our opinion of you on, is what you write here. Spelling, interpunction, small and big mistakes, mistyped approach speeds and all.
Fly Conventional Gear
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Winchester
Posts: 1,600
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Boot on the other foot now!
......David you seem to be talking mostly about the C152 and for what its worth I rarely hear the warner when I land....which works fine for me (standing by for a series of extracted judgements about how bad a pilot I might be).
It does vary though from plane to plane....PA28 I again rarely hear it and dare I say that aircraft does seem to land smoother in a slightly flatter nose attitude than some some instructors would teach. The Firefly and the Bulldog I find always has the warner on landing and the Super Cub would (for a three point landing) of course if it had one.
But honestly it really doesn't matter much...as long as the nosewheel doesn't take any significant weight on landing.
Anyway the court of PPRuNe has clearly found DavidHoul52 of London guilty of crimes against aviation in the first degree and shall sentence him forwith....
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: London
Age: 71
Posts: 339
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
getting tired of your insulting those who frequent this forum
Last edited by DavidHoul52; 18th Sep 2008 at 18:51.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: London
Age: 71
Posts: 339
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quote:
Boot on the other foot now!
......
David you seem to be talking mostly about the C152 and for what its worth I rarely hear the warner when I land....which works fine for me (standing by for a series of extracted judgements about how bad a pilot I might be).
It does vary though from plane to plane....PA28 I again rarely hear it and dare I say that aircraft does seem to land smoother in a slightly flatter nose attitude than some some instructors would teach. The Firefly and the Bulldog I find always has the warner on landing and the Super Cub would (for a three point landing) of course if it had one.
But honestly it really doesn't matter much...as long as the nosewheel doesn't take any significant weight on landing.
Anyway the court of PPRuNe has clearly found DavidHoul52 of London guilty of crimes against aviation in the first degree and shall sentence him forwith....
Boot on the other foot now!
......
David you seem to be talking mostly about the C152 and for what its worth I rarely hear the warner when I land....which works fine for me (standing by for a series of extracted judgements about how bad a pilot I might be).
It does vary though from plane to plane....PA28 I again rarely hear it and dare I say that aircraft does seem to land smoother in a slightly flatter nose attitude than some some instructors would teach. The Firefly and the Bulldog I find always has the warner on landing and the Super Cub would (for a three point landing) of course if it had one.
But honestly it really doesn't matter much...as long as the nosewheel doesn't take any significant weight on landing.
Anyway the court of PPRuNe has clearly found DavidHoul52 of London guilty of crimes against aviation in the first degree and shall sentence him forwith....
Thanks!
Last edited by DavidHoul52; 18th Sep 2008 at 18:53.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: U.K.
Age: 46
Posts: 3,112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The thing is David. You aren't anything new here or in GA.
Someone with 5 minutes experience pontificating and making statements that are not only wrong but total and utter knackers.
This hasn't been a debate of any kind. With millions of hours flown on 152's landing one isn't exactly something that needs to be debated, especially amongst a bunch of people who have been flying and teaching on them for donkeys years.
I can back up any statement I have made using my knowledge of the aircraft and the principles of flight and aerodynamics. Can you?
You haven't really been insulted. Your knowledge has been questioned, weighed up and found wanting.
That isn't an issue. None of us were born knowing anything about flying.
What has been concerning has been your attitude to being corrected. You'll find people only got snippy AFTER you came up with more nonsense.
Ed gave you a hint after your very first post. His was one of the funniest "go away and think about it" posts I've seen on here.
What you didn't do was go and have a think and wonder why you got the reaction you did.
We are generally a polite bunch here (well apart from me obviously) and for Chuck to have posted how he has, has really surprised me. Not only will you struggle to find a more experienced instructor on this planet, but to get him riled, let's just say. I've never seen that on here before.
You can mock about stall warners going off when landing and make glib comments about airliners and stall warners, but to those who know anything about the difference between high inertia and low inertia aircraft realise you just don't know what you are talking about.
Instructors like to answer questions with other questions. That way it forces you to think about an answer which you are more likely to remember rather than just giving you an answer that you'll probably forget within a week.
Someone with 5 minutes experience pontificating and making statements that are not only wrong but total and utter knackers.
This hasn't been a debate of any kind. With millions of hours flown on 152's landing one isn't exactly something that needs to be debated, especially amongst a bunch of people who have been flying and teaching on them for donkeys years.
I can back up any statement I have made using my knowledge of the aircraft and the principles of flight and aerodynamics. Can you?
You haven't really been insulted. Your knowledge has been questioned, weighed up and found wanting.
That isn't an issue. None of us were born knowing anything about flying.
What has been concerning has been your attitude to being corrected. You'll find people only got snippy AFTER you came up with more nonsense.
Ed gave you a hint after your very first post. His was one of the funniest "go away and think about it" posts I've seen on here.
What you didn't do was go and have a think and wonder why you got the reaction you did.
We are generally a polite bunch here (well apart from me obviously) and for Chuck to have posted how he has, has really surprised me. Not only will you struggle to find a more experienced instructor on this planet, but to get him riled, let's just say. I've never seen that on here before.
You can mock about stall warners going off when landing and make glib comments about airliners and stall warners, but to those who know anything about the difference between high inertia and low inertia aircraft realise you just don't know what you are talking about.
Instructors like to answer questions with other questions. That way it forces you to think about an answer which you are more likely to remember rather than just giving you an answer that you'll probably forget within a week.
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Just a bit lower than the point where the falling angel meets the rising ape
Posts: 213
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry to interrupt, everyone...
Davidhoul52..
are you thomas harrison...
are you thomas harrison...
ARE YOU THOMAS HARRISON IN DISGUISE??
ARRRRRE YOU THOMAS HARRISON INN DIS-GUISE?
There. Got that off my chest.
Regards all.
are you thomas harrison...
are you thomas harrison...
ARE YOU THOMAS HARRISON IN DISGUISE??
ARRRRRE YOU THOMAS HARRISON INN DIS-GUISE?
There. Got that off my chest.
Regards all.
Moderator
Amazing!
Fortunately, I see this as entertainment, so it's fun to watch. As I said, it really does not affect me either way, so what do I really care about the outcome anyway!
There has been a favourble aspect to this huge debate about facts well in eveidence for decades, the rest of us got to know each other better. That's fantastic! Thanks David! How unfortunate it had to be at your expense.
The first attacks were at your ideas, not you, but for reasons which escape me, you seem to deliberately provoke more attacks, until they could only be upon you, as opposed to your ideas. Even after that, you stirred the pot!
In the beginning, I (not speaking for the others) saw a "new" pilot thirsting for a little knowledge. I'm happy to help. Indeed it was my post to another new pilot whom I was trying to reassure, which you quoted, and flung back at me with excess sarcasm. However, seeing your reasonable thirst for knowledge, I poured you a little of mine.... So did others here.
You spit it back at us! What a surprise! You know what, a group of us here have an amazing amount of knowledge, so just for fun, we drowned you in it. I'm quite honestly surprised your can still make it up for air after such a soaking! Credit to you for stamina!
I offer to you a practice manuever you can try very safely, which will demonstrate to you what we have been saying:
When you get onto a not busy, grass runway with your new pilot mentor in Scotland, tell him you're going to do the following for practice, and ask him to follow through with you (telling him first will relax him)
At a point on the grass runway free of any traffic, prior to moving at all, roll full right aileron, look left, and extend the flaps to the same angle as the aileron - about 15 degrees. Hold the wheel full back, and add power to 2000 RPM, the nose will come up, the nose wheel will come off the ground a little, and you'll find that you can taxi around all day long like this. When you can't see the runway ahead of you over the cowl, don't let the nose come up any higher. Banging the tail will make people unhappy (that's why we're not doing this on pavement). You will find that you will have excellent pitch control at a very low airspeed, raising and allowing the nose to settle in perfect control, You can play at this for quite some time as long as runway space and traffic permit. If there is a breeze, the nose wheel will come off before the plane moves forward at all.
When the aircraft is moving forward under your control this way, and you have adequate runway ahead of you and a takeoff clearance, apply full power gently, and just hold exactly that attitude. The aircraft will takeoff perfectly, as long as you point it right down the runway. Remember that attitude. When you see it just before you touch at landing, you're going to have a landing we'd all applaud! Overlook the fact that you took off with 15 instead of 10 flap, just think of yourself being a little naughty!
I'm ready for the next comment.........
Fortunately, I see this as entertainment, so it's fun to watch. As I said, it really does not affect me either way, so what do I really care about the outcome anyway!
There has been a favourble aspect to this huge debate about facts well in eveidence for decades, the rest of us got to know each other better. That's fantastic! Thanks David! How unfortunate it had to be at your expense.
The first attacks were at your ideas, not you, but for reasons which escape me, you seem to deliberately provoke more attacks, until they could only be upon you, as opposed to your ideas. Even after that, you stirred the pot!
In the beginning, I (not speaking for the others) saw a "new" pilot thirsting for a little knowledge. I'm happy to help. Indeed it was my post to another new pilot whom I was trying to reassure, which you quoted, and flung back at me with excess sarcasm. However, seeing your reasonable thirst for knowledge, I poured you a little of mine.... So did others here.
You spit it back at us! What a surprise! You know what, a group of us here have an amazing amount of knowledge, so just for fun, we drowned you in it. I'm quite honestly surprised your can still make it up for air after such a soaking! Credit to you for stamina!
I offer to you a practice manuever you can try very safely, which will demonstrate to you what we have been saying:
When you get onto a not busy, grass runway with your new pilot mentor in Scotland, tell him you're going to do the following for practice, and ask him to follow through with you (telling him first will relax him)
At a point on the grass runway free of any traffic, prior to moving at all, roll full right aileron, look left, and extend the flaps to the same angle as the aileron - about 15 degrees. Hold the wheel full back, and add power to 2000 RPM, the nose will come up, the nose wheel will come off the ground a little, and you'll find that you can taxi around all day long like this. When you can't see the runway ahead of you over the cowl, don't let the nose come up any higher. Banging the tail will make people unhappy (that's why we're not doing this on pavement). You will find that you will have excellent pitch control at a very low airspeed, raising and allowing the nose to settle in perfect control, You can play at this for quite some time as long as runway space and traffic permit. If there is a breeze, the nose wheel will come off before the plane moves forward at all.
When the aircraft is moving forward under your control this way, and you have adequate runway ahead of you and a takeoff clearance, apply full power gently, and just hold exactly that attitude. The aircraft will takeoff perfectly, as long as you point it right down the runway. Remember that attitude. When you see it just before you touch at landing, you're going to have a landing we'd all applaud! Overlook the fact that you took off with 15 instead of 10 flap, just think of yourself being a little naughty!
I'm ready for the next comment.........
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Londonish
Posts: 779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dear me!
David, you've obviously read 'The Killing Zone'. If there's one theme to that book, it is that attitude is a killer. The section on pilot personalities is particularly pertinent - For my part, I'm the "It'll be fine, rules are for other people" type. Consequently I keep a weather eye on that aspect of my personality whenever near a plane.
Hopefully you've also taken note - It's not hard to take guess or two where you might fall.. and it's that black and white, I am right, the world is wrong attitude that's causing you such grief in here, and by the sound of other threads, in the cockpit too. Particularly when it's apparently based on one instructor, and little experience.
As you're discovering, different instructors have different ideas. There are different ways of skinning the cat, and there's a lot of merit in flying with many, and absorbing the best of each.
You are of course right that taking internet advice isn't necessarily smart.. but wind the neck in, watch a little, and you'll soon figure who knows what they're talking about - The same applies to other sources, instructors, books, you name it. No doubt you're attached to your instructor, but you may be realising by now that what you've been taught is somewhat at odds with the general concensus.
For example my 150 pilot guide (asa) says that 'Many schools recommend approaches are not made with full flap as the excessive drag can make it difficult during the flare, and requires a high degree of skill during the go-around'(!!!!) I'll be unequivocal here and stick my neck out - if you can't manage a go around or flare in a 150 from full flap, tear up your license... it's for your own good!
Lastly - take a look in the POH - specifically at the landing distance figures for the 152 at zero flap. Unless yours is very different to mine, you won't find them. Consider why.
David, you've obviously read 'The Killing Zone'. If there's one theme to that book, it is that attitude is a killer. The section on pilot personalities is particularly pertinent - For my part, I'm the "It'll be fine, rules are for other people" type. Consequently I keep a weather eye on that aspect of my personality whenever near a plane.
Hopefully you've also taken note - It's not hard to take guess or two where you might fall.. and it's that black and white, I am right, the world is wrong attitude that's causing you such grief in here, and by the sound of other threads, in the cockpit too. Particularly when it's apparently based on one instructor, and little experience.
As you're discovering, different instructors have different ideas. There are different ways of skinning the cat, and there's a lot of merit in flying with many, and absorbing the best of each.
You are of course right that taking internet advice isn't necessarily smart.. but wind the neck in, watch a little, and you'll soon figure who knows what they're talking about - The same applies to other sources, instructors, books, you name it. No doubt you're attached to your instructor, but you may be realising by now that what you've been taught is somewhat at odds with the general concensus.
For example my 150 pilot guide (asa) says that 'Many schools recommend approaches are not made with full flap as the excessive drag can make it difficult during the flare, and requires a high degree of skill during the go-around'(!!!!) I'll be unequivocal here and stick my neck out - if you can't manage a go around or flare in a 150 from full flap, tear up your license... it's for your own good!
Lastly - take a look in the POH - specifically at the landing distance figures for the 152 at zero flap. Unless yours is very different to mine, you won't find them. Consider why.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: De Dam
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
David - I wasn't going to post on this thread again, quite simply because I've come to the conclusion that you may actually be too stupid to listen to any type of reason. However, I think this thread should be required reading for all novice pilots who don't have a death wish.
The simple truth is, arrogance and stupidity go together with flying like strawberries and mustard. I don't know much, but I do know that.
GA is under enough pressure in this country without you driving your plane into someone's house because you decided that Newton's Third law of Motion was a matter of opinion.
Do you realise how lucky you are to have access to some of the experience on this forum? And it's all free. Yet you think this is a 'debate' amongst equals.
YOUR ATTITUDE IS GOING TO GET YOU KILLED.
Please try not to take anyone else with you.
The simple truth is, arrogance and stupidity go together with flying like strawberries and mustard. I don't know much, but I do know that.
GA is under enough pressure in this country without you driving your plane into someone's house because you decided that Newton's Third law of Motion was a matter of opinion.
Do you realise how lucky you are to have access to some of the experience on this forum? And it's all free. Yet you think this is a 'debate' amongst equals.
YOUR ATTITUDE IS GOING TO GET YOU KILLED.
Please try not to take anyone else with you.
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Derby
Age: 45
Posts: 339
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Best time here.
I've never had such a big laugh since they aired "FATHER TED".
I must say someone on this forum should consider remedial training. Nevermind the fact he/she passed his/her test.
There's nothing wrong in landing an aircraft on the warner.
Such landings are often the case on a PA-38.
On other types, the warner may never go off at all.
There is a lot to learn as a new PPL. Either admit you are wrong and start learning again or go on being oblivious is what I would say.
1/60
I must say someone on this forum should consider remedial training. Nevermind the fact he/she passed his/her test.
There's nothing wrong in landing an aircraft on the warner.
Such landings are often the case on a PA-38.
On other types, the warner may never go off at all.
There is a lot to learn as a new PPL. Either admit you are wrong and start learning again or go on being oblivious is what I would say.
1/60
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Scotland
Age: 84
Posts: 1,434
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I believe this is a dead horse job.
Many highly qualified instructors, pilots, aviators of vast experience have done their best.
David seems to have started a new thread.
Quote: Check outs
Is there any chance instructors doing a check out (for hiring purposes) could restrict themselves to checking and giving helpful advice on their local circuit and environs without attempting to re-train one with their own ideas (except where there is an obvious safety issue, of course)
Un-quote
-------------------------------------------------------------------
This has been one of the most entertaining threads I have seen on here or any other forum.
At least I have learned a few things & will try a few more.
Pilot Dar
My mate has a 152 on a tarmac strip & I have an Emeraude on a deserted grass strip. Both of us became "fully qualified" last August.
I shall persuade him to let us practice that this weekend.
Many highly qualified instructors, pilots, aviators of vast experience have done their best.
David seems to have started a new thread.
Quote: Check outs
Is there any chance instructors doing a check out (for hiring purposes) could restrict themselves to checking and giving helpful advice on their local circuit and environs without attempting to re-train one with their own ideas (except where there is an obvious safety issue, of course)
Un-quote
-------------------------------------------------------------------
This has been one of the most entertaining threads I have seen on here or any other forum.
At least I have learned a few things & will try a few more.
Pilot Dar
My mate has a 152 on a tarmac strip & I have an Emeraude on a deserted grass strip. Both of us became "fully qualified" last August.
I shall persuade him to let us practice that this weekend.
Moderator
Crash One,
This is a geat way to practice precision low speed control very safely. You'll really get a feel for the relationship between pitch control authority and airspeed (or lack thereof). The 15 degree flap setting seems to be the key. It directs the airflow more precisely over the horizontal stabilizer, and makes it more effective. You will find that while you are very established in this configuartion with the nosewheel off, if you retract the flaps, you can no longer hold the nosewheel off.
This technique allowed me to get a 172 out of an airport where the long path between the hangar and the runway had been all torn up with a bulldozer. The ground was much too rough for the nose wheel, and all sorts of debris would have been drawn into the propeller. Two heavy helpers in the back seat, and the aformentioned procedure, and the 172 now had the ground handling characteristics of a Cessna 180, and got out to the runway just fine. Of course my heavy helpers got out before takeoff!
Do be very careful to not slam the tail tiedown ring down onto hard ground. The whole assembly which holds it into the tail can be broken off inside, and that is a big fix! Another option is to temporarily replace the tiedown ring with an AN5 bolt. If there are two of you, pilot who will be performing the taxiing sits in the seat, second person pushes the tail down gently to contact the ground so the pilot gets a sense of what the worst case view will look like. (Assure that the other person is instructed to apply the down force on the stabilizer right on the rivets of the forward spar, right next the the fuselage fairing, so as to prevent damaging the stailizer structure).
The 152 may have slightly different power settings compared to my 150 to accomplish this, as the engine and propeller are different, but it will work.
Once you perfect this, you'll be all set if you ever have to operate from gravel runways, and want to prevent gravel damage to the prop! It works to verying degrees on most Cessnas. Different story on PA-28's - warnings required for those in this regard!
Have fun!
Pilot DAR
This is a geat way to practice precision low speed control very safely. You'll really get a feel for the relationship between pitch control authority and airspeed (or lack thereof). The 15 degree flap setting seems to be the key. It directs the airflow more precisely over the horizontal stabilizer, and makes it more effective. You will find that while you are very established in this configuartion with the nosewheel off, if you retract the flaps, you can no longer hold the nosewheel off.
This technique allowed me to get a 172 out of an airport where the long path between the hangar and the runway had been all torn up with a bulldozer. The ground was much too rough for the nose wheel, and all sorts of debris would have been drawn into the propeller. Two heavy helpers in the back seat, and the aformentioned procedure, and the 172 now had the ground handling characteristics of a Cessna 180, and got out to the runway just fine. Of course my heavy helpers got out before takeoff!
Do be very careful to not slam the tail tiedown ring down onto hard ground. The whole assembly which holds it into the tail can be broken off inside, and that is a big fix! Another option is to temporarily replace the tiedown ring with an AN5 bolt. If there are two of you, pilot who will be performing the taxiing sits in the seat, second person pushes the tail down gently to contact the ground so the pilot gets a sense of what the worst case view will look like. (Assure that the other person is instructed to apply the down force on the stabilizer right on the rivets of the forward spar, right next the the fuselage fairing, so as to prevent damaging the stailizer structure).
The 152 may have slightly different power settings compared to my 150 to accomplish this, as the engine and propeller are different, but it will work.
Once you perfect this, you'll be all set if you ever have to operate from gravel runways, and want to prevent gravel damage to the prop! It works to verying degrees on most Cessnas. Different story on PA-28's - warnings required for those in this regard!
Have fun!
Pilot DAR
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: London
Age: 71
Posts: 339
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
extend the flaps to the same angle as the aileron - about 15 degrees.
Sounds like a fun idea. I don't think Cessna 152 does 15 degrees flaps (20 maybe?). People might wonder what the hell I'm doing though!
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: London
Age: 71
Posts: 339
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
it's that black and white, I am right, the world is wrong attitude that's causing you such grief in here
Something else I've found is that just about everyone in aviation seems to have their own idea about what is dangerous. For me, it's traffic. On my own I sit in the left hand seat peering this way and that like a terrified chicken at times. No doubt I'll obtain a balance in time.
I was very impressed with the book, by the way and helped a lot with my attitude during training and understanding what the priorities are. A strange idea he has though - is that he considers touch-and-goes dangerous and will not allow his students to do them. Do they taxi back to the beginning of the runway after each circuit I wonder?
Last edited by DavidHoul52; 19th Sep 2008 at 13:31.
Moderator
No David,
Don't worry, no huff! I cannot be huffed at all easily! We have a timezone difference (so I get to stay up later) and I also work! Yesterday was my meeting at Transport Canada for discussion of the details of several flight test programs I will be undertaking shortly - one on the very nice turbine DC-3 in the photos... Towed survey bird.
Single Cessnas with powered flaps (with a few very early model exceptions) have electric motors. They are actuated by either a simple switch of one of two configurations, or "preselect", which is all 152's. Without going into the design details of how those systems both work. I can assure you that you are able to set the flaps to whatever angle you wish, even between "stops". Cessnas with manual flaps (older ones of many models, and all 180/185), and other aircraft types (non Cessnas) do not necessarily work this way though, and could not have the flaps so positioned.
Cessnas with manual flaps enable the use of the flaps instantly for dramatic sudden changes in lift and drag. Somtimes very skilled pilots use this feature in STOL and float operations.
Be careful here David, you might be learning.....
Pilot DAR
Don't worry, no huff! I cannot be huffed at all easily! We have a timezone difference (so I get to stay up later) and I also work! Yesterday was my meeting at Transport Canada for discussion of the details of several flight test programs I will be undertaking shortly - one on the very nice turbine DC-3 in the photos... Towed survey bird.
Single Cessnas with powered flaps (with a few very early model exceptions) have electric motors. They are actuated by either a simple switch of one of two configurations, or "preselect", which is all 152's. Without going into the design details of how those systems both work. I can assure you that you are able to set the flaps to whatever angle you wish, even between "stops". Cessnas with manual flaps (older ones of many models, and all 180/185), and other aircraft types (non Cessnas) do not necessarily work this way though, and could not have the flaps so positioned.
Cessnas with manual flaps enable the use of the flaps instantly for dramatic sudden changes in lift and drag. Somtimes very skilled pilots use this feature in STOL and float operations.
Be careful here David, you might be learning.....
Pilot DAR