Trimming, Landing & Instructors - HELP!!!
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David (which is a name), "idiot" is not a name, it's a description of a person.
I have not consistently targeted one person. You have! This is really, really getting ridiculous and that is really, really bad form.
What do you think of ContactTower's post????
Name me one thing that I have said that is dangerous for students or other pilots to read? If so I will detract it. (The students are mainly over at Flyer Forum - much more pleasant and positive atmosphere there)
It's this patronising tone - no doubt well meant - which undermines your credibility. Talk to people as intelligent human beings. Stop right there - don't make any more insulting remarks. I have not insulted you guys - not agreeing with you is not insulting you. A forum is a place for discussion among equals - you are not in the right hand seat. I really can't believe there's an internet forum where people think there's a pecking order.
A few comments like that ContactTower one way or the other and this thread would have finished on page 2.
You will notice my own comments are often tempered with qualifiers, a sense of humour, and general chit chat.
I don't believe GA is dominated by a bunch of nazis but it sure seems this forum is!
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I don't believe GA is dominated by a bunch of nazis but it sure seems this forum is!
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David, you seem to criticise this forum rather a lot. If you dislike it so much, why do you come back? I have taken a lot of good advice from this site from those with vast amounts more experience more than me, for which I am grateful. You just seem to want to upset the very people who set out to help and advise you! You have proved that you don’t want to take anything on board from the huge knowledge base here and to be honest, it's just getting irritating.
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It's just this thread!
Otherwise, yes I do like the forum.
Sadly this thread is now getting dark and maybe it's time to quit.
Thanks to those who had something positive or entertaining or anecdotal to say even if you didn't agree with me.
To a handful of others - you take yourselves too seriously. You need to earn the right to be heard.
Otherwise, yes I do like the forum.
Sadly this thread is now getting dark and maybe it's time to quit.
Thanks to those who had something positive or entertaining or anecdotal to say even if you didn't agree with me.
To a handful of others - you take yourselves too seriously. You need to earn the right to be heard.
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Need to earn the right to be heard... are you for real?!! Given their knowledge and experience, I would opine that it is YOU, David, who needs to earn the right to be heard!
Fly Conventional Gear
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Actually on that note David we'd be interested to know if this thread has changed your views at all on the subject. I mean everyone is posting with the assumption that it's gone completely over your head but I can't believe it has.....
Not that it matters a huge amount but have your views changed at all?
Do you still believe that landing with the warner on is dangerous?
I'm not taking a side at all (as I said previously my opinion is pretty neutral on this subject) I'm just curious to see how much you've believed/considered/taken on board from the other posters. It can be difficult to either admitting one's changed one's mind or has thought about it when one believes (rightly or wrongly) that the people you are arguing against are being rude to you.
Not that it matters a huge amount but have your views changed at all?
Do you still believe that landing with the warner on is dangerous?
I'm not taking a side at all (as I said previously my opinion is pretty neutral on this subject) I'm just curious to see how much you've believed/considered/taken on board from the other posters. It can be difficult to either admitting one's changed one's mind or has thought about it when one believes (rightly or wrongly) that the people you are arguing against are being rude to you.
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Closure
What I will do - since you guys think I haven't been "listening" (last time I was accused of that I think I was 12!) - I will read through all the posts again - yours and mine - and write up a summary, trying to be as objective as possible.
How's that?
You are going to have to give me some time. It doesn't matter - nothing on the telly tonight and my girlfriend is over in Ireland for a few days.
In the mean time keep firing away with those insults!
How's that?
You are going to have to give me some time. It doesn't matter - nothing on the telly tonight and my girlfriend is over in Ireland for a few days.
In the mean time keep firing away with those insults!
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we'd be interested to know if this thread has changed your views at all
I have also come to believe that as landing is such a core part of flying and flying training that one should not try to change radically the way one does it without some time with an instructor and even then only if you have some safety concern (or the way you have been taught is not working for you)
And just to add... I think everyone agrees on the fundamentals of landing - approach speed - height of flare - landing on the main wheels - controlling for cross-winds and so on.
Last edited by DavidHoul52; 19th Sep 2008 at 19:35.
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Short answer - yes I do still think landing with the stall warner going is dangerous where there are strong cross wind gusts. I don't see anything wrong with it at other times (maybe my view has changed slightly in this respect). I don't believe it is necessary - at least not with the aircraft I am familiar with.
David, please accept my apology for referring to you as an idiot.
However you are only suffering from ignorance of the physics and aerodynamics of the art of flying because this is 100% wrong.
Short answer - yes I do still think landing with the stall warner going is dangerous where there are strong cross wind gusts.
Maybe the time has come to quit arguing such nonsense and go find someone who can either teach you how to fly or recommend your PPL be revoked.
Now that I have apologized for my comment about you being an idiot I trust this finishes our conversations?
David, please accept my apology for referring to you as an idiot.
However you are only suffering from ignorance of the physics and aerodynamics of the art of flying because this is 100% wrong.
Short answer - yes I do still think landing with the stall warner going is dangerous where there are strong cross wind gusts.
Maybe the time has come to quit arguing such nonsense and go find someone who can either teach you how to fly or recommend your PPL be revoked.
Now that I have apologized for my comment about you being an idiot I trust this finishes our conversations?
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David, please accept my apology for referring to you as an idiot.
However you are only suffering from ignorance
However you are only suffering from ignorance
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Actually come to think of it - no instructor I have ever been with has ever taught me to wait for the stall warner.
Maybe it's you guys who are trying to wind ME up.
Oh dear
Maybe it's you guys who are trying to wind ME up.
Oh dear
Moderator
David,
Your most recent statement is very reassuring, as now I do see that you have taken our efforts on behalf of your safety completely to heart.
You acknowledged the problem very well, and now you have execellent background with which to seek out a solution! If you ever encounter an instructor who will not support your efforts to grow in skill, and understand the true elements of landing in general, as opposed to a "by rote" method, have them post here, and refer to your need for advancement, and we (well, I will anyway) will expent effort on your behalf to convince them too!
Objective met the whole way around near as I see it! Good work people!
Pilot DAR
Your most recent statement is very reassuring, as now I do see that you have taken our efforts on behalf of your safety completely to heart.
You acknowledged the problem very well, and now you have execellent background with which to seek out a solution! If you ever encounter an instructor who will not support your efforts to grow in skill, and understand the true elements of landing in general, as opposed to a "by rote" method, have them post here, and refer to your need for advancement, and we (well, I will anyway) will expent effort on your behalf to convince them too!
Objective met the whole way around near as I see it! Good work people!
Pilot DAR
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Short answer - yes I do still think landing with the stall warner going is dangerous where there are strong cross wind gusts.
As far as I understand your thinking, your reasoning is that landing at higher speed gives you better margin to the stall, where control is supposedly dangerously limited.
My reasoning (and my PPL is even fresher than yours, so I'm also just trying to learn this and am prepared to stand corrected!), is that control is not dangerously limited in the air just above stall speed, but it is dangerously limited on the ground at flying speed and in strong/gusty winds.
For your wheels to provide any cornering force, you have to have weight on them. On the ground at close to flying speed you have hardly any cornering force since you are still too light on the wheels, and you are no longer able to generate a sideways force in the normal way (by banking). So you are basically at the mercy of the wind. If you don't get a strong sideways gust in the few seconds it takes you to decelerate enough to become heavy on the wheels and get a cornering force, you'll be fine. If you do get such a gust, you're blown off to the side; if the gust is bad enough, you'll end up on the grass.
That, I believe, is why even though the runway is long, smooth, and hardened, it is still not a good idea to touch down fast in strong winds. Of course, if the runway is not as long, not as smooth, and soft, it's imperative not to be on it at high speed.
That is my thinking and how I'm flying (at the moment!); as said, I'm happy to be corrected, if called for!
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For your wheels to provide any cornering force, you have to have weight on them. On the ground at close to flying speed you have hardly any cornering force since you are still too light on the wheels, and you are no longer able to generate a sideways force in the normal way (by banking).
That's just my guess - trying to think aerodynamically!
I am expecting the cry of "rubbish" at any moment, but since you asked....
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That is my thinking and how I'm flying (at the moment!); as said, I'm happy to be corrected, if called for!
As far as I'm concerned, anytime an aircraft is above the stall speed, it is flying (aerobatics/unusual attitudes excepted). And as you say, if the wheels are connected to the tarmac it is flying but with limited ability to bank, thus not able to correct crosswind gusts all that well. And another thing that can go wrong is a bump in the runway, throwing you back into the air with nothing on the clock but the manufacturers name, waiting for an imminent and costly arrival.
So actually touching down should be done with the least energy/speed above the stall that the airframe allows, so that when the wheels touch the tarmac the aircraft has landed, instead of continuing to fly.
Caveat: there are some aircraft that should be landed slightly above the stall because of a tailstrike risk. I've heard (but not experienced) this about Cirrusus (Cirri?) and I have personally experienced a few harmless tailstrikes in the Robin R2160, due to the large keel, when landing in a lightweight configuration, both full and no flaps.
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You are very correct, so keep flying like you do now.
Last edited by DavidHoul52; 19th Sep 2008 at 21:17.