GA Landing Technique...
Thread Starter
GA Landing Technique...
Hey Everybody,
Forgive me if this has been already posted by someone else but i cant find any info so here i go...
Basically, my landing technique (Cessna 152) has been gettin progressively worse than it has before. I'm 17 going on 18 and at the moment dont fly often enough really to give good continuity in my lessons with my instructor.
I either do not bring the nose up on touchdown to initiate a good flare with the main landing gear (ending with a rather flat hard thump) or have trouble co-ordinating the ailerons and rudder, especially in X-wind conditions to provide a wings level touchdown causing me to stray across the runway touching down with only 1 wheel (which can be quite nerve-racking!)
I was hoping some of you more experience lot out there could give me some tips to ensure a more smooth landing? ( I know about 'keeping the picture' and 'looking up the far end of the runway') but i seem to loose all that thought just before touchdown.
Hope you can help (and hope this is in the right forum!)
Lewis
Forgive me if this has been already posted by someone else but i cant find any info so here i go...
Basically, my landing technique (Cessna 152) has been gettin progressively worse than it has before. I'm 17 going on 18 and at the moment dont fly often enough really to give good continuity in my lessons with my instructor.
I either do not bring the nose up on touchdown to initiate a good flare with the main landing gear (ending with a rather flat hard thump) or have trouble co-ordinating the ailerons and rudder, especially in X-wind conditions to provide a wings level touchdown causing me to stray across the runway touching down with only 1 wheel (which can be quite nerve-racking!)
I was hoping some of you more experience lot out there could give me some tips to ensure a more smooth landing? ( I know about 'keeping the picture' and 'looking up the far end of the runway') but i seem to loose all that thought just before touchdown.
Hope you can help (and hope this is in the right forum!)
Lewis
First of all, in a crosswind landing, you're supposed to land with one wheel first... depending on the strength and direction of the wind, its entirely possible this will result in you touching one main, then the nosewheel, and then the other main wheel. This is very disconcerting the first few times, but then you get used to it.
For the flare, you might find it helpful to visualise flying the main wheels down to the runway, making sure to keep the nose wheel out of the way until later. From your post, it didnt sound like you have a problem actually doing the flare, more of a problem in remembering that you have to flare.
Ask your instructor to remind you to flare, every time you land, for about two weeks. From then on, they can remain quiet, but in your head, you will still hear their voice saying "flare", and you will remember to flare.
Also get your instructor to demonstrate some one-wing-down crosswind landings. In heavy jets, you will have to crab, instead, but in a lighty, putting a wing down is by far the easiest way, because there is no need to worry about performing a dance with the controls to straighten up and level your wings while you're half a foot off the runway. Just go ahead and land one wheel first.
Even in a low-wing aircraft, you will not clip the wingtip on the ground. There is plenty of room.
For the flare, you might find it helpful to visualise flying the main wheels down to the runway, making sure to keep the nose wheel out of the way until later. From your post, it didnt sound like you have a problem actually doing the flare, more of a problem in remembering that you have to flare.
Ask your instructor to remind you to flare, every time you land, for about two weeks. From then on, they can remain quiet, but in your head, you will still hear their voice saying "flare", and you will remember to flare.
Also get your instructor to demonstrate some one-wing-down crosswind landings. In heavy jets, you will have to crab, instead, but in a lighty, putting a wing down is by far the easiest way, because there is no need to worry about performing a dance with the controls to straighten up and level your wings while you're half a foot off the runway. Just go ahead and land one wheel first.
Even in a low-wing aircraft, you will not clip the wingtip on the ground. There is plenty of room.
It is the right forum, but in my view you will not learn to land from written advice. (Though you will no doubt get many replies to this thread)
Talk (& listen) to your instructor, and it will come to you with time.
Talk (& listen) to your instructor, and it will come to you with time.
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In my early stages of training I had real problems with landing. It delayed my 1st solo by about 5 hours.
If the approch is good, the flare becomes a lot easier. If you are set up correctly, at the right speed with the right rate of descent, and central on the runway all you have left is the flare and plenty of time to think about it. It's when you're not quite central, or too fast, or too high that thinking about flaring becomes an nightmare.
Once your set up correctly I always look to the end of the runway, then use periferal vision to see myself sinking. Then bring the nose up to protect the nosewheel and a nice gentle touchdown follows.
It may be worth spending some time just sitting in the aircraft on the ground so you get a feel for how low you are with the wheels on the gound. Then it is easier to set up a flare attitude where you don't land nose first.
As has been said before, landing one wheel at a time in a cross wind is fine, and many consider it good airmanship to do so.
If the approch is good, the flare becomes a lot easier. If you are set up correctly, at the right speed with the right rate of descent, and central on the runway all you have left is the flare and plenty of time to think about it. It's when you're not quite central, or too fast, or too high that thinking about flaring becomes an nightmare.
Once your set up correctly I always look to the end of the runway, then use periferal vision to see myself sinking. Then bring the nose up to protect the nosewheel and a nice gentle touchdown follows.
It may be worth spending some time just sitting in the aircraft on the ground so you get a feel for how low you are with the wheels on the gound. Then it is easier to set up a flare attitude where you don't land nose first.
As has been said before, landing one wheel at a time in a cross wind is fine, and many consider it good airmanship to do so.
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Lew 747
I am a flying instructor and hold a FATPL/IR.
I have never instructed anyone to land one wheel first and disagree that you are supposed to, however should this suit Lasiorhinus that is fine.
I do not know how long your runway is however, when I have a student with this problem I perform a very low app and go round. I hold the aircraft off the ground at just a few feet and then get the student to continue for the runway lenght about 1 mile. This has always sorted the problem out. the same can be done in a crosswind to keep the plane over the centre line. hard work a good lesson and great fun.
It does all just click, make sure above all else that you enjoy yourself as that is what it is all about. This is paramount with my students.
I am a flying instructor and hold a FATPL/IR.
I have never instructed anyone to land one wheel first and disagree that you are supposed to, however should this suit Lasiorhinus that is fine.
I do not know how long your runway is however, when I have a student with this problem I perform a very low app and go round. I hold the aircraft off the ground at just a few feet and then get the student to continue for the runway lenght about 1 mile. This has always sorted the problem out. the same can be done in a crosswind to keep the plane over the centre line. hard work a good lesson and great fun.
It does all just click, make sure above all else that you enjoy yourself as that is what it is all about. This is paramount with my students.
depending on the strength and direction of the wind, its entirely possible this will result in you touching one main, then the nosewheel, and then the other main wheel.
), then the second mainwheel, THEN the nosewheel? And hold off after the flare please, don't just let it all fall on to the ground in an untidy heap.
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mack 1, you are one of those instructors that thinks landing a 777 and a GA plane is the same technique, shame on you, it IS NOT!
Landing on one wheel wing down in the wind in crosswind landings is the way to go with GA planes.
Landing on one wheel wing down in the wind in crosswind landings is the way to go with GA planes.
Landing on one wheel wing down in the wind in crosswind landings is the way to go with GA planes
depends
some a/c run out of aileron too soon, some have large wingspans that preclude this technique
Some a/c are hard to land by kicking off the drift due to the induced roll created by a bootful of rudder
Some like to drop the nose when you kick off the drift
Some have all these problems
some conventional gear a/c are hard to control in direction once the tail is down (which is why airfields used to be more or less square)
Some nosedraggers won't steer until the nosewheel is firmly on the ground (DR400 comes to mind)
Please don't assume that YOUR technique came carved on stone slabs along with the ten commandments.
There, now that I have upset everyone I will go off and catch a boat.
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It is not possible to give a defintive approach as all airports are different however, if possible have a long as possible final to establish the real crosswind and crab into it. This will change as you lower and on the ground. Keep crabbing all the way down with the centre line extending to between your legs this does bring you right down in the middle. Bring the plane down and flare like this, just before touch down opposit rudder to bring straight, it does work very well as I have been given students that other instructors were having trouble with and two lessons sorted. The first being the low app and go round. Its all about staying calm and making sure that the student is always enjoying what they are doing even if it is hard work.
Thread Starter
Thanks for your replies so far.
Being fascinated by aviation from such a young age, and always watching big jet aircraft land, it always assumed to me, when starting my flying lessons, that a mile or so from touchdown you would have the airplane in a nose high attitude, and once over the threshold, reducing power and bring the nose up more to increase the flare...obviously i see this is not the case, however i have not tried such a thing to see if that works or not.
I guess it's just a case of practice make perfect! Looks like i'll be spending some more time in the circuit...
Oh and for those interested, the airport is Lydd, in Kent (UK)- EGMD, Asphalt Rwy- 4900ft....737's are capable of landing on it, not 152's piloted by myself d'oh
Being fascinated by aviation from such a young age, and always watching big jet aircraft land, it always assumed to me, when starting my flying lessons, that a mile or so from touchdown you would have the airplane in a nose high attitude, and once over the threshold, reducing power and bring the nose up more to increase the flare...obviously i see this is not the case, however i have not tried such a thing to see if that works or not.
I guess it's just a case of practice make perfect! Looks like i'll be spending some more time in the circuit...
Oh and for those interested, the airport is Lydd, in Kent (UK)- EGMD, Asphalt Rwy- 4900ft....737's are capable of landing on it, not 152's piloted by myself d'oh
Unless you've got a strong crosswind, then it's definitely possible to have the nosewheel second.
This is not going to happen all the time - it's not going to happen very often. When it does, the second mainwheel touches down not very long after the nosewheel...
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Lew
When I started to fly circuits I could never sort out a proper, wing down into wind, one main wheel first, landing no matter how hard I tried.
An ex RAF tornado pilot was helping out at the school one weekend and gave me an hour of his very valuable time.He taught the crab approach and kick it straight with the rudder just before touchdown, and I had no problem.I used the same technique in the GFT and had no bother with the examiner.Since then I have persevered with the wing down approach and it improves gradually
thats just my tuppenorth, try asking your instructor to help you with different methods
When I started to fly circuits I could never sort out a proper, wing down into wind, one main wheel first, landing no matter how hard I tried.
An ex RAF tornado pilot was helping out at the school one weekend and gave me an hour of his very valuable time.He taught the crab approach and kick it straight with the rudder just before touchdown, and I had no problem.I used the same technique in the GFT and had no bother with the examiner.Since then I have persevered with the wing down approach and it improves gradually
thats just my tuppenorth, try asking your instructor to help you with different methods
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Thread Starter
This is probs the main reason? But it would/was nice to recieve some tips from others as to how they might go about do it.
At the moment being a student...I have very few monies
At the moment being a student...I have very few monies
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Wing down v crab approach
FWIW with a wing down landing you know before you land that you have enough rudder to point the nose along the runway, because you're already doing just that.
With a crabbing approach there's more skill and timing required to squeeze off the drift in the hold-off. Most tailwheelers have decent sized rudders so taking off the drift isn't a problem. With Jodels, a wing down landing isn't such a good idea as the dihedral rib is already quite close to the ground, I see no benefit in reducing this distance even more.....
tth
With a crabbing approach there's more skill and timing required to squeeze off the drift in the hold-off. Most tailwheelers have decent sized rudders so taking off the drift isn't a problem. With Jodels, a wing down landing isn't such a good idea as the dihedral rib is already quite close to the ground, I see no benefit in reducing this distance even more.....
tth
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FWIW, here's my technique. I crab in after turning final until about 300 feet, then switch to a slip (wing-down) so I have plenty of time to stabilize it before I touch. I have never tried landing wings-level with a cross-wind and I would imagine the side-loads on the gears would be significant. I usually know I wasn't slipping her down right by a side-ways jolt when I touchdown.
Next time you're up, give yourself a bit of altitude, set the airplane up for slow flight, and just practice transitioning the airplane into and out of slips, first one way then the other. Eventually it will become second nature, like doing coordinated turns.
The other thing I did (partly for fun) was specifically request a cross-wind runway. I see that Lydd has only a single runway. Perhaps there's a nearby airport you can practice at?
Next time you're up, give yourself a bit of altitude, set the airplane up for slow flight, and just practice transitioning the airplane into and out of slips, first one way then the other. Eventually it will become second nature, like doing coordinated turns.
The other thing I did (partly for fun) was specifically request a cross-wind runway. I see that Lydd has only a single runway. Perhaps there's a nearby airport you can practice at?
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If you kick it, you're doing it too hard. Pilots who talk of kicking the rudder are using misleading terminology which may lead students to over control - because you need to "squeeze" it.
You squeeze the rudder until the nose is pointing straight down the runway, simultaneously countering any wing lift with aileron (if you apply right rudder, the left wing will lift, so you use left aileron to stop that lift).
You squeeze the rudder until the nose is pointing straight down the runway, simultaneously countering any wing lift with aileron (if you apply right rudder, the left wing will lift, so you use left aileron to stop that lift).
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Wing down vs Crab is one of those debates that will go on forever - each has their pros and cons, and in certain a/c and circumstances, you may not have a choice. An experienced pilot should have both in the bag of tricks.
I personally think in a 152, at student level, there's a lot to be said for wing down - the timing is not critical, and there's nothing wrong with landing on one wheel. Establish the wing down really early, and track the centreline; then all you have to think about is the flare/hold off.
As you get more experienced, you will establish later and later. Once you know the plane well enough to know exactly when the wheels are going to touch, the crab and straighten approach can be used effectively, but the timing is critical.. and if you straighten too early, you need to transition to wing down in the hold off anyway.
For the landing; it's been covered here - fly a bit more often, try to relax and feel it (don't fight it), and check you have a consistent seat height when you fly (that affects the picture..)
I personally think in a 152, at student level, there's a lot to be said for wing down - the timing is not critical, and there's nothing wrong with landing on one wheel. Establish the wing down really early, and track the centreline; then all you have to think about is the flare/hold off.
As you get more experienced, you will establish later and later. Once you know the plane well enough to know exactly when the wheels are going to touch, the crab and straighten approach can be used effectively, but the timing is critical.. and if you straighten too early, you need to transition to wing down in the hold off anyway.
For the landing; it's been covered here - fly a bit more often, try to relax and feel it (don't fight it), and check you have a consistent seat height when you fly (that affects the picture..)