GA Landing Technique...
I have never tried landing wings-level with a cross-wind and I would imagine the side-loads on the gears would be significant.
As a student, I was taught wing low on final, to give myself plenty of time to get it right. Now that I'm older and lazier, I am more likely to crab until I get close to the ground, then transition by the threshold. For me, close is 10-20 feet, not 1-2".
Lew747, it will come. Just takes a little time.
-- IFMU
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Originally Posted by Lew747
at the moment dont fly often enough really to give good continuity in my lessons with my instructor.
at the moment dont fly often enough really to give good continuity in my lessons with my instructor.
I recently had a layoff from flying for almost 5 months for a variety of reasons. When I got back in the air, the first couple of times I tried, I couldn't have landed a fish with a 10-foot net. For a PPL, I probably have quite a lot of hours, and so there's no excuse, right ?
Except of course there is : lack of currency, lack of being in the groove, call it what you will, it's just practice, practice, practice. Keep at it, fly as frequently as you can, and suddenly it will become a part of the flight that you look forward to instead of being wary of : and that's when it will come together - honestly !
Oh, and listen to the bloke sat next to you. Unlike the rest of us on here, he actually knows you, your abilities and how to sort this out. If he can't, and you're managing to fly frequently with him, get a new instructor.
FF
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Lew, my immediate reaction when I read your first post was that you may be leaving rounding out a bit late. A nice smooth round out followed by a flare when required will give you time to observe what is happening and it won't all happen too quickly. Relax a bit and it will come ok.
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On final approach you need to worry about two things, regardless of what technique, crab or wing down. Those things are speed and being on the centreline. Speed is the most important of the two - lack of it will kill you.
Keep the aircraft in the descending attitude until the piano keys at the far end of the runway dissappear. Then close the throttle and raise the nose into the attitude you see when the aircraft is sat on the runway at the start of the take off roll. Keep your eyes looking at the far end of the runway where those piano keys where.
As you start to see the aircraft sink to the runway apply back pressure and raise the nose attitude until you can just see the far end of the runway above the engine cowling. Hold that attitude until you touchdown. A common mistake is to get the aircraft into the correct attitude and then let the nose drop.
Don't get to worried about crosswind to early. It takes a lot of practise to be able to land the aircraft well with anything more then a handfull of knots of crosswind.
Keep the aircraft in the descending attitude until the piano keys at the far end of the runway dissappear. Then close the throttle and raise the nose into the attitude you see when the aircraft is sat on the runway at the start of the take off roll. Keep your eyes looking at the far end of the runway where those piano keys where.
As you start to see the aircraft sink to the runway apply back pressure and raise the nose attitude until you can just see the far end of the runway above the engine cowling. Hold that attitude until you touchdown. A common mistake is to get the aircraft into the correct attitude and then let the nose drop.
Don't get to worried about crosswind to early. It takes a lot of practise to be able to land the aircraft well with anything more then a handfull of knots of crosswind.
Lasiorhinus says
ER ......
Unless I am being slow of understanding here, you are saying it is a good idea to have the nosewheel on the ground before both mainwheels are firmly down.
Leaving aside the fact that the only reason to land wing down is a crosswind, strong or otherwise, I invite you to consider the words "main wheels" I.e, the wheels on which you land. The third wheel is just there so you can taxi afterwards without ploughing up the runway with the prop (nosedragger types) I remain to be convinced that it is advisable to risk an interesting wheelbarrow excursion by allowing the nose to drop before the mainwheels are both on the ground. One at a time if you like, but not after the nosewheel.......
Unless you've got a strong crosswind, then it's definitely possible to have the nosewheel second.
This is not going to happen all the time - it's not going to happen very often. When it does, the second mainwheel touches down not very long after the nosewheel...
This is not going to happen all the time - it's not going to happen very often. When it does, the second mainwheel touches down not very long after the nosewheel...
Unless I am being slow of understanding here, you are saying it is a good idea to have the nosewheel on the ground before both mainwheels are firmly down.
Leaving aside the fact that the only reason to land wing down is a crosswind, strong or otherwise, I invite you to consider the words "main wheels" I.e, the wheels on which you land. The third wheel is just there so you can taxi afterwards without ploughing up the runway with the prop (nosedragger types) I remain to be convinced that it is advisable to risk an interesting wheelbarrow excursion by allowing the nose to drop before the mainwheels are both on the ground. One at a time if you like, but not after the nosewheel.......
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When I was learning not long ago ( and I'm still learning a lot!) I was given to understand that it was a big no-no to land nose wheel first,ie a wheelbarrow landing.
Two main reasons.
1- It is not the correct attitude and can lead to poor control.
2-More importantly, esp. for the owner,itis very easy to break the nosewheel,leading to loss of prop and probably much else,and very expensive!
Lister
Two main reasons.
1- It is not the correct attitude and can lead to poor control.
2-More importantly, esp. for the owner,itis very easy to break the nosewheel,leading to loss of prop and probably much else,and very expensive!
Lister
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Lister, I don't think anyone is suggesting landing nose wheel first. That'd be insane! (and expensive!)
My question is how strong a cross wind would you need to warrant dropping the nose before the down-wind main gear? Surely by the time you've lost enough speed to hold the nose up, the lift generated by the wings is low enough and thus the up-wind gear is firmly enough planted so that you can drop the down-wind wing first before running out of elevator authority for holding the nose up?
My question is how strong a cross wind would you need to warrant dropping the nose before the down-wind main gear? Surely by the time you've lost enough speed to hold the nose up, the lift generated by the wings is low enough and thus the up-wind gear is firmly enough planted so that you can drop the down-wind wing first before running out of elevator authority for holding the nose up?
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I can't believe this wing down vs crabs technique and make your choice discussion.
All cross wind landings are crab followed by wing down. The only difference is when you choose to transition from crab to wing down, 5 miles out, 1 mile out 300' or at roundout. I prefer roundout because it is less uncomfortable and landing on one wheel and trying to hold the other two up in 25kts of crosswind is soooo sweet.
All cross wind landings are crab followed by wing down. The only difference is when you choose to transition from crab to wing down, 5 miles out, 1 mile out 300' or at roundout. I prefer roundout because it is less uncomfortable and landing on one wheel and trying to hold the other two up in 25kts of crosswind is soooo sweet.
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I desperately try and not read these discussions but it is like driving down the M25 and not looking at a thousand car wreck on the other side.
Some of the advice being given here will guarantee you never learn to land properly ...with or without a X/wind.
Some of the advice being given here will guarantee you never learn to land properly ...with or without a X/wind.
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I'm more interested in my own side of the road !
I guess you never look at traffic wrecks while driving then?
Anyhow with regard to this discussion on how to land I would strongly advise anyone who is having problems with their landings to find an instructor who understands how to teach this subject.
The internet is great but one will get some rather weird advice on these forums when it comes to something as important as how to land an airplane.
So like I said previously, reading this thread on how to land is like looking at a wreck on a motorway.
I guess you never look at traffic wrecks while driving then?
Anyhow with regard to this discussion on how to land I would strongly advise anyone who is having problems with their landings to find an instructor who understands how to teach this subject.
The internet is great but one will get some rather weird advice on these forums when it comes to something as important as how to land an airplane.
So like I said previously, reading this thread on how to land is like looking at a wreck on a motorway.
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Well said G-EMMA
I find reading these forums makes me ask questions of my own flying, what would I do differently etc. It helps me keep on top of everything, always thinking one step ahead.
I find reading these forums makes me ask questions of my own flying, what would I do differently etc. It helps me keep on top of everything, always thinking one step ahead.
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G-EMMA the biggest problem people have when learning to land an airplane is getting the proper visual clues.
Somehow somewhere in the training industry someone decided that you should look far, far ahead at the far end of the runway to judge when to start to change your attitude from your approach attitude to the flare to fly parallel to the runway to allow speed to decay and thus the lift to decay resulting in the airplane settling on to the runway.
Looking to far ahead will result in you not being able to see the change in height as the airplane settles toward the runway.....thus they just stare into space and wait for runway contact....
....and you have sloppy landings....this is even more true when it comes to seeing sideways drift.
I know that my advice will be scoffed at and quite frankly it does not really matter to me as I don't have any problems knowing where to look and how to judge the position of the airplane in relation to the runway either height wise or sideways drift wise.
Somehow somewhere in the training industry someone decided that you should look far, far ahead at the far end of the runway to judge when to start to change your attitude from your approach attitude to the flare to fly parallel to the runway to allow speed to decay and thus the lift to decay resulting in the airplane settling on to the runway.
Looking to far ahead will result in you not being able to see the change in height as the airplane settles toward the runway.....thus they just stare into space and wait for runway contact....
....and you have sloppy landings....this is even more true when it comes to seeing sideways drift.
I know that my advice will be scoffed at and quite frankly it does not really matter to me as I don't have any problems knowing where to look and how to judge the position of the airplane in relation to the runway either height wise or sideways drift wise.
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Staring with tunnel vision at the end of runways never did me any good either, I think it's a case of the right "picture" and peripheral vision works downwards as well as sideways.
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A few years ago I wrote an article describing how to judge height and where to look during each phase of the landing.
I no longer have it as a virus sodomized my computer and I lost most of my files....it must be here in the old threads somewhere....but I'm to lazy to look for it.
I no longer have it as a virus sodomized my computer and I lost most of my files....it must be here in the old threads somewhere....but I'm to lazy to look for it.
ChucK, just out of interest....
When you are teaching ab initio on conventional gear, which type of landing do you teach first, wheeler or three point, and why?
Inquiring minds....
When you are teaching ab initio on conventional gear, which type of landing do you teach first, wheeler or three point, and why?
Inquiring minds....
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ChucK, just out of interest....
When you are teaching ab initio on conventional gear, which type of landing do you teach first, wheeler or three point, and why?
Inquiring minds....
Piper C....
Excellent question and here is my answer.
The first thing I teach is ground handling starting with taxiing and loss of control while taxiing.
Next I teach high speed runs down the runway until they are comfortable controlling direction with the tail in the air.
Then we start flying and we do wheel landings for the simple reason they already know how to stall land in nose wheel airplanes.
Teaching wheel landings first serves several purposes, the most important being learning how to flare very close to the runway rather that twenty feet above it as they are used to.
Another reason is the wheel landing gives one the best control of the machine in gusty winds and X/winds......so I make sure they are comfortable with wheel landings before we do three point which they already know how to do.
Hope that answers your questions and feel free to ask more.
When you are teaching ab initio on conventional gear, which type of landing do you teach first, wheeler or three point, and why?
Inquiring minds....
Piper C....
Excellent question and here is my answer.
The first thing I teach is ground handling starting with taxiing and loss of control while taxiing.
Next I teach high speed runs down the runway until they are comfortable controlling direction with the tail in the air.
Then we start flying and we do wheel landings for the simple reason they already know how to stall land in nose wheel airplanes.
Teaching wheel landings first serves several purposes, the most important being learning how to flare very close to the runway rather that twenty feet above it as they are used to.
Another reason is the wheel landing gives one the best control of the machine in gusty winds and X/winds......so I make sure they are comfortable with wheel landings before we do three point which they already know how to do.
Hope that answers your questions and feel free to ask more.
Thank you Chuck
That has given me some good hints. My problem is that I am teaching a mixture of ab initios who have never flown at all; PPLs who have only flown nosewheel, and one very experienced weight shift pilot who has never flown three axis a/c, and is used to steering on the ground by pushing right foot to go left. The PPL guys are the hardest to get a good landing out of.......Mostly it seems to be flare and then let it fall in an untidy heap
Your method seems entirely locical, and I like the idea of the high speed runs. For info, this is microlight flying on a Rans 6S-ES, which I have fallen in love with. We haven't had it very long, but already we are doing more hours on it than on our two DR 400 a/c. Grass runway, nice and wide, even if it could do with cutting a bit more often.
That has given me some good hints. My problem is that I am teaching a mixture of ab initios who have never flown at all; PPLs who have only flown nosewheel, and one very experienced weight shift pilot who has never flown three axis a/c, and is used to steering on the ground by pushing right foot to go left. The PPL guys are the hardest to get a good landing out of.......Mostly it seems to be flare and then let it fall in an untidy heap
Your method seems entirely locical, and I like the idea of the high speed runs. For info, this is microlight flying on a Rans 6S-ES, which I have fallen in love with. We haven't had it very long, but already we are doing more hours on it than on our two DR 400 a/c. Grass runway, nice and wide, even if it could do with cutting a bit more often.