incident at EMA (midair over Leicestershire)

[soay]

Originally Posted by blue up

My day job involves flying 767s, so I'm familiar with the fantastic TCAS that would probably have saved these lives had they been able to carry the $1000,000 / 10kg of kit that they'd need to bring it up to 767 level.

Diamond charge $13,000 for the Avidyne (nee Ryan) TAS 600, which weighs 7.7kg. Better value than an ADF at $10,700 and 4kg, but still too expensive for general use. However, any aeroplane fitted with TCAS should pick up my transponder, even if I don't see them, so I'm all for them.

[S-Works]

I have a little widget that plugs into my Garmin 496 that I am testing at the moment that works very well. Around a grand including the Garmin cable and it shows the target on the 496 moving map display.

The problem in this situation is who would have/should have carried this? The luscombe with limited space and electrical system or the Pac?

[silverelise]

all the evidence suggests "see and avoid" doesnt work - or at best works poorly.

I guess that is because "all the evidence" is AAIB reports showing where it hasn't worked. No one logs all the occurences where it has worked. So we just don't know how well it works because we only have the failure statistics not the success ones. Am I making any sense?

[yawningdog]

the typical landing light will only last around 50hrs

Really? I hope that this isn't the case as I fly with the landing light on most of the time. If motorcycles do, then why not aircraft?

[robin]

Perfect sense....

And I agree with Pudnucker. There are lots of nasty narrow corridors which VFR traffic, including especially microlights and permit aircraft are being squeezed into ever closer proximity.

In the dim mists of my youth I read the story by Philip Wills about the battel to preserve the ability to glide from Dunstable as the needs of Luton's traffic became greater.

If I recall correctly, the great and the good from NATS (or whoever) and the CAA plugged on and on about protecting the safe passage of the travelling public.

It was only when Philip Wills said - then who will take responsibilty for the pilots in the uncontrolled airspace that a compromise was reached.

We are getting back to this situation. The commercial airlines want to expand their activities and have persuaded the Govt it is a good idea. Whole areas of airspace are being extended - Coventry has a larger area than Gatwick for many fewer movements. So permit a/c microlights and those unable to equip with the latest gizmos are kept out of new airspace. Mode S will add another twist to this.

As a result there will be many owners and operators being put at greater risk by airspace designers, who are throwing the responsibility back on the pilots.

I hope that this incident (and the one at Brookman's Park) some years ago will act as a wake-up call to NATS and the CAA to ensure that designs allow reasonably-sized corridors - not like the Stansted Gap, Brize/Lyneham/Fairford gap which are hazardous to health

[Mercenary Pilot]

...........................

Rescuers said later that two light aircraft were flying in formation from an airfield in the north of England.


One of the pair, a Luscombe Model H, collided with a third aircraft, a Pacific 750, which had taken off from another airfield, possibly nearby Tatenhill.


The Pacific lost half of its undercarriage in the collision and sent out an immediate Mayday message as it made its way towards East Midlands Airport for an emergency landing.

[S-Works]

So where is the 3rd aircraft?

[soay]

Originally Posted by silrerelise

I guess that is because "all the evidence" is AAIB reports showing where it hasn't worked. No one logs all the occurences where it has worked. So we just don't know how well it works because we only have the failure statistics not the success ones. Am I making any sense?

Consider two aircraft approaching each other at 120kts each, when the visibility is 6km. The time from the earliest possible sighting to the moment of impact is 50 seconds. We're all taught that the ones that are going to hit you are the hardest to spot, so the distance is likely to be a lot less before the "Mk. 1 eyeball" can identify the danger in the clag. Suppose it took 20 seconds to do a scan, followed by a 10 second VOR position check, and the approaching aircraft was visible at the end, rather than the beginning of the next scan. Did your instinctive reaction, finely honed by regular practice save you, or had the other pilot finished reprogramming his flight plan in time to have already taken avoiding action?

The big sky theory has got to explain why mid-airs are so rare, but stacking the odds with TCAS still appeals.

[Fuji Abound]

Soay

Correct - and you might also want to add in the reaction time between seeing the aircraft and doing somehting about it.

It is not hearsay - the FAA have conducted at least two studies to my knowledge.

I can confirm the PCAS units work very well (this maybe what Bose was referring to linking it to a 496) albeit as with any detection system they rely on the other aircraft having a transponder with mode S capability or better.

[slip and turn]

It's a while since I used to read light aircraft incident reports regularly, but this old head instantly thought of at least two other mid-airs in VMC within 100 miles in just the South East corner of the country ... a classic climbing and descending at Redhill (one a Cherokee I think), and two Robins over Kent (one on a training sortie out of Rochester / one routing cross channel from Ockham way). There have surely been others in other parts of the country over the past decade or two, and I am not sure we can still call it a "rare" or "unusual" occurrence, or express surprise when it happens.

We all know that 'looking out' and 'scanning' is mandatory but let's face it, at typical 200 to 250 kt closing speeds in 2007, and with typical 'eyes in' workloads of single pilot navigation and instrument training, and varying standards of Class II sight, what we are really gambling our lives on when eyes are in, is simple laws of probability based on unknown traffic densities unless at least RIS has been obtained.

Maybe it is indeed time to ensure that RIS is mandatory in some cramped corners i.e. upgrade the airspace, rather than to be allowed to continue to fool ourselves that like old times we can live without it ...

I think pilots deep down do know the risk we take is there and could be offset with investment, but our thoughts now are of course with the families of the two people who died.

[Sam-MAN]

Hello.

Does anyone know who the aircraft that crashed belonged to? Flying school?

I find it a little strange that KAY (landed aircraft) was on a pleasure flight around that area. From what I'm aware its rare for it to move out of the Cark area, unless going for maintenance. Thankfully the individuals in KAY are ok, could of been a lot worse as it is licensed to carry up to 18 people believe it or not.

Sam

[Mercenary Pilot]

So where is the 3rd aircraft?

At a guess I would say its probably in a hangar somewhere while the owner is being interviewed by the AAIB. I took an interest in this because I thought it may have been someone i knew. However this doesn't appear to be the case so my thoughts are with the friends and family of those who were involved.

Re TCAS: I saw a system built into the Garmin 1000 which is fantastic but it will only work when everybody is Mode S equipped. Its very similar to a TCAS but doesn't give "Resolutions" only "Cautions" and a display of local traffic.

[almost professional]

Robin
Coventry have no controlled airspace-just a proposal that is very unlikely to come to fruition, certainly in its present form
also micro lights/permit A/C are not banned from controlled airspace, well not class D anyway-while it may be difficult to gain access/transit of some at some time most is available-try asking! I have refused access no more than 2/3 times in the last 10 years-normally done because the radio is unreadable
Helicraig-thanks for the pat on the back-was fraught for a moment or two but believe it or not most controllers will do what they can for the 'little guy' !

[robin]

Almost Professional

Apologies for my error. It is true that Class D does not necessarily mean that light GA is barred, but AOPA are certainly interested enough to ask to hear of any refusals.

At my local 'international' airport, still awaiting confirmation that their Class D application will go ahead, they are "instructing" GA to go down specific routes
so as not to inconvenience the local ChavAir services.

When Mode S Phase 2/3 comes into effect a stroke of the pen would make areas of Class D a designated mandatory transponder zone. There are mutterings that the area below the 2500' limit around London may also be one such area.

If so, how do the light GA get around the area, except by being pushed into ever smaller areas of airspace and honeypots, thereby increasing the risk.

My point (badly expressed) is that it feels as though the technical solutions seem to be the only game in town, but that a radical look at airspace design would bring more benefit at lesser cost.

[DX Wombat]

We were operating around the shawbury zone which is approx 20nm from the area and must have experienced the same visibility as we had.

Not necessarily. Earlier this year I flew to Colerne. Whilst I was there I was asked where I had flown in from and upon telling the gentleman concerned that it was EGBO, I was asked if I had seen the latest Met forecast which had just arrived. I said "no" and was then informed that there were snow showers around Shawbury. I finished my coffee quickly and set off back to EGBO. The same cloud which had caused me problems on the way down was still lurking around the hills south of Gloucester so a quick, preplanned (just in case) diversion to the M5 then follow it along to EGBJ before turning overhead and heading home brought me into good visibility with little cloud. The weather at EGBO was still good, if a little cooler than when I set off but there was definitely NO snow nor had any been seen whilst I was away. EGOS is approximately the same distance from EGBO as it is from Blithfield.

[Pudnucker]

Interesting thoughts. I'm just saving up for the Zaon PCAS system and will upgrade my Garmin 296 for a 496 so I can see traffic on the screen. I know it will only show those squawking mode C but every bit of help is useful in my opinion.

Insterestingly at a recent CAA safety evening, I questioned the speaker (CAA chap - well known bloke in General Aviation this month) who was going on about a new Exeter Class D zone (and others). He said that if any VFR pilot gets a refusal to enter a zone we should MOR (report) it to the CAA. He said that CAS should not be an exclusion to VFR traffic (all well and good and all with a pair of rose tinted spectacles IMO).

[fireflybob]

Bob, the emergency avoiding turn has been in my syllabus since 1982. In this case it seems the other aircraft came from below so an a turn may not have been of much use

llanfairpg, when you say "my" syllabus is that your personal one? Maybe my AOPA syllabus needing an update but the one I have does not mention emergency avoiding action.

[Contacttower]

llanfairpg, when you say "my" syllabus is that your personal one? Maybe my AOPA syllabus needing an update but the one I have does not mention emergency avoiding action.

I was never taught avoiding turns in the PPL as such...I was told that steep turns were useful for avoiding aircraft...but with the emphasis on height control and co-ordination they were not taught as an avoiding manoeuvre. I was briefly taught avoiding turns as an RAF cadet...roll on about 80 degrees angle of bank instantly and keep a bit of back pressure to stop excessive height loss.

[Pudnucker]

According to the guys at transair the Zaon unit works with C and S. Not sure if it displays non height related A.

[sqanze]

staffs crash site

on my way home i have just driven past admaston crash site 1545 hrs. in fading light.
crashed aircraft is still in open grass field about 2/300 metres from farm house and out buildings.
6 police cars at farm and several 'civiy' cars also parked. Police incident mobile in farm yard and some sort of hgv flatbed type vehicle parked at field gate nearest to crashed aircraft.
the wreckage seems all in one place and you can make out the outline of the craft. however from a distance looks burnt out???
Prayers and thoughts for the families.