incident at EMA (midair over Leicestershire)

[almost professional]

sorry Robin-get bit prickly at suggestion that ATCO's sole purpose in life is to keep GA out of controlled airspace!
having seen what is now involved in getting any airspace application approved, and the hoops that must be jumped through when you have it then any further major expansion unlikely
on a personal note can not see why mandatory carriage of XPDR is needed, but then so far down food chain not likely to listen to me! seems to be the favourite flavour of the month, why you need to make a known traffic environment out of class G is beyond me
Pudnucker-you may be interested to now that we are required to log all transits, deviations and refusals of our class D, data passed to CAA

[2close]

Be careful if you are going to practice emergency avoiding action turns - you could overstress the airframe on your aged PA28 / C172 as well as inducing an unwanted upchuck from your passengers.

IMHO, I suggest that you go to an aerobatic trainer to be shown how to do them properly and in an aircraft suitably certificated. Periodically repeat the exercise to keep your skills up.

In the hopefully unlikely event you have to do one for real, overstressing the airframe should and will be the last thing on your mind but I'd be reticent to risk damaging your pride and joy with practice emergency turns until you've become proficient.

[Fuji Abound]

According to the guys at transair the Zaon unit works with C and S. Not sure if it displays non height related A.

Yes. I use mine on every flight and can confirm that is so.

Once you have one you will be amazed on how many aircraft it "spots" that you dont.

Subject to its limitation regarding non transponding aircraft and given the low cost it is a very worth while safety investment in my mind.

In fact I dont fly without one or full TCAS now.

Moreover the alert function gives you enough time to prevent a collision.

[Jetscream 32]

Utterly amazes me.......... so many half wit replies and suggestions
Some of you poor sky gods would be useless without your navaids, tcas, etc - Maybe this is just a really rare, really unfortunate case of LOW WINTER SUN and BLIND SPOTS....!
Im lucky to still be here, after a flight 10 years ago that nearly ended up with me being impalled by the 2 seat Jaguar from Boscombe Down.
Flying my Super Cub from Yeovil back to Bournemouth, straight and level talking and squawking to Yeovilton - luckily every couple of mins since i have been aviating i roll my wings in a little waggle effect to see if anyone is coming at me from right angles inc high or low both sides - that day it saved my life - just....!!! Closing fast along the right leading edge absolute 90 degrees to my direction is a fast jet - me 80kts - him 360kts - $ollocks this is going to be close - i know, i will show him a plan view of the Super Cub and he will pull right and climb - no sweat me thinks...!!
Now being a gliding instructor and knowing how to teach people to tickle weak thermals i know how to haul an a/c around - but on this instance to no avail - ok time for another roll reversal this is getting uncomfortable...... to no avail... staring on recover to wings level just about to impact i pushed very hard and left......
The noise, fear and andrelin i will never lose - and it is as vivid as the day it happened... - i manage to recover the aircraft without overstressing it, and then see the Jag pulling hard right to come back around - he came past higher and waggled his wings and i did also - no words, nothing but we both knew it was a close call - I called yeovilton to say thanks for telling me about the jag - they said "What Jag" - great - but i knew there was only 1 raspberry ripple jag - so thought i would call when i got back to HH.
Called on the phone to Boscombe ops and asked if the jag was back - it was just on finals - the instructor called me within 30 mins - i answered the phone and an amercan accent came down the line - "that was a nice Super Cub you got there....... That was very close and i sincerely apologise he said.. we were both head down planning the recovery to Boscombe and only saw you the split second your starboard wing went under our port..
Sorry bought that.........
He apologised, i learnt about flying from that - and lookout is the thing that should save you from rare events like this thread.....
condolences to families involved - but heads up not down...........!!

clearly AAIB will do its stuff - but looks on the outside to be just a terribly rare case of wrong place, wrong time....... sad but part of life..

[2close]

I suppose I should take this opportunity to thank the pilot of the blue JP (I think it was a JP - it happened that fast) who nearly removed my left wing over Hanningfield Reservoir a couple of months back (I could post the date / time) in his screaming climb west to east straight into the clouds 500' above me. If he didn't see me, bad drills - pilots of faster a/c need to keep both eyes on the game all the time when manouevring; if he did see me (and I can't see how he could have failed to see the plan profile of the a/c silhouetted against the sky if he'd been looking where he was going) but thought it would be a good laugh to frighten the living daylights out of me and my student then he qualifies for the Pillock of the Year 2007.

Next time something like that happens I will file an Airprox - maybe I should have done so this time. It's happened to me that many times I'm past caring whether it gets someone into a world of crap!! Should we file Airproxes every time we have a near miss?

BTW, has anyone else noticed how many aircraft in the corridor between Luton / Stansted CTA and London CTR seem to have no concept of the right hand priority rule? Is this because they're glued to the GPS or BNN / LAM VOR indications or is it simply that they have no idea of the priority rule?

[Cuillin]

2nd aircraft

G-AKUI

Luscombe 8E


ref http://www.europeanluscombes.org.uk/...opic.php?t=256

[G-CPTN]

Rescuers said later that two light aircraft were flying in formation from an airfield in the north of England.
One of the pair, a Luscombe Model H, collided with a third aircraft, a Pacific 750, which had taken off from another airfield, possibly nearby Tatenhill.

The above doesn't concur with:-

a Luscombe Silvaire . . . police said, and had taken off from a farm in Abbots Bromley, Staffordshire,

and:-

in the other plane, a Pacific Aerospace 350 XL.
"We were flying from Cark, near Flookburgh, to Cranfield in Bedfordshire.

So a low-wing aircraft thought to be travelling roughly north to south at a reported 1800 ft contacts a high-wing aircraft two miles (almost due) west of its base airfield* from which it is thought to have taken off. Any turn from the take-off runway heading to the wreckage position would involve banking to starboard.^ The low-wing aircraft sustains damage to the port undercarriage.
*no allowance made for drift of the stricken aircraft after the collision.
^reducing visibility above to the north.

Blind spots?

Aerial view:- http://wikimapia.org/#lat=52.812412&...14&l=0&m=h&v=1

Edited to add:- "G-AKUI (cn 2464) Owned by David Sims of Stoke, Yeatsall Farm, Abbots Bromley, Staffs, UK - England" (following the above disclosure of the reg number)

[Roffa]

Yes. I use mine on every flight and can confirm that is so.

Once you have one you will be amazed on how many aircraft it "spots" that you dont.

Subject to its limitation regarding non transponding aircraft and given the low cost it is a very worth while safety investment in my mind.

In fact I dont fly without one or full TCAS now.

Moreover the alert function gives you enough time to prevent a collision.

Many of the A only ones you see probably have C fitted but have, for somewhat spurious reasons, willfully chosen to switch the C off. A questionable attitude to flight safety at best.

[bjornhall]

Re fanciful emergency turns and aerobatics training in spam cans: How many mid airs are caused by failing to avoid a plane you have spotted, and how many are caused by the aircraft failing to see each other/the sky being too small.

[G-CPTN]

Tatenhill Airfield is 5.5 miles due east of Yeatsall Farm Airstrip:- http://wikimapia.org/#lat=52.818507&...17&l=0&m=h&v=1
http://wikimapia.org/#lat=52.815421&...13&l=0&m=h&v=1

[dublinpilot]

For those of you who use PocketFMS and also use a Zaon pcas device or FLARM, you'll be glad to know that the next version of PFMS will allow you to display the 'targets' from these devices on the PFMS moving map.



dp

[767bill]

More controllers better than more gadgetry in a/c

In my opinion, for what its worth, the LARS and ATC of the larger airports e.g. class D do an excellent job. Unfortunately, due to their limited resources they cannot always give a zone transit or RIS and sometimes only a limited FIS.
Many times when I have received a RIS or just a FIS this has helped me see aircraft in the vicinity that would have been hard to see otherwise e.g helicopters (faster moving a/c are sometimes easier to spot than slower helicopters or microlights, which may remain closer to you for longer).
I think a few more controllers available to assist GA light aircraft would be a better use of resources than all a/c having mode S or TCAS. To the guys and girls at LARS and at various airports like Luton and Farnborough keep up the good service.

[englishal]

To be honest, I'd support madatory Mode S transponders for all aeroplanes (& gliders) as long as we get something in return - TIS / ADS-B or whatever it is called. They can keep LARS then.....

When I rent in the USA , I always rent an aeroplane with TIS. It is crazy how many targets the eye fails to spot, even with a good lookout. TIS draws your attention and you THEN spot the traffic - it is a good thing.

Of course the chance of a collision is very small, but IF it happens, the chance of being killed is almost 100%. The people in the second aeroplane were very lucky.


I am going to buy one of the gizmo's Bose is on about to plug into my 496 in the mean time....

[fireflybob]

Be careful if you are going to practice emergency avoiding action turns - you could overstress the airframe on your aged PA28 / C172 as well as inducing an unwanted upchuck from your passengers.

2close, well of course emergency turns should be taught by a flying instructor who knows the ins and outs of same - this means, amongst other things, that you must be below the max maneuvring speed and in the Utility Category (no rear pax permitted). So long as you take sensible precautions I would suggest that emergency avoiding turns can be safely practised in your average training a/c.

It goes without saying that if you had to do a REAL emergency avoiding action that momentary overstress is preferable to having a mid air collision.

[Jetscream 32]

G-CPTN - blind spots = flying directly into sun

2close - feel for you - altho at least mine was a consumate professional that held his hand up - it was interesting that the CAA were onto me like a bat out of hell trying to tell me to file air prox etc - but they fail to understand that sometimes we we need to carry moments like that for ourselves and only occasionaly let it out -

[BackPacker]

So long as you take sensible precautions I would suggest that emergency avoiding turns can be safely practised in your average training a/c.

Mmmm. I don't know. I think if an emergency avoidance is necessary, then you don't necessarily roll into a steep turn. Instead, it'll be more of a reflex depending on the exact angle with which the other aircraft is closing. Compare it with playing soccer or baseball. Somebody shoots a ball at you and you want to avoid. There is no standard reaction. Instead, you watch the ball, figure out its trajectory and then duck, jump or twist your body to avoid, all in a split second. I think it works the same way in an aircraft. So you either pull into a steep climb, push over into a negative-g pushover or roll the aircraft over in some direction which you think might keep you clear, in a reflex. And you might not stop at 80 degrees, or whatever the limits of "utility category" are.

In any of these scenarios you might end up in an unusual attitude (to put it mildly). You might be pointing straight up and losing airspeed fast, or be inverted. The recovery you need from that is squarely in the aerobatic realm. To practice that safely needs an aerobatics capable aircraft capable of something like -3 to +6 g and temporarily inverted flight. Plus an instructor who knows a bit about aeros, wing root bending effect and the proper way to recover from unusual attitudes.

[ATCO Fred]

Atco/Chillie,

Probably not the right thread to make the point ref more controlled airspace = more chance of VFR nearmisses/collisions.. But whow you can call that comment utter tosh is beyond me. In my humble opinion - more CAS = less class G = more VFR a/c trying to use a smaller parcel of airspace. For example, 2 weeks ago I was in the "Popham Gap". Asked for a RIS then a FIS - both unavailable due to controller workload but was warned that he had 25 a/c on his scope and to keep a bloody good eye out. Wonderful - now how do you justify my comment as being utter tosh...?

Another time asking for a zone transit across a well known lump of class D on the south coast - again none available due to controller workload. All VFR traffic routed around - again lots of VFR a/c in very small bits of airspace. Can you again justify this?

Pudnucker

During my Career I have been a safety adviser to Airspace Change Proposals, advisor to and member of the UK Airprox Board and served in the MOD in Aviation Safety.

Any proposal to increase the amount of CAS is stringently staffed with all operators/airspace users having input into the process. Obviously, the proposer always presents the 'Rolls Royce' solution first off and this is negotiated down to a more workable solution as part of the process. When it is clear that a potential bottleneck will occur it is often a pre-condition of the airspace change that a crossing service is made available for all airspace users.

Taking into consideration ALL of the changes to airspace that have taken place during the aviation explosion of the past 10 years we are still a long way off creating significantly greater 'choke points' than those that already occur. Personally, you wouldn't catch me flying between Booker and Princess Risborough without a team of Owls with me

Accordingly more Class D does not equal mid air collisions....it could be one of a number of factors but is only ever going to be contributory not causal.

Dipping my toe into the world of Safety Management, the potential for a mid-air collision is reduced by mitigating the risk by introducing layers of safety. Now these layers of safety could be receiving a radar service, having TCAS installed, legislation mandating the carriage of transponders or something as simple as not flying in marginal weather conditions. But, the very, very last layer of safety is see and avoid. If you fly with just that one layer of safety and that layer is marginalized by other factors then you are significantly increasing your chances of a mid air and all this has very little to do with the proliferation of CAS.

I didn’t mean to be antagonistic, but people have got to be realistic about airspace expansion. BUT, I share you frustration with regard to the lack of services available to GA, but 'who pays for LARS' is a debate not for this forum and controllers are not a surplus commodity these days.

[Jetscream 32]

if your in class g - concentrate on lookout - and by all means listen to the radio to gain an overview / mental picture of whats going on, but dont add to the problem by jammin ght frequency with utter twoddle to an unlicensed airfield, keep it simple, clear and to the point - but bottom line - heads up - lookout, keep the fun of flying dont destroy it with zillions of pointless proposals that only fit a minority - think of all the other users that use the airspace and are due equal safety in unrestricted airspace - 1 rule is all that is needed - see and avoid....!

[kiwi chick]

A perfect example of blind spots in low-wings is highlighted here, in a mid-air collision between two PA-28's:

PA28 - Blind Spot


Very very sad for all those concerned, but it certainly makes interesting reading and I have sure learnt from it.

[Rod1]

The strip at Abbots Bromley is at 350 ft, and the collision happened at 1800 ft.

Most aircraft of the type involved (I am not commenting on this specific example) use the armstrong start method and have no electrical systems. This, and the fact that the aircraft was probably only 90 sec or so from leaving the ground, make most of the comments about radar and radio of little relevance.

If the newer aircraft had been fitted with full TCAS it would have been unable to detect most of the traffic likely to be at 1800 ft in that area. There is no practical solution to allow a Xpder to be fitted to an aircraft with no electrical system at this time (the CAA acknowledge this). The busy gilding site at Cross Hays and the strips in the area containing mostly micros and permit types which are mostly not Xpder equipped.

25% of GA are micros, another 15% are permit types and about 20% are gliders. This does not take into account the paramotors, which outnumber the whole of GA. The vast majority of the above will not show up on TCAS. I have a plea to all the people with “electronic collision avoidance solutions”, on behalf of the majority of flying machines you may come into contact with, please do not give up on your lookout. I know it is popular to criticize see and avoid, but it is THE ONLY GAME IN TOWN, and the less we try to make it work, the more it will kill us.

Rod1
(with radio and Xpder)