incident at EMA (midair over Leicestershire)

[S-Works]

the big sky theory works better in IMC because the reality is that very few people actually fly outside of controlled airspace in IMC. The controlled airspace traffic is separated.

[soay]

Originally Posted by LateFinals

The point I'm making is not to name & shame but to remind us all that if you are going into airspace, controlled or not where there are ATC's operating for heavens sake talk to them. The more traffic information we all have the better.

Hear, hear! I don't know if those who think the "Mk. 1 eyeball" alone is adequate are flying slow aeroplanes, but simple arithmetic makes that unlikely at 120 kts or faster. It's not much use for a high wing climbing into the path of a low wing either. The big sky is the only thing keeping most aircraft apart, although the technology is available to improve the odds, if there wasn't so much resistance to it.

[DFC]

If poor visibility was a factor then I hope that the investigation has a look at;

The ICAO requirement that lower visibilities down to 1500m for VFR in class G are only permitted when the probability of encountering another aircraft is low.

There is very little of the Class G over England South of Manchester that one can claim the probability of encountering another aircraft is low.

Regards,

DFC

[fireflybob]

Steep Turns (I believe they are called "Advanced" Turns now!) are in the PPL Syllabus but Emergency Avoiding Action turns are not. The latter are trained in the UK military and, as I have said on other threads previously, I think they should be included in the PPL syllabus.

I honestly do not think we will ever completely eliminate the risk of a midair collision. When I trained at Hamble in 1969 two cadets were killed in a midair in the circuit (one joining and another already in). I also recall a Varsity (I think) in the Cambridge area colliding with a Cessna 150 in the Cambridge area in the early 1960s.

Of course visibility is a factor but like many accidents I suspect the Swiss Cheese model will prevail - when all the holes line up you get an accident - its never down to one thing only.

RIP and condolences to all who know those who tragically died.

[HeliCraig]

Just going back to the asking for a RIS but getting a FIS point made earlier (although if one of the a/c involved was taking off it does seem to make it a little redundant)....

... I flew the corridor described twice this weekend. On Saturday I asked for, and was given a very helpful RIS by EMA; on Sunday I asked for RIS - was offered "FIS plus a little bit" (controllers words). I was grateful for that alone and made it known so; the controller offered some conflicting traffic information while I was a Measham. I just assumed he was too busy to provide every piece of GA with RIS; I get home to find out he was dealing with this mayday and resultant closure of EMA. I'm surprised he managed to give me any traffic info! First rate job, thank you very much to the controller(s) involved.

Last time I flew there, I asked and was given. Always ask; the worst that can happen is they are unable and you get FIS - but always be grateful for that. If you NEED a RIS then are the conditions really suitable for VFR? (Flying rotary not many of us have an IR, so little flight in IMC!)

Anyway back to the topic....

[Flying Binghi]

the technology is available to improve the odds, if there wasn't so much resistance to it.

Soay, there's the little matter of cost. Of course you could mandate it and have only the wealthy fly. Less aircraft... less risk... problem solved.

[soay]

Originally Posted by Flying Binghi

Soay, there's the little matter of cost. Of course you could mandate it and have only the wealthy fly. Less aircraft... less risk... problem solved.

Even mode C transponders would help, especially if they were switched on! How often, when you're getting a RIS do you hear "altitude unknown"?

[Phil Space]

There is a blue Luscombe based at Abbots Bromley airstrip.
latest here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/7147344.stm
Air crash deaths inquiry begins
Police at crash site
Air crash investigators are examining a site in the Midlands where two people were killed in a collision involving two light aircraft.
One of the dead is Peter Leigh, 60, of Baldwin's Gate, Staffordshire, BBC Radio Stoke has learned.
The plane crashed into a field near Blithfield Reservoir in Staffordshire on Sunday.
The other aircraft landed at East Midlands Airport where three people on board scrambled to safety.
Cumbria Police officer Sgt Rupert Johnston was among those to survive.
He said: "We were flying from Cark, near Flookburgh, to Cranfield in Bedfordshire.
"At around midday, as we were flying over the Midlands, we were hit by what we now know was another plane."
He added: "My thoughts are with the families of the two who died.
"We were on a pre-arranged trip with my son James, aged 10, and my friend the pilot Mike Carruthers, who is also from Cumbria."
The Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB) is leading the crash examinations.
Tim Atkinson, of the AAIB, said a detailed technical examination of the scene would take place on Monday. He said it was too early to say exactly what had caused the collision. Weather conditions were clear and visibility was fine.
"Aircraft do collide," said Mr Atkinson. "Mid-air collisions are mercifully very rare, a great deal of general aviation is done on the principle that the pilot keeps a good look-out."
He also confirmed the planes were on private leisure flights and neither was being directed by air traffic control.
Staffordshire Police said they were called to the field off Lea Lane in Admaston where the plane, a two-seater Luscombe Silvaire, came down, about 25 miles away from East Midlands Airport.

[rogcal]

Not being one who usually posts to threads of this nature, I'll make an exception on this occassion and just to ask, how many of you fly with landing lights on (as well as strobes if you've got them), in these "claggy" conditions?

I went up yesterday for a quick bimble around 1300 hrs mainly to give the old girl an airing and was soon in the poor viz that appears to have been affecting a large area of England.

On went the landing light without a seconds thought!

I suspect many will put landing lights it on in these conditions when in the circuit and or joining but what about en route as well?

OK, so the typical landing light will only last around 50hrs if you're lucky and those on a tight budget may want to prolong it's life by utilising it very rarely but is it worth it when it could save your skin one day.

Only when the AAIB have published the full report into yesterday's tragic incident, will we know all the facts and it may well be that one of the aircraft involved was not equipped with landing lights but surely if you've got them, it makes sense to use them!

[wsmempson]

Personally, I nearly always fly with the landing light on, as it seems to increase my chances of being seen exponentially.

The only exception is when landing at night, oddly enough, as it leads my eyes to a spot directly in front of the a/c, rather that looking down the runway and leads to poor landings!

Perhaps time to call it something other than a "landing light"?

[Fuji Abound]

I have no idea what happened and so dont want to comment other than to say it is of course sad news.

In general however I do feel it is worth reiterating that all the evidence suggests "see and avoid" doesnt work - or at best works poorly. It is one of those myths that nearly everyone believes in so we just accept it must be so.

Secondly if you can it re- enforces the need to get high en route. Yesterday at FL50 the viz was unlimited giving you the very best chance to see another aircraft. Moreover looking down it was reasonably easy to spot other aircraft whereas in the clag it would have been almost impossible.

Is it just me or do these sort of weather days seem to be a lot more common that twenty years ago?

[wet wet wet]

Just to add to the debate I was flying north to south over the Midlands yesterday lunchtime. Rather than do the "rat run" between BHX and EMA I asked for (and got) an EMA transit (EMA have never refused me a VFR transit). I must say, given the poor viz, that I was glad of the radar service, EMA pointed out several contacts (one a mile away) that we never saw. It's strange that some people have the attitude that Class D airspace is to be avoided at all costs! Having a radar service (even if it is only formally a FIS) must be a big improvement to safety. You only have to ask!

[Pudnucker]

Atco/CHillie

Atco/Chillie,

Probably not the right thread to make the point ref more controlled airspace = more chance of VFR nearmisses/collisions.. But whow you can call that comment utter tosh is beyond me. In my humble opinion - more CAS = less class G = more VFR a/c trying to use a smaller parcel of airspace. For example, 2 weeks ago I was in the "Popham Gap". Asked for a RIS then a FIS - both unavailable due to controller workload but was warned that he had 25 a/c on his scope and to keep a bloody good eye out. Wonderful - now how do you justify my comment as being utter tosh...?

Another time asking for a zone transit across a well known lump of class D on the south coast - again none available due to controller workload. All VFR traffic routed around - again lots of VFR a/c in very small bits of airspace. Can you again justify this?

[llanfairpg]

According to sources the Luscombe was climbing out of its base airfield--the other aircraft apparently reported that it was an altitude of 1800 feet (presumably on QNH) when it was hit.

According to many people who were flying in the area the visibillity was reduced by haze.

Looking at the chart for the area, which is a busy piece of airspace with N/S transits, it has an ATZ, 2 or 3 private sites a glider site and a couple of microlight sites.

The FIR extends to FL045

Interesting set of circumstances dont you think?

[blue up]

Watched Red Arrows land here some years ago. They gave a puff of smoke as they each turned onto base leg. Smart idea! You can suddenly pick them out much more clearly.
On my (private) plane there is no facility for electrics (therefore no strobes, radio, Txpr or Mode S) but there is a nice hole in the silencer where a drop of diesel could be injected. I wonder if we'd be better off spending more time legislating towards improvements that help "mk1 eyeball" rather than fancy electronic kit that may work most of the time?
My day job involves flying 767s, so I'm familiar with the fantastic TCAS that would probably have saved these lives had they been able to carry the $1000,000 / 10kg of kit that they'd need to bring it up to 767 level.

If anyone has experience of using smoke generating kit (pref UK) then I'd be grateful for a pm so I can pose a couple of tech questions.

Also, whilst I'm thinking, has there ever been an in-depth study of colours/markings for best visibility? I know Hawks are Black these days and that D-Day stripes are quite effective but is it true that yellow is not a good colour for spotting?

[Chilli Monster]

Pudnucker

I'm not going to get into a pi$$ing contest over this - how other units handle traffic is their concern. I stand by what I said. I possibly worked "wet wet wet" during his transit - no problems as he says. I was also in the approach room fielding the phones during this incident (having only just come out of the radar position). Take it from someone who was there at the time - it made very little, if any, difference.

[llanfairpg]

Steep Turns (I believe they are called "Advanced" Turns now!) are in the PPL Syllabus but Emergency Avoiding Action turns are not.

Bob, the emergency avoiding turn has been in my syllabus since 1982. In this case it seems the other aircraft came from below so an a turn may not have been of much use

[llanfairpg]

Another time asking for a zone transit across a well known lump of class D on the south coast - again none available due to controller workload. All VFR traffic routed around - again lots of VFR a/c in very small bits of airspace. Can you again justify this?

Yes controlled airspace is there to protect IFR traffic, which is mostly the public transport of the travelling public. Amateur PPLs flying VFR in 2 & 4 seat aircraft are not a priority. Please do not take that comment as criticism but as an obseravation of how the system works and must work.

I believe that the last mid-air in IMC in the UK was in WW2. Mid-airs seem to happen invariably in VMC. I'm not sure what that tells you about IFR vs VFR - the big sky theory might just work better in IMC...

Tim

Have you heard that old one about not flying in Indian territory. Flight under 3000 feet is where you meet all the Cherokees!!!

Seems to be some magic about 2000 feet, all PPLs seem to opt to fly around this altitude even when higher levels are available.

Think you will find most air to airs have occured below 3000 feet

[mickjoebill]

Blue up,
Great idea but I fear that it will be seen as contributing to global warming in a very public way.


How about creating a trail using water?

Would be wonderfull to create an effect that was "pretty" and interesting to view for those on the ground..


Mickjoebill

[llanfairpg]

Unbelievable!